FUNi's S1 FAQ is shit and here is why (56k warning):

[RC315]

It would make more sense if the box set was intended for a Blu-ray Disc or HD-DVD release. They should have attempted that, and plan a release with Full Screen on DVD.

[DBW]

Most definately. They should have just finished their Ultimate Uncut now, and then sprung this widescreen crap on us in a couple of years when they're actually ready for a true HD release on a true HD format. I personally still wouldn't agree with the choice, but it would be a lot easier to understand why they would make a widescreen print in 1080p. At the moment it's all just going to waste on standard DVD (most likely to be viewed on SDTV's).

[Kendamu]

Anyways, I'm really not fighting poeple who want to purchase this set, as you seem to think. You're right that you should probably just buy it, since this is most likely to be FUNi's last DBZ effort (at least for a long time). You're well aware of what this set includes, as well as your options, so yeah, just go ahead and buy it if you want.

What I'm fighting is the business descisions made by FUNimation. I disagree with what they're doing, and I'm upset by their PR spin. I'm not angry at the consumer.

For what I've quoted here, I think we're on the same boat. The sets themselves don't piss me off. I know what they entail and I understand the actual "remastering" process and the DVD's contents. Realy, if I compare it to all other American releases I actually kind of like it. However, one of the main reasons I am not going to buy it is because of the PR spin.

[b_boult]

Anyways, I'm really not fighting poeple who want to purchase this set, as you seem to think. You're right that you should probably just buy it, since this is most likely to be FUNi's last DBZ effort (at least for a long time). You're well aware of what this set includes, as well as your options, so yeah, just go ahead and buy it if you want.

What I'm fighting is the business descisions made by FUNimation. I disagree with what they're doing, and I'm upset by their PR spin. I'm not angry at the consumer.

For what I've quoted here, I think we're on the same boat. The sets themselves don't piss me off. I know what they entail and I understand the actual "remastering" process and the DVD's contents. Realy, if I compare it to all other American releases I actually kind of like it. However, one of the main reasons I am not going to buy it is because of the PR spin.

This doesn't make any sense. There isn't a company on earth that doesn't try to make their product sound better than it actually is, and the fact you're basing part of your decision not to buy the set on this is retarded I'm afraid, especially when by your own admission the sets themselves aren't all that bad.

[MajinVejitaXV]

This doesn't make any sense. There isn't a company on earth that doesn't try to make their product sound better than it actually is, and the fact you're basing part of your decision not to buy the set on this is retarded I'm afraid, especially when by your own admission the sets themselves aren't all that bad.

There's a difference between advertising hype (Consistent presentation, mastered in 1080p, etc.) and blatant lies (original Japanese film master, way it was meant to be seen, justification by overscan, etc.) though.

Advertising I can deal with. Being lied to I can deal with also, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna shell out my money to that company/person. The fact that FUNi can't just come out and say, "We think it looks better this way, so that's why we did it," and instead chooses to throw out $5 words to try and give a fancy explanation (that makes no sense, kinda like 'The Fast and the Furious' equivalent of explanations) makes them asses on this release in my opinion.

It's sad really. This could have been a Dodge Viper SRT-10, but now it's a busted-ass Ford Pinto because FUNi had to cut corners ;p

-Corey

[b_boult]

This doesn't make any sense. There isn't a company on earth that doesn't try to make their product sound better than it actually is, and the fact you're basing part of your decision not to buy the set on this is retarded I'm afraid, especially when by your own admission the sets themselves aren't all that bad.

There's a difference between advertising hype (Consistent presentation, mastered in 1080p, etc.) and blatant lies (original Japanese film master, way it was meant to be seen, justification by overscan, etc.) though.

Advertising I can deal with. Being lied to I can deal with also, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna shell out my money to that company/person. The fact that FUNi can't just come out and say, "We think it looks better this way, so that's why we did it," and instead chooses to throw out $5 words to try and give a fancy explanation (that makes no sense, kinda like 'The Fast and the Furious' equivalent of explanations) makes them asses on this release in my opinion.

It's sad really. This could have been a Dodge Viper SRT-10, but now it's a busted-ass Ford Pinto because FUNi had to cut corners ;p

-Corey

Blatent lies indeed. Jesus.

"The way it was meant to be seen" is being taken far too literally. It's only a slogan, they're almost certainly not referring to the widescreen issue, and instead the clean up job they're doing on it. Also these probably are Funimation's "original japanese film masters", there's no "lie" here per se, unless you choose to see it as such. Also the overscan issue isn't exactly lied about, they are telling the truth to a point, although they are presenting largely irrelevant information in an attempt to make out they know what they're doing, even if it doesn't address the main problem people have with the widescreen issue, i.e the misframing. They're being evasive here, and that's about it.

I must say I'm not particularly happy with the widescreen issue either, infact the nerd in me is making me care far too much about it to be honest, and seeing you guys post your criticisms only exasserbates the problem. But if you get a hold of yourself for a moment, the whole issue has been blown completely out of proportion. Yeah, the animation is slightly misframed, but really in the grand scheme of things so what? And before one of you comes back with another "It matters because" laundry list, you needn't bother, as the arguments have already been said a hundred times over, and I've read them all. Leave your instinct to defend a 4:3 aspect ratio for five seconds and you might see I'm coming from. A few pixels are being lost from a cartoon. Irrespective of how important you think they are, or how the "directors intended vision" is being lost (this one cracks me up), it really isn't a big deal at all. As long as the transfer looks clean and vibrant, as long as you can still see the fight sequences (if you can forget the dastardly omission of those few pixels, that is), and couple this with the choice of multiple audio tracks, this set will be great. And to address the issue of the quad-frame for example, I believe even this will look ok in the final product. Admittedly, it will probably look a little more distorted than other frames, but this is going to be the exception rather than the rule, and it makes me laugh how a large part of this firestorm originates from that single frame, a frame which is very unreflective on 99.9% of the rest of the show.

Honestly guys I'm not trying to confrontational or anything, but stop for a moment (and I do mean stop here, don't go into automatic "must defend myself" mode) and consider how healthy your obsession with this issue really is.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Blatent lies indeed. Jesus.

Yes, so I'm told.

...wait, you didn't mean I look like Jesus, you were using it as an exclaimation? Oops...

Anyway, just as you're tired of the arguments some of us are making, I'm tired of the arguments I've seen from the other side.

"It's just a cartoon" is a pretty goofy argument when you're posting on a board created for the sole purpose of discussing the cartoon itself. Not to mention, it's so damn obvious that its annoying. Yes, Dragon Ball is a cartoon. It's also fiction while you're at it. Just as you're just one person, FUNimation is just one company, this board is on just one server, it's in just one language, ad infinitum. ANYTHING can be made to seem insignificant in the larger scope of things. Does that mean no one should care?

Besides, the way you make it sound it's as if some of us are losing sleep at night over this. I post about this when I'm here, laugh about it with my girlfriend for a minute if she is in the room, then I go back to any number of other things. I don't see how that could be defined as 'obsession' in my own case (now, the fact that I own a Jericho 941 because Spike Spiegel uses one in Cowboy Bebop might be borderline, but in my defense it's a nice pistol ;p).

As for your other issues (and yes, I'm going to counter them, but not with a 'laundry list'), it's a simple matter of FUNimation's track record with this series. FUNimation has a history of not being 100% with the fanbase (call it lying, call it "being evasive," call it whatever you will), and I feel like this is just the latest. Either FUNimation's production team is ignorant of the terms being used (which means they're in the wrong profession), or they are purposefully misleading/lying to the fans. Does it bother me?

Well, yeah.

Does it mean I'm gonna boycott all FUNi products or tell others to? No, I just bought all of Samurai 7 and Blue Gender in the past two months.

Does it mean I'm gonna go to Ft. Worth and burn FUNimation to the ground when I go visit my cousin in 3-4 months? No (though I did ask Blue for a tour and was told since Navarre took over they can't because of insurance).

Does it mean any number of other outrageously stupid things? No.

I'm bitching about a DVD release. A stupid DVD release where a stupid mistake was made. Hell, I bitch for a living (I'm an A/R Rep who debates with medical insurance companies for hours at a time, and as a result I bring in $100k+ a month to my group of doctors) and I'm good at it. In this case, I gain nothing to be 100% honest with you. FUNi fixes it, I'm still not buying it. I'm just trying to argue for the sake of those who can't afford to buy DragonBoxes or other imports (hell, I could hardly do so myself, I'm not rich by any means) because I am one of you. I'm the guy who bought about 20 FUNi DVD's, then sold them to EB Games for a fraction of what I paid. I'm the guy who bought uncut VHS because it was the only means to get the animation uncut because FUNi was "never going to be able to do DVD's." I'm tired of seeing the fans get fucked over, just like I'm tired of seeing insurance companies at work take people's premiums then give half-assed illogical reasons for not paying benefits.

So I ask in turn, what do you lose by me voicing my opinion? At the very least, I've shown FUNi is making a questionable attempt to justify a stupid change. Yeah, you can excuse anything they've said if you try hard enough (i.e. - "Oh, maybe the meant their original film masters...", because that's obviously the conclusion everyone jumped to), but some people have genuinely appreciated my work and said they aren't buying these because they feel FUNi made a stupid move and then proceeded to try and explain their decision inadequately. Who knows? Maybe the sky will turn neon green, hamburgers will start singing motown tunes and FUNi won't have done work on the episodes beyond the first release. Nothing is lost by making yourself heard, I put about 10 minutes of work into this thread's initial post which is nothing to me.

Look, I like Dragon Ball. It's the first anime I got into. To me, it's a classic. I've watched it for about 11 years now, first as a dub and then as the original unadulterated Japanese and I enjoy it to this day. It's not the highest budgeted, most carefully animated, most skillfully scored anime in the history of man, but it's fine as it is. No one needs to come in and play with it, it's been successful for 20 years. It's like a well maintained car.

And FUNi is like the 17 year old kid who takes that well maintained car and puts 21" spinner rims, an aluminum wing (did I mention the car is FWD?) and obnoxious 'NOS' decals on it (despite not having a Nitrous Oxide system). Is it gonna end the world? No, but that doesn't mean it's not fucking stupid ;p

-Corey

[Duo]

-When I first typed this, MajinVejita's post hadn't been put up yet. This is in direct response to the post above his-

How obesessive is it? So they've typed up a few posts and gathered a few screenshots. That doesn't merit the word "obsessed" at all. "Interested" is more like it.

Just because I'm willing to buy this doesn't mean I'm completely happy, even if I have little to say about it. You'd think that after so many years they could start handling the Dragonball property correctly, but it's always something. I'm passed the dubbing as should everyone else, but this is pretty disgusting.

But my point is that these guys aren't vesting hours and hours and hours to this, just a few minutes everyday. That's not obsessive.

[Blitzen]

MY GIRLFRIEND MY GUN CAR ANALOGY DRAGONBOX

Fuck this for a joke.

[MajinVejitaXV]

MY GIRLFRIEND MY GUN CAR ANALOGY DRAGONBOX

Fuck this for a joke.

You forgot my Jesus joke, on account of my beautiful hair and all

-Corey

P.S. - Can you repost that in English, I dunno if you're saying I should fuck my girlfriend, my gun, my car analogy and my DragonBoxes (which, ouch, the holes in the DVD's aren't nearly big enough) or if my jokes sucked which...well, yeah. Duh.

[Kendamu]

This doesn't make any sense. There isn't a company on earth that doesn't try to make their product sound better than it actually is, and the fact you're basing part of your decision not to buy the set on this is retarded I'm afraid, especially when by your own admission the sets themselves aren't all that bad.

Okay. So, FUNi says "remastered" and gives me grainy, saturated crap they they put in "widescreen" to cut corners and save cash while Toei says "remastered" and gives me art work that actually was cleaned up and looks really good because of the film source they used. I'm not going to argue the definition of "is" with you. One of those two companies actually did remaster Dragonball Z and didn't cut corners. Can you guess which one?

[edit]BTW: This doesn't mean I' going to say "screw FUNi" for the rest of eternity on anything released. I like their FMA stuff, their Conan stuff, and I'm interested in their Lupin III stuff. It's just in the case of Dragonball that I'm not liking FUNi's latest work (or a lot of their past work). Me not buying Dragonball Z DVDs is something I've been doing for as long as Dragonball Z DVDs have existed (minus Pioneer's DVDs of the firsxt three movies).

That, and I'm learning Japanese, anyway, and most people I watch Dragonball Z with know Japanese or are Japanese. So, why buy a lower-quality set just to have subtitles and dubs that aren't necessary?

[DBW]

@ b_boult
Like I said earlier it's a matter of principle for me. I disagree with the decision for widescreen, and I don't like the PR surrounding this release. And no, not every company spins crazy lies and half-truths. I'd say 95% of my DVD collection is exactly what it was advertised to be.

Yeah, the animation is slightly misframed, but really in the grand scheme of things so what?

The "so what" explaination is really overused and tired, guys. You may think it's obsessive to make counter-points to FUNimation's PR, but I think it's lazy to nonchalantly say "so what" to relevant issues.

"Yeah, Harmony Gold changed Goku's name to Zero, but in the grand scheme of things, so what?"

If you don't care about the framing, or even prefer the widescreen, that's great. I won't fault anybody for their personal preference. But don't play the "I don't care and therefore it doesn't matter" card against us. This isn't a DBZ fan vs DBZ fan issue, it's DBZ fan vs FUNimation. As XV already said:
"So I ask in turn, what do you lose by me voicing my opinion?"

A few pixels are being lost from a cartoon.

My issue was never loss of pixels. By framing the image for widescreen, the presentation becomes incorrect. Even if they were gaining 50% more image, it's irrelevant. The image must be framed for 4:3, otherwise the action is misaligned. If the storyboards and layouts are created for 4:3, then the series must also be framed for 4:3, and anybody whose ever dealt with animation, film or video in any capacity would have to agree.

Just look at these images I posted earlier, which show pixel loss...
Raw:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... are1-A.jpg
Remastered:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... are1-B.jpg

By catching more vertical image, they exceeded the horizontal boundaries. If you look at the raw image you can just see the curvature of the 16mm frame in the bottom corners. They corrected this by tightening the horizontal frame with black bars, thus losing some of the image. It does not matter, though, because they framed the shot according to the layout art, as it was intended to be.

To me, clipping the vertical action in order to catch more horizontal dead-space is insane. I don't care if the extra footage exists, because it's just scrap. Hell, they could dig through art archives and find 20 foot long background art from a pan shot, but it doesn't mean that we have to see it all.

/end laundry list.

By the way, while we go back and forth on the framing issue, does anybody know any other details yet? Do they now have the correct opening animation for eps 1-21? Do they have credits? Next episode peviews?

[Eclipse]

By the way, while we go back and forth on the framing issue, does anybody know any other details yet? Do they now have the correct opening animation for eps 1-21? Do they have credits? Next episode peviews?

They haven't said =P If only they had those questions in their ''FAQ''!

I'm thinking...is it possible for those who own Dragon Boxes to upload a small clip and have it cropped? The pictures are all fine and dandy, but like someone said in the earlier thread, we'll only know for sure when we see those pictures in motion.

So..?

[Kula]

I don't know if this has been answered, but how does the new cropping compare to Funi's previous 'zoomed in' footage? Are we getting more or less footage than Funi's previous DVDs?

[b_boult]

"It's just a cartoon" is a pretty goofy argument when you're posting on a board created for the sole purpose of discussing the cartoon itself.

Yeah well I enjoy the show and like discussing the show, there's nothing wrong with that. However the line should be firmly drawn here, because at the end of the day it IS just a show, and whereas the average person wouldn't care about a tiny bit of footage being removed, with you and a few others it's become some kind of hate crime, and on reflection the entire frenzy over it has been completely pointless. And I admit, I was getting sucked in there for a while.

I post about this when I'm here, laugh about it with my girlfriend for a minute if she is in the room, then I go back to any number of other things. I don't see how that could be defined as 'obsession' in my own case

You joke about FUNimation cropping a release of DragonballZ with your GIRLFRIEND? Infact I even recall from an earlier thread that you tried to get her into it or something. You seriously don't call that obsessed?

I'm just trying to argue for the sake of those who can't afford to buy DragonBoxes or other imports (hell, I could hardly do so myself, I'm not rich by any means) because I am one of you.

This is like some badly worded election campaign commercial. But thanks anyway, I'll be able to sleep easy tonight.

[Conan the SSJ]

I don't know if this has been answered, but how does the new cropping compare to Funi's previous 'zoomed in' footage? Are we getting more or less footage than Funi's previous DVDs?

By the looks of the Kaio/Gregory comparison FUNi put up, the "zoomed-in" full-screen version has slightly more on the top and bottom, but a lot less on the sides of the screen than even the Dragonbox version (and this wide-screen will make it so that even more of the sides of the screen will be present). I guess since FUNi were unwilling to pay enough to get rid of the present glue, they figure cropping rather than zooming-in would keep as much of the picture as possible. I guess we'll see how it turns out with the February release.

Yeah well I enjoy the show and like discussing the show, there's nothing wrong with that. However the line should be firmly drawn here, because at the end of the day it IS just a show, and whereas the average person wouldn't care about a tiny bit of footage being removed, with you and a few others it's become some kind of hate crime, and on reflection the entire frenzy over it has been completely pointless. And I admit, I was getting sucked in there for a while.

b-boult, I'll say this once. I am on your side about wanting to get these sets once no question. But seriously listen to yourself, Corey and DBW aren't really complaining much about the wide-screen issue anymore. It's now more about the factor of FUNi "misleading the public" in manners such as "original film and overscanning". They aren't making out the cropped footage like it's a hate crime, hell if they were, I'd ask what they think of the original trilogy release of Star Wars on DVD. Let them speak their minds like they have the right to.

Though Corey could lay off the hundreds of "I got a girlfriend and all the Dragonboxes" stuff for a couple seconds. We get the message, you got a hot girlfriend and the best visual release of DragonBall, and you're really proud! So give us a break from the constant reminders (no offense intended)?

[MajinVejitaXV]

Yeah well I enjoy the show and like discussing the show, there's nothing wrong with that. However the line should be firmly drawn here, because at the end of the day it IS just a show, and whereas the average person wouldn't care about a tiny bit of footage being removed, with you and a few others it's become some kind of hate crime, and on reflection the entire frenzy over it has been completely pointless. And I admit, I was getting sucked in there for a while.

Ah, and here I thought people threw a fit for a long time about pan-and-scan, hence widescreen releases becoming more prominent in the 90's and such. Besides, what is your point? You want them to crop the series, or you're just so indifferent that you have to voice your indifference?

"Hey, everyone! Look at me! I don't care, LOL!"

You joke about FUNimation cropping a release of DragonballZ with your GIRLFRIEND? Infact I even recall from an earlier thread that you tried to get her into it or something. You seriously don't call that obsessed?

...You don't share your interests with your girlfriend? That must be a boring relationship. I share music, movies and other hobbies including the handful of anime I like.

Besides, what am I supposed to do? Tell her to go away when she comes up behind me and asks what I'm doing in Photoshop?

"No, I can't tell you! It'd mean I was obsessed, don't you know that woman!?"

This is like some badly worded election campaign commercial. But thanks anyway, I'll be able to sleep easy tonight.

I'm trying to muster up some concern for any of what you've posted but...I just can't seem to. You don't care, we get it.

I bitch about FUNi's stupid choices on this release, you bitch about me bitching. Way to waste your time.

Though Corey could lay off the hundreds of "I got a girlfriend and all the Dragonboxes" stuff for a couple seconds. We get the message, you got a hot girlfriend and the best visual release of DragonBall, and you're really proud! So give us a break from the constant reminders (no offense intended)?

I'm sorry. I was just talking to my girlfriend while watching my DragonBoxes and my girlfriend commented on how I owned the DragonBoxes and I said, "Girlfriend, you are right. DragonBoxes a-plenty." Did I mention she's my girlfriend? And the DragonBoxes? ;p

Nah, I'm sorry. She moved in two weeks ago, so I find myself mentioning her more often recently without consciously intending to. I'm not trying to annoy the piss out of people, though I'm sure I do for a host of different reasons

-Corey


P.S. - Vote for me, and I’ll make all your wildest dreams come true.

[Gokuden553]

These images in this site came to mind when I read this topic...

http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name ... &artid=617

[Kendamu]

Wow! The clarity of that second image! I think it's burning my eyes or something.

I'm so used to seeing Dragonball as if I had sand in my eyes.

[Sebastian (SB)]

....Corey, you're a funny guy.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with everything that's been said, until then I'll hold off for a little while to see where these sets are going & maybe some Spanish remasters will keep me busy.