What do you think are some of the worst retcons in the series?

[ABED]

I don't care if I'm the only person. Having large numbers agree doesn't make it correct. It's ridiculous to consider them reveals because the whole point of the definition was to make it distinct.

Unfortunately the entire point of language is that we have a collection of meaningful units, and those meanings are for the most part, shared, while there are a whole heap of other considerations (dialect, culture, semantic change over time) the entire idea is that it's mutually intelligible. Otherwise we're just garbling these arbitrary sounds and scrawling meaningless symbols at one another. Look, I'm the last person to correct anyone on the "proper" way to speak or write (an undergraduate in Linguistics turned me into a descriptivist hippie if anything) provided we understand one another, that's the human experience, that's language.

... But, stubbornly insisting on your own personal definition of what is a really unambiguous fairly straight forward concept is a bit much mate. If this nuance exists, coin a term for it! but you can't approach any form of discourse like this and be surprised when people call you out on it.

Nope, the point of language isn't simply to communicate, but of cognition. If our concepts aren't clear, our thinking isn't clear. It's more than a communal idea. This isn't a personal definition. It was how it was originally defined and some still properly define it. People did coin a term for it - RETCON. Suppose somehow I did coin a term that caught on, what if the same crap happens and people mangle it?

You all are clinging to a clearly awful definition and you don't have to because as we saw, there are multiple, mate.

"Provided we understand each other" BINGO! Since the word has been mangled, we don't understand each other. The word is now not as straightforward as you are claiming, at least not anymore.

And for any other person who wants to come along and yet again tell me that language changes, I know already but it's not always for the better. If you can acknowledge that, why are you fighting me on this? What good does the new definition do if it mangles the original more specific intent? At that point you're just clinging to change for the sake of change. I refuse to use reboot when I mean revival just because "language changes, mate".

[PurestEvil]

Finally, someone else shares the view that Goku being an alien is a revelation and NOT a retcon.
Toriyama may not have intended for Goku to be an alien from the start, but it is likely it was because he either didn't know what to make of that issue initially or he didn't want to think about it at that moment and deliberately addressed it when he felt most comfortable.
Considering how anthro-animals exist in the DB world, Goku not being of the Homo sapiens species would never have been a wild speculation.

[pixie_misa]

And for any other person who wants to come along and yet again tell me that language changes, I know already but it's not always for the better. If you can acknowledge that, why are you fighting me on this? What good does the new definition do if it mangles the original more specific intent? At that point you're just clinging to change for the sake of change. I refuse to use reboot when I mean revival just because "language changes, mate".

Look, semantics ain't a hill worth dying on

Language doesn't evolve "for the better", it just evolves. It's going to shift regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of it. You can either argue about it all day or you can adapt to the language people around you are actually using. The latter sounds a lot more productive to me.

[ABED]

And for any other person who wants to come along and yet again tell me that language changes, I know already but it's not always for the better. If you can acknowledge that, why are you fighting me on this? What good does the new definition do if it mangles the original more specific intent? At that point you're just clinging to change for the sake of change. I refuse to use reboot when I mean revival just because "language changes, mate".

Look, semantics ain't a hill worth dying on

Language doesn't evolve "for the better", it just evolves. It's going to shift regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of it. You can either argue about it all day or you can adapt to the language people around you are actually using. The latter sounds a lot more productive to me.

But people are usiing MULTIPLE definitions. So which one do I use? And therein lies a big problem I have with all of you jumping on me for this. You make it sound like everyone I'm disagreeing with is in agreement about the way it's currently used but just looking at this thread even without me there isn't agreement about what it means. Some have said retcons are any change to the past. Some have said it's about the original intent of the writer(s). Which of all these are true?

Semantics IS a hill worth dying on. Language matters.

Again, evolution implies progress. This isn't progress.

Finally, someone else shares the view that Goku being an alien is a revelation and NOT a retcon.
Toriyama may not have intended for Goku to be an alien from the start, but it is likely it was because he either didn't know what to make of that issue initially or he didn't want to think about it at that moment and deliberately addressed it when he felt most comfortable.
Considering how anthro-animals exist in the DB world, Goku not being of the Homo sapiens species would never have been a wild speculation.

I think it's Oolong who wonders whether Goku is an alien after seeing him become Oozaru.

[pixie_misa]

And for any other person who wants to come along and yet again tell me that language changes, I know already but it's not always for the better. If you can acknowledge that, why are you fighting me on this? What good does the new definition do if it mangles the original more specific intent? At that point you're just clinging to change for the sake of change. I refuse to use reboot when I mean revival just because "language changes, mate".

Look, semantics ain't a hill worth dying on

Language doesn't evolve "for the better", it just evolves. It's going to shift regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of it. You can either argue about it all day or you can adapt to the language people around you are actually using. The latter sounds a lot more productive to me.

But people are usiing MULTIPLE definitions. So which one do I use?

I don't know, I don't really care, I don't think it matters all that much because the definitions people were posting all have a lot of overlap anyways.

Semantics IS a hill worth dying on. Language matters.

If you say so I guess. Have fun with that.

Again, evolution implies progress. This isn't progress.

I guess I can be as pedantic as anybody else here and say evolution does *not* imply progress. That's a misconception. Things simply change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, sometimes in completely neutral ways.

[Captain Awesome]

Nope, the point of language isn't simply to communicate, but of cognition.

Oh! Something else you’ve made up on your own to lecture us about. You’re on a roll here mate! I’ll throw out my textbooks then. Wish I’d known about you before I racked up all of that pesky student debt!

People here humour you. I hope you know that.

[ABED]

Nope, the point of language isn't simply to communicate, but of cognition.

Oh! Something else you’ve made up on your own to lecture us about. You’re on a roll here mate! I’ll throw out my textbooks then. Wish I’d known about you before I racked up all of that pesky student debt!

People here humour you. I hope you know that.

Nice appeal to authority. Communication is a biproduct of language, not its primary function. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that a college would teach people that something like language is primarily some collective function and not about the individual.

I don't know, I don't really care, I don't think it matters all that much because the definitions people were posting all have a lot of overlap anyways.

Of course they do, but the parts where they don't are the issue.

I guess I can be as pedantic as anybody else here and say evolution does *not* imply progress. That's a misconception. Things simply change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, sometimes in completely neutral ways.

Evolution isn't a mere synonym for change. It's a specific kind of change. If something changes for the worse, then the solution is to change it for the better.

[pixie_misa]

Nope, the point of language isn't simply to communicate, but of cognition.

Oh! Something else you’ve made up on your own to lecture us about. You’re on a roll here mate! I’ll throw out my textbooks then. Wish I’d known about you before I racked up all of that pesky student debt!

People here humour you. I hope you know that.

Nice appeal to authority.

Citing relevant education isn't an "appeal to authority." It's completely germane to the subject at hand. That's absolutely not what appeal to authority means.

[ABED]

Oh! Something else you’ve made up on your own to lecture us about. You’re on a roll here mate! I’ll throw out my textbooks then. Wish I’d known about you before I racked up all of that pesky student debt!

People here humour you. I hope you know that.

Nice appeal to authority.

Citing relevant education isn't an "appeal to authority." It's completely germane to the subject at hand. That's absolutely not what appeal to authority means.

When you do that to put an end to the conversation, that's appeal to authority. The first time was fine because it expanded the conversation. This time it was the opposite.

Anyway, the change of Goku's backstory where he's now Saiyan Kal-El is the one that bothers me the most because it undercuts the point of the Saiyan arc at its core.

[pixie_misa]

Communication is a biproduct of language, not its primary function. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that a college would teach people that something like language is primarily some collective function and not about the individual.

Oh I see. Someone's got an axe to grind.

[ABED]

Enough about me. Back to Dragon Ball. RoF's reveal that Freeza did what he did under threat from a GoD is another that is among DB's worst offenders.

[MasenkoHA]

Enough about me. Back to Dragon Ball. RoF's reveal that Freeza did what he did under threat from a GoD is another that is among DB's worst offenders.

It was a very pointless joke. Retroactively making the Freeza arc a farce.

[ABED]

I don't know if I'd put it in those terms, but basically yes. If Vegeta knows there's someone out there who can make Freeza look like a chump, you'd think he'd make that his goal - to best them.

[super michael]

Future Trunks never having purple/lavender hair and everyone acting like Future Trunks has always had blue hair, including Bulma her past mum.

We have DBZ Future Trunks having purple/lavender hair the entire time, including DBS flash backs but then in Goku Black Saga he has blue hair. Then in the flash black with Future Gohan alive we see Future Trunks with blue hair.

Now we have Future Trunks with blue hair, who never had purple/lavender hair and Present Trunks who always had and has purple/lavender hair. That was a pointless retcon.

In the Buu Saga Gohan and Goku reacted to Krillin having hair, since they always saw him bald.

If they wanted to have the two Trunks have different hair color, maybe they could have made it a point that time travel alters one dna or maybe have Future Trunks dye his hair to remember his mum. A retcon it just pointless.

[TheGreatness25]

It's clear in my mind that the worst retcon in history is making Goku go from a silly, but pretty normal adult, to being... what he is in Super. Why? Why?

[JulieYBM]

Everything is a joke to Toriyama which simultaneously counts when he feels like it does and does not when he does not feel like having it count. It requires breaking literally every piece of the story down and treat it on multiple layers of existing. I believe that his approach to creating stories operates a lot like how Otaku (Japanese fans) simultaneously treat their anime, manga, games and characters as a form of reality unto itself. In this way, the Namek arc is both a dramatic story and a joke after the fact at the same time. It's both, so follow your whims and treat it as such whenever you see fit.

[TheFallenProfit]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

It was stated that Boo's insides negated the magic of the Kais hence why they defused.

I'm surprised by how many people forget this and act like they just defused for no reason.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

It was stated that Boo's insides negated the magic of the Kais hence why they defused.

I'm surprised by how many people forget this and act like they just defused for no reason.

And you forgot that I already acknowledged this, noting that it was the databook that said it, unless you'd like to prove me wrong and provide a manga scan of this statement.

[MasenkoHA]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

It was stated that Boo's insides negated the magic of the Kais hence why they defused.

I'm surprised by how many people forget this and act like they just defused for no reason.

And you forgot that I already acknowledged this, noting that it was the databook that said it, unless you'd like to prove me wrong and provide a manga scan of this statement.

We can prove you wrong by applying common sense to what happened

Old Kaioshin: The potara earrings fusion last forever!

-Vegetto gets eaten by Boo

-The forever fusion is undone

[VegettoEX]

Tone down the arrogance/antagonism/usual nonsense please. It's possible to just have a normal discussion about this stuff and be nice and cordial, so let's see it!