Do you like Super?

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks are not allowed to train, they were not allowed to train with Vegeta.
Goten wasn't allowed to train with Goku and Whis.

I am sure Goten and Trunks are stronger than the humans, but still nothing they rely on weak humans.


Vegeta did stupid things in DBZ, yet no one forbade him from anything. He even helped his enemies get more powerful and attacked his allies.



I know this is Toriyama but in ROF if there is a invasion, then they should bring all the fighters available. Instead they were forbidden. Then they whined how limited their numbers are.
Bulma acted all childish to Freeza, yet there is no problem. She can go to any battle field she wants.




Edit so basically for Goten and Trunks these things were off limit:

- Training (Can't train with parents, family and friends)
- Fighting
- Competition
- Fighting villains
- Entering tournament

[MasenkoHA]

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Vegeta did stupid things in DBZ, yet no one forbade him from anything. He even helped his enemies get more powerful and attacked his allies.

Bulma acted all childish to Freeza, yet there is no problem. She can go to any battle field she wants.

It's almost like Bulma and Vegeta are grown adults.

[super michael]

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Vegeta did stupid things in DBZ, yet no one forbade him from anything. He even helped his enemies get more powerful and attacked his allies.

Bulma acted all childish to Freeza, yet there is no problem. She can go to any battle field she wants.

It's almost like Bulma and Vegeta are grown adults.

Being a adult doesn't mean they should get unlimited chances

In EOZ Vegeta complains how Goten and Trunks became slackers, however in DBS Anime we see they were not allowed to do anything when it came to combat and training.

They couldn't train with Vegeta, Goku and Whis.

Edit I almost forgot the only training partner Trunks has are Goten (when he is allowed to which is mostly never) and the Pilaf Gang.

[jjgp1112]

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Vegeta did stupid things in DBZ, yet no one forbade him from anything. He even helped his enemies get more powerful and attacked his allies.

Bulma acted all childish to Freeza, yet there is no problem. She can go to any battle field she wants.

It's almost like Bulma and Vegeta are grown adults.

Being a adult doesn't mean they should get unlimited chances

In EOZ Vegeta complains how Goten and Trunks became slackers, however in DBS Anime we see they were not allowed to do anything when it came to combat and training.

They couldn't train with Vegeta, Goku and Whis.

Children are still beholden to authority and feel they should listen to what adults tell them to. Vegeta on the other hand won't give a shit if anybody tells him to stand down and is stronger than every person that could tell him no that doesn't have hair shaped like a palm tree.

[MasenkoHA]

Being a adult doesn't mean they should get unlimited chances

But it does mean there is no authority over them.

Whomst is going to tell them they can't go? They knew of Freeza's return because Jaco told Bulma. They can't exactly keep Bulma and Vegeta in the dark

[super michael]

It's almost like Bulma and Vegeta are grown adults.

Being a adult doesn't mean they should get unlimited chances

In EOZ Vegeta complains how Goten and Trunks became slackers, however in DBS Anime we see they were not allowed to do anything when it came to combat and training.

They couldn't train with Vegeta, Goku and Whis.

Children are still beholden to authority and feel they should listen to what adults tell them to. Vegeta on the other hand won't give a shit if anybody tells him to stand down and is stronger than every person that could tell him no that doesn't have hair shaped like a palm tree.

If they want to protect their kids fair enough, but when they are not allowed to do things like training, that is crossing the line. When they train with experts, the kids learns their skills and technique along with getting stronger. Training is good for one health, there is no negative to training and sparring.

Heck Trunks only training partner is the Pilaf Gang, if Goten isn't allowed to train with him. I don't see Chi Chi allowing that.

Chi Chi reason for not training is because there are no bad guys, which is lame. There are always bad guys. Goku wanted to train with Goten at Whis planet, but Chi Chi didn't allow. Then Chi Chi got Bulma to stop them.

Sorry if I mistake some mistakes in spelling, was rushing to go out.

[kemuri07]

Eh. I find this whole matter of "you can't criticize or call Super bad because art is subjective and blah blah blah" such a non-argument meant to shut down any discussion, and honestly I tend to find it pointless.

Yes, art is subjective and you are allowed to like what you like. But, this is an anime discussion in which we discuss the merits of Dragon Ball both within the franchise as well as against its contemporaries. And Super isn't really good no matter how you slice it: It's too dependent of the source material to improve upon it and in fact makes Z's weaknesses even worse, and it's too stuck in the past to keep up with its contemporaries like Demon Slayer or JuJutsu Kaisen.

Super is stuck in Zombie mode ( a la Simpsons) in which sometimes it can remind you of the good ole days--but that's really it. I tune in because a chapter a month doesn't take that much out of my time, but it can't provide me the thrills of the original series because it's not operating on that level.

[MasenkoHA]

Eh. I find this whole matter of "you can't criticize or call Super bad because art is subjective and blah blah blah" such a non-argument meant to shut down any discussion, and honestly I tend to find it pointless.

Literally nobody made that argument. People are saying you can't call Super OBJECTIVELY bad, nobody said it was free from criticism or couldn't be called bad.

[Shinsa]

Eh. I find this whole matter of "you can't criticize or call Super bad because art is subjective and blah blah blah" such a non-argument meant to shut down any discussion, and honestly I tend to find it pointless.

Literally nobody made that argument. People are saying you can't call Super OBJECTIVELY bad, nobody said it was free from criticism or couldn't be called bad.

I have to agree here and the argument is getting out of hand. The thread askes if "YOU" like Super and while some think its bad, another can think its great to others thinking it in-between. Calling Super objectively bad or good imo is not the right approach.

Super is art and do I think its bad art overall? Yes but there are some moments that I'd argue have some pretty good moments in it/ animations. I think people can have a layered approach on how they view or understand Super or any art form from just being 100% trash to 100% master piece.

[kemuri07]

Eh. I find this whole matter of "you can't criticize or call Super bad because art is subjective and blah blah blah" such a non-argument meant to shut down any discussion, and honestly I tend to find it pointless.

Literally nobody made that argument. People are saying you can't call Super OBJECTIVELY bad, nobody said it was free from criticism or couldn't be called bad.

I have to agree here and the argument is getting out of hand. The thread askes if "YOU" like Super and while some think its bad, another can think its great to others thinking it in-between. Calling Super objectively bad or good imo is not the right approach.

Super is art and do I think its bad art overall? Yes but there are some moments that I'd argue have some pretty good moments in it/ animations. I think people can have a layered approach on how they view or understand Super or any art form from just being 100% trash to 100% master piece.

I mean that's not really what I'm saying either. I objectively think The Room is trash, but I absolutely acknowledge that it can be fun because of its off putting pacing and acting. But it is bad. You can acknowledge guilty pleasures while also simultaneously acknowledging that it is in fact bad. I don't think that just because there are certain aspects of Super that can be enjoyable does dismiss the overwhelming problems that the sequel series has.

So to me this whole thing about whether or not something can objectively be bad is pointless. It's just arguing semantics. Ok who cares? I can't call DBS "objectively bad."

Still bad though.

[ABED]

“I think it is objectively bad.” Is that not a contradictory statement?

Regardless I agree with another member that there is nuance to this. It’s not either good or bad. And as others have stated that isn’t the point of the thread. Do I like Super? Hell yeah. Overall it’s a fun show. I wouldn’t miss it if it never existed but I get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

[MCDaveG]

It's painful for me to watch Super. The retellings are subpar, the overall quality of production is horrid.
While I can aknowledge that Sumitomo is talented musician, I have never grown to like his soundtracks as the songs are not consistent in style, sometimes it sounds like generic arcade music.

While I like some aspects of it, some new characters and it starts to be watchable in the TOP arc, and on paper it is the DBZ sequel I would have wanted as a kid instead of GT, that's where it kinda ends. The writing is horrible. While some moments like Goku flying away with tractor and the alien dogs episode or Vegeta doing house jobs for Beerus were fun, it was like DBZ stripped down. The choreography and art suffering from poor production aside, it was just unimaginative Z fights until Goku Black, as he was the first interesting moveset villain IMHO, and the whole story being burdened by the EOZ it preceeds (we know how it ends and it doesn't add much except for it's own expansion on multiverse and Super Shenron). But most of the slice of life episodes were horrible and they gave us some consistent good ones at the beginning of TOP (training and recruitment), to toss them aside later, shipping Trunks and Goten on offscreen island.

It is actually more comfortable to watch GT for me, even with some of it's issues. But for me watching Beerus arc, Freeza arc and Universe 6 Tournament arc is comparable to me sitting through Super 17 arc. I really don't enjoy those episodes. Universe 6 arc is super boring for me mainly because of how it is lacking visually in comparison to the manga. Just few characters, simplistic locale and horrible fights.
I can feel the suffering of the overwhelmed staff when I watch it.

Not to mention weak gags most of the time (that Oolong rock, paper, scissors gag, that was short and fun in the movie, gets 20 minutes of a cringe episode), plot holes – like lacking the explanation of Pilaf Gang being kids. Wasted opportunities, like not foreshadowing Champa, nonsensical future travelling deja vu in Black arc and the whole pointlessness of the retelling arcs at the beginning. It's a series of misery and screwed product. While Dragon Ball gets butchered through home releases mostly and cel animation is more forgiving with the blur, texture and lack of the crystal clear digital animation details, Super is a screwed product from the beginning that will never look better than it does.

I have checked the Blu-ray corrected episodes and while they did some work on off model art, the result is still laughable.

EDIT: To be fair, I do like the Broly movie and Super Hero movie a lot in comparison to the TV series. Super movies are the reason that makes me wish for the series moving forward through movies with bigger budgets and better planned productions.
I am seriously afraid that the series might return in TV format one day.

[TheGreatness25]

Overall, I like the series. It's not some fans masterpiece--juat mindless, nostalgic entertainment. It's nice to see the cast and crew and see where the story progressed. At first, I was against Super, but now, I guess I just don't take it seriously. I can see what people don't like about it, but none of those things bother me too the point where I couldn't just sit back and enjoy it. Don't care about power scaling or any of that. I'm not looking for logic in the series. Hell, I'm not even looking for good writing. I just want to see the next chapters in these characters' lives.

It's got some cool music, it's got some new cool characters. The idea behind the stories is nice, which is pretty much what I can say about GT. The animation is good. I don't know, it's just an overall good time. Don't ask me who's stronger or why--I don't watch it with that lens.

[super michael]

DBS movies did I enjoy watching them? My answer is yes. I rate them really high.
I will admit I did enjoy watching the ToP, especially seeing all the universe fight. Goku Black saga it was enjoyable.

Maybe it is possible I enjoyed DBS Anime more than I think. I am just remembering too much the bad moments.

[MasenkoHA]

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I am seriously afraid that the series might return in TV format one day.

5 years later, I don't think it's happening. A movie every few years and an ongoing manga is probably it.

[super michael]

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I am seriously afraid that the series might return in TV format one day.

5 years later, I don't think it's happening. A movie every few years and an ongoing manga is probably it.

A anime can take weeks, months, years and even decades for it to return.
Bleach is an example that it took a decade for it to return.

There are those that don't get continuation after many years later like Inuyasha Final Act and sequel such as Yashahime.

[Hellspawn28]

Super give other characters to shine after people felt like GT was too heavy on Goku and Pan. Vegeta and Piccolo are not being used for plot devices unlike in GT.

[Skar]

Super give other characters to shine after people felt like GT was too heavy on Goku and Pan. Vegeta and Piccolo are not being used for plot devices unlike in GT.

I'm curious how were they plot devices in GT? I think the difference between how the other characters were handled was based on when it took place. Super was a midquel so it's before most of the cast retires in EoZ (or retire again if they've come out of retirement temporarily in Super). GT is a sequel so it had to follow where Toriyama left off. The humans and Piccolo basically retired in the Cell saga and the half Saiyans lost interest in training by EoZ. Goku was only interested in challenging Uub implying Vegeta was one step behind again.

[Cipher]

I don't like the anime at all. It has its moments--ones where it reminds me of why I like DB--scattered here and there throughout, which almost made the initial viewing more frustrating. It's the only major DB series between the lot of the main mangas and anime series I don't care for, and it isn't worth harping on, so I'll leave it at that. I think it's a show a non-super fan is likely to enjoy more, to be fair.

I like the movies and manga quite a bit. The worst thing I can say about them is that they feel completely optional--and they are; they're fluff sequels--but I think they've found formulas and pacing that work for being that kind of optional sequel stuff. If you're looking for more DB after the original, the manga and movies are perfectly enjoyable follow-ups that feel in line with the original's tone, with occasional positive developments for cast members. (Trunks and Vegeta, for example, I feel wind up more interesting for it.) Nothing anyone needs to go onto, but I think they hit the mark of being enjoyable as "more DB," even if they don't pull of the sequel magic of feeling essential or elevating the whole series. I think they're fun to go through, at least.

I know there is the manga but I can't bring myself to read it...but maybe I should?

At the very least the manga is different enough in execution and content that people who really like one version seem to not like the other at all, so it's probably worth checking out.

[ABED]

I like the movies and manga quite a bit. The worst thing I can say about them is that they feel completely optional--and they are; they're fluff sequels--but I think they've found formulas and pacing that work for being that kind of optional sequel stuff. If you're looking for more DB after the original, the manga and movies are perfectly enjoyable follow-ups that feel in line with the original's tone, with occasional positive developments for cast members. (Trunks and Vegeta, for example, I feel wind up more interesting for it.) Nothing anyone needs to go onto, but I think they hit the mark of being enjoyable as "more DB," even if they don't pull of the sequel magic of feeling essential or elevating the whole series. I think they're fun to go through, at least.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "optional".