Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[Cursed Lemon]

I mean they specified that #16-18 have infinite energy. So uh yeah 17 training in his downtime and getting a lot stronger than what we saw him 13 years ago (in-universe) isn’t anywhere near ridiculous as your example.


Making straw man arguments isn’t doing you any favors.

I apparently live in a universe where an analogy and a straw man are the same thing. Alright.

The infinite energy stipulation means absolutely nothing with regard to strength because that would mean they are infinitely strong. Which I know you already know. So it begs the question of why you would bring that up aside to be weirdly contrarian.

And really? He trained even harder than Goku and Vegeta and did so without an even mildly competent fighter around for miles, any kind of special training regimen like an increased gravity environment, or guidance from a superior master?

It's. Stupid.

[Peach]

I wouldn't say the focus on Saiyans has necessarily ruined the series. It's the focus on transformations and power over technique and martial arts that is frustrating.

[Zephyr]

Because that's about as ridiculous as 17 getting stronger by several orders of magnitude (can androids even GET stronger?) simply by shooing away poachers for some years.

Oh, that's what you meant. Thanks for actually elaborating on what you were saying to me in a response to somebody else.

What I was getting at was that, since it's fiction, the author can introduce something into the story to power someone up if they wanted to power someone up with an explanation. This was a response to you saying:

it's basically completely impossible to fix the power scaling issue and have guys like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks, even a guy like Piccolo make a big difference

You can have some long lost Oorin Temple spell be found that only a monk of the order can use; or have Krillin be from "the noseless clan" which has some unique power-up. Tenshinhan can have some "three-eyed clan" exclusive power-up if that tidbit ever made its way into the story. Piccolo could find some shit in the Namekian Book of Legends. All of that.....if the author(s) wanted to, and they'd be free to.....because it's fiction. Which means that worldbuilding is never set in stone and new concepts can be introduced to it. Like Goku being revealed as a Saiyan in Story Arc Number Six. Or that species having a legendary powerful state unique to it in the next arc. Or that state having different levels in the arc after that. Etc.

And that's all ignoring the variety of already existing forms of special training and powerups that these characters ostensibly have access to. None of these characters use the Kaioken, few of these characters have trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, nobody's used the Elder Kaioshin's power up, and who knows how much other shit I'm missing.

It's hardly impossible to catch these characters up in a way that would satisfy fans who need their explanations, and that shouldn't even warrant so much elaboration. It's very clearly the case that the authors don't really care about catching most of the cast up, otherwise they would have done so already, with or without a 'plausible' explanation.

#17's power up in Super has nothing to do with any of what I'm talking about, because they didn't give any explanation for it, and you might have realized this sooner if you would have just said that you needed me to elaborate instead of aggressively shitposting.

This conversation reminds me of why I stopped posting here as much in the first place.

[super michael]

Because that's about as ridiculous as 17 getting stronger by several orders of magnitude (can androids even GET stronger?) simply by shooing away poachers for some years.

Oh, that's what you meant. Thanks for actually elaborating on what you were saying to me in a response to somebody else.

What I was getting at was that, since it's fiction, the author can introduce something into the story to power someone up if they wanted to power someone up with an explanation. This was a response to you saying:

it's basically completely impossible to fix the power scaling issue and have guys like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks, even a guy like Piccolo make a big difference

You can have some long lost Oorin Temple spell be found that only a monk of the order can use; or have Krillin be from "the noseless clan" which has some unique power-up. Tenshinhan can have some "three-eyed clan" exclusive power-up if that tidbit ever made its way into the story. Piccolo could find some shit in the Namekian Book of Legends. All of that.....if the author(s) wanted to, and they'd be free to.....because it's fiction. Which means that worldbuilding is never set in stone and new concepts can be introduced to it. Like Goku being revealed as a Saiyan in Story Arc Number Six. Or that species having a legendary powerful state unique to it in the next arc. Or that state having different levels in the arc after that. Etc.

And that's all ignoring the variety of already existing forms of special training and powerups that these characters ostensibly have access to. None of these characters use the Kaioken, few of these characters have trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, nobody's used the Elder Kaioshin's power up, and who knows how much other shit I'm missing.

It's hardly impossible to catch these characters up in a way that would satisfy fans who need their explanations, and that shouldn't even warrant so much elaboration. It's very clearly the case that the authors don't really care about catching most of the cast up, otherwise they would have done so already, with or without a 'plausible' explanation.

#17's power up in Super has nothing to do with any of what I'm talking about, because they didn't give any explanation for it, and you might have realized this sooner if you would have just said that you needed me to elaborate instead of aggressively shitposting.

This conversation reminds me of why I stopped posting here as much in the first place.

Sadly in the manga they explains what C17 did, which is really bad.

Chapter 36
Piccolo: What sort of training have you been up to, anyway?
C17: What sort...? Just protecting my island.

Chapter 42
Goku: Not just the universes! I mean take #17-- That guy doesn't do much of anything, and he's somehow just about as strong as us.

Yu Yu Hakusho, MHA and Black Clover how the characters powers up, regardless if they are main or side characters is written way better than DBS. Heck Demon Slayer is written better when it comes to training and power up.

[Cursed Lemon]

You can have some long lost Oorin Temple spell be found that only a monk of the order can use; or have Krillin be from "the noseless clan" which has some unique power-up. Tenshinhan can have some "three-eyed clan" exclusive power-up if that tidbit ever made its way into the story. Piccolo could find some shit in the Namekian Book of Legends. All of that.....if the author(s) wanted to, and they'd be free to.....because it's fiction. Which means that worldbuilding is never set in stone and new concepts can be introduced to it. Like Goku being revealed as a Saiyan in Story Arc Number Six. Or that species having a legendary powerful state unique to it in the next arc. Or that state having different levels in the arc after that. Etc.

And that's all ignoring the variety of already existing forms of special training and powerups that these characters ostensibly have access to. None of these characters use the Kaioken, few of these characters have trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, nobody's used the Elder Kaioshin's power up, and who knows how much other shit I'm missing.

It's hardly impossible to catch these characters up in a way that would satisfy fans who need their explanations, and that shouldn't even warrant so much elaboration. It's very clearly the case that the authors don't really care about catching most of the cast up, otherwise they would have done so already, with or without a 'plausible' explanation.

#17's power up in Super has nothing to do with any of what I'm talking about, because they didn't give any explanation for it, and you might have realized this sooner if you would have just said that you needed me to elaborate instead of aggressively shitposting.

This conversation reminds me of why I stopped posting here as much in the first place.

Dude lol Can you pick a point and stick on it please? The conversation thus far:

Me: No one complained about seeing supporting characters involved in the story.

You: What about all these complaints?

Me: They were complaining about the absurd power gains, not the presence of the characters. Krillin's side story was cool and so people sort-of-forgave his asinine rise in strength (as opposed to 17's meteoric do-nothing launch to SSB tier). The power creep is still a problem though.

You: It's not a problem, the author can do whatever they want to bridge the gap and that's fine.

Me: It's not fine, it's insulting to the viewer's intelligence and completely inconsistent with established power conventions, plus it shits on what the strongest characters in the series had to go through in order to get where they are.

You: Well what about including worldbuilding elements?

Me: You mean that Krillin thing I already talked about?

Aggressively shitposting, how about aggressively agreeing which is what so many people on this forum specialize in

[ABED]

Not really? This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever they want to power someone up, and make it logistically exclusive to them in any number of ways. Or, just have them still be far behind bigger hitters like Goku, and still play a role anyway. Which is what happened.

"If the author wants to utilize lampshading and overall bad/nonsensical writing, that's their prerogative" is a terrible argument.

Isn’t lampshading just dumb tv tropes speak for “meta commentary” Seems like that has fuck all to do with what Zephyr said.

Lampshading is a term professional writers use when they point out elements that are overused, cliches, etc. so as to tell the audience, "Yes, we know this element is overused, we're not daft".

Any time valid criticism is given for how most of the rest of the major cast is often poorly utilized or written in general, many fans will screech out "Dragonball is Goku's story" or "Dragonball is not an ensemble" as a way to shut down any criticism as if its an excuse, like not being an ensemble story somehow makes it all okay.

That's not when people use that line. It's when people harp on others taking over as the main character because they say if it were someone else, in effect the problems of the series would go away.

It's funny you say that because the current arc of Dragon Ball Super (Manga) literally does this. A character uses the Dragon Balls to wish to be the strongest in the universe. And, who have guessed it, this plot development had quite a negative impact on the quality of the storytelling for that arc as it lead to the arc becoming just one long fight with no character development or plot progression.

Are you implying that because they used McGuffins to make characters stronger (as if the story hadn't done it plenty of times before and done it fairly well) it makes for a weak story?

Um, DB isn't plot heavy. The fights are the plots.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

Any time valid criticism is given for how most of the rest of the major cast is often poorly utilized or written in general, many fans will screech out "Dragonball is Goku's story" or "Dragonball is not an ensemble" as a way to shut down any criticism as if its an excuse, like not being an ensemble story somehow makes it all okay.

That's not when people use that line. It's when people harp on others taking over as the main character because they say if it were someone else, in effect the problems of the series would go away.

Well, that's when people typically use the line, and it's completely fine there: Anyone who seriously thinks Gohan or Vegeta should be the main character misunderstands the entire show. But I think what people are complaining about is the sentiments expressed near the beginning of the thread, and in many other threads of the same type: As soon as a thread complaining about the side characters being underutilized pops up, certain users instantly jump to the canned response of "It's Goku's story". I just feel like there's a middle ground between "ensemble piece with no main character" and "the side characters only exist to gush over how cool the main character is". And Dragon Ball has been leaning way too heavily into the latter extreme, especially with Super.

It's funny you say that because the current arc of Dragon Ball Super (Manga) literally does this. A character uses the Dragon Balls to wish to be the strongest in the universe. And, who have guessed it, this plot development had quite a negative impact on the quality of the storytelling for that arc as it lead to the arc becoming just one long fight with no character development or plot progression.

Are you implying that because they used McGuffins to make characters stronger (as if the story hadn't done it plenty of times before and done it fairly well) it makes for a weak story?

Um, DB isn't plot heavy. The fights are the plots.

I don't think he was complaining about characters becoming stronger through outside means, or the story being mainly focused on fighting. What he was complaining about, and what has been the biggest flaw of the latest arc, is that the outside means are basically just a lazy excuse to show one long, boring fight scene, with no interesting variation whatsoever. It basically feels like "Some bad dude became the strongest dude through magic balls, and now Goku and Vegeta have to fight him! But uh-oh: The REAL bad dude used those magic balls to become an even STRONGER dude, and now the former bad dude and the new bad dude have to fight each other!" Dragon Ball has always been mostly fight scenes, but you can't deny the previous arcs had much more interesting variation and plot progression than "a fight, followed by another fight".

[ABED]

What example can you show of someone here saying "Goku is the main character" and that no one should get development or focus?

The focus on Goku above all other has NEVER and will never be the problem. This isn't a function of screentime.

but you can't deny the previous arcs had much more interesting variation and plot progression than "a fight, followed by another fight".

That's the Saiyan arc and the tournament arcs in a nutshell.

[super michael]

In X-Men the heroes has access to training simulator and training room, that they can change the level for their training.

C17 getting to SSB by just protecting monster island isn't good writing.
Freeza getting to SSB by beating Tagoma only isn't good writing.
Krillin being able to put pressure on Goku by gym training isn't good writing.
Master Roshi by secret training putting pressure on Goku isn't good writing.

When it comes to creativitiy that is what DBS lacks when it comes to power gains and training. Other anime are greats such as Yu Yu Hakusho, My Hero Academia, Hunter X Hunter and Black Clover.

[MetaMoss]

I'd echo what some other posters are saying with the issue not being so much "focusing too much on the Saiyans" as "underutilizing the supporting cast". It's certainly my biggest issue with the series, and I think it's notable that pretty much every shonen battler that has come after Dragon Ball that I've watched or read handles their casts better, even if their writing overall is worse.

As for the Tournament of Power's handling of power scaling, I was more than willing to accept any sort of hand-waving just to see someone like Kuririn or 17 in the story as something more than glorified cheerleaders. Probably helped that I had very low expectations of Super's writing in general . But at the same time, I'd make the argument that the power scaling has been just plain ridiculous since at least Freeza, if not the Saiyan arc, and that over-reverence to the power scaling has been a primary contributor to this issue of cast sidelining. Hell, Toriyama was doing the wink-and-nudge routine with this power stuff back during Boo.

Basically, I'm saying that I'm willing to forgive a lot just to get Roshi or Tenshinhan back in the game. It's just a damn shame that the arc that was used to pull the trigger on this had a scenario of "slight twist on the generic fighting tournament". I hope that future arcs and Super Hero use this opportunity on something more interesting.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

What example can you show of someone here saying "Goku is the main character" and that no one should get development or focus?

The focus on Goku above all other has NEVER and will never be the problem. This isn't a function of screentime.

I was mainly referring to MasenkoHA's first comments near the beginning of the thread. The OP was basically just saying "I feel like the human characters deserve more important roles," but Masenko's response was, and I quote, "I don't understand the problem. Goku is the main character." He also asked "Do people just expect Krillin to defeat the big bad?", which is just a blatant strawman of the actual argument. Like I said, I feel like there's a happy medium between "Krillin beats the big bad" and "Krillin only exists to gawk at Goku's awesomeness", but it doesn't feel like some users here realize that medium exists.

but you can't deny the previous arcs had much more interesting variation and plot progression than "a fight, followed by another fight".

That's the Saiyan arc and the tournament arcs in a nutshell.

Emphasis on "in a nutshell", though: Those arcs may have been mainly focused on fighting, but there were strong character elements and tons of interesting variation in both of those arcs. I don't see those elements in the latest arc, though. It only really feels like there's one strong character element and one interesting variation in this arc, and both are basically the same thing: It turns out Granolah was a misunderstood anti-hero the whole time, and now they have to fight the REAL bad guys. At least it's better than "no interesting characters or variation", like we got with the Moro arc.

[ABED]

I disagree, I see a lot of good character moments in Super. I haven't read the manga for Super so I can't speak to it. Far too often I see fans turn a blind eye to the interesting shifts in the character and instead focus on "they aren't the focus" or worse yet, they complain about lore and battle powers.

You'd have to ask Masenko, but I don't think that was his point. I also don't think his Kuririn argument was as much an actual argument as much a rhetorical question. What he and I have been saying is that the Saiyans have been a focus of the series for decades so I don't see how this is a new thing or the root of the issue.

In X-Men the heroes has access to training simulator and training room, that they can change the level for their training.

C17 getting to SSB by just protecting monster island isn't good writing.
Freeza getting to SSB by beating Tagoma only isn't good writing.
Krillin being able to put pressure on Goku by gym training isn't good writing.
Master Roshi by secret training putting pressure on Goku isn't good writing.

When it comes to creativitiy that is what DBS lacks when it comes to power gains and training. Other anime are greats such as Yu Yu Hakusho, My Hero Academia, Hunter X Hunter and Black Clover.

Good writing isn't about power levels and math.

[super michael]

I disagree, I see a lot of good character moments in Super. I haven't read the manga for Super so I can't speak to it. Far too often I see fans turn a blind eye to the interesting shifts in the character and instead focus on "they aren't the focus" or worse yet, they complain about lore and battle powers.

You'd have to ask Masenko, but I don't think that was his point. I also don't think his Kuririn argument was as much an actual argument as much a rhetorical question. What he and I have been saying is that the Saiyans have been a focus of the series for decades so I don't see how this is a new thing or the root of the issue.

In X-Men the heroes has access to training simulator and training room, that they can change the level for their training.

C17 getting to SSB by just protecting monster island isn't good writing.
Freeza getting to SSB by beating Tagoma only isn't good writing.
Krillin being able to put pressure on Goku by gym training isn't good writing.
Master Roshi by secret training putting pressure on Goku isn't good writing.

When it comes to creativitiy that is what DBS lacks when it comes to power gains and training. Other anime are greats such as Yu Yu Hakusho, My Hero Academia, Hunter X Hunter and Black Clover.

Good writing isn't about power levels and math.

How about writing interesting ways for characters to get strong and not being lazy by giving them the most boring way to get strong. In DB/DBZ the characters training evolved and changed, which made it interesting.

In DBS the characters training are lame and sounds inferior compared to DB/DBZ. They use the already creative ideas on many character and don't come up with new interesting ways for characters to get strong.

[ABED]

I disagree with some of that. I found Goku and Vegeta's training interesting. How about not getting caught up in that sort of thing at all? What about the characters and the story?

[MasenkoHA]

," but Masenko's response was, and I quote, "I don't understand the problem. Goku is the main character

Yes its almost like the OP said

Many fans are burnt out and tired of saiyans. Since DB the show has been entirely the saiyan show with emphasis solely on saiyans with every other race being squeezed out. Many people in DB:Super have referred to it as the Goku and Vegeta show and dropped the series because their other favorite characters are useless.

When one of the primary complaints is “Dragon Ball Super has too much focus on Goku”’it evidently needs repeating that Goku is the main character and has been since 1984.

" He also asked "Do people just expect Krillin to defeat the big bad?", which is just a blatant strawman of the actual argument. Like I said, I feel like there's a happy medium between "Krillin beats the big bad" and "Krillin only exists to gawk at Goku's awesomeness", but it doesn't feel like some users here realize that medium exists.

You’re right! And not only does Dragon Ball Super give Kuririn his own mini arc to put him back in the game as a martial artist and even address his knack of dying or almost dying a lot (something the original series pretty much glossed over) and how that might impact him mentally they even give more attention to his relationship with 18 than the Buu saga ever did! And that still wasn’t good enough! Hence the rhetorical question!

Like I can’t stress how much better Super has been at giving stuff to the supporting cast compared to late era Z Dragon Ball. Super’s got a metric crapton of flaws but pretending characters outside of Goku and Vegeta don’t exist wasn’t one of them.

Good writing isn't about power levels and math.

Feels like a fools errand trying to explain that to Dragon Ball fans who mostly have decided to treat the franchise like a video game and a math equation.

[super michael]

I disagree with some of that. I found Goku and Vegeta's training interesting. How about not getting caught up in that sort of thing at all? What about the characters and the story?

Goku and Vegeta training are interesting, there is no denying that. I am talking about the humans/cyborgs/Freeza. Krillin generic gym training has better feats than Gotenks. Master Roshi training in the 21st Martial Art Tournament is more interesting than hearing Krillin gym training.

C17 didn't even train in the manga. He got to SSB without training at all and just protecting the island. It doesn't explain why his future counterpart who didn't train didn't get to SSB level.

Edit how hard is it to come up with creative idea for characters to power up? Training simulator, hologram training, training room, ancient text, different alien techniques, objects for unique training, etc. There the ROSAT and Gravity Chamber that exist, there is Elder Kaioshin that exist. Heck there GoD and Angel, maybe have them give a object or room to train.

[ABED]

I don't think future 17 trained. He was a psychopath who liked death and destruction.

[super michael]

I don't think future 17 trained. He was a psychopath who liked death and destruction.

I don't believe Future C17 trained, but Present C17 was mentioned to not train.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't think future 17 trained. He was a psychopath who liked death and destruction.

I don't believe Future C17 trained, but Present C17 was mentioned to not train.

Goku: I’m surprised you’re this strong
17: It’s not like I’ve just been spending my time relaxing

[super michael]

I don't think future 17 trained. He was a psychopath who liked death and destruction.

I don't believe Future C17 trained, but Present C17 was mentioned to not train.

Goku: I’m surprised you’re this strong
17: It’s not like I’ve just been spending my time relaxing

What chapter did you find this quote?
Here is the quote I found in the manga of DBS:


Chapter 36
Piccolo: What sort of training have you been up to, anyway?
C17: What sort...? Just protecting my island.

Chapter 42
Goku: Not just the universes! I mean take #17-- That guy doesn't do much of anything, and he's somehow just about as strong as us.

The only thing C17 does is protect the island from poachers who are normal humans. Future C17 was hunting humans down, yet he didn't get much powers from doing so.