Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[JulieYBM]

Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

To be fair whether or not someone is "hot" is highly subjective, and I don't swing that way so I can't say one way or the other. I certainly don't think Vegeta would fit the type of man that would fit that categorization for a straight woman or gay man.

Well, I'm neither of those things, butttttt...

Vegeta doesn't fit my freak—I know him too well as a person and he's just too boring—but I'm sure that he's hot to someone. There are, as the website goes, plenty of fish in the sea.

But Blooma can do better.

Way better.

[MasenkoHA]

Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

To be fair whether or not someone is "hot" is highly subjective, and I don't swing that way so I can't say one way or the other.

It is subjective and we know Bulma subjectively does not think he's hot because she's never swooned over him the way she did literally any other guy she found hot. That's my point. If she thought he was hot we would know the minute they came across each other.

The whole "Bulma is attracted to bad boys because that's what women are stereotypically attracted to right?" has always been a grasping at straws that ignores how the character has always behaved and what her type has been. (Men she personally finds physically attractive regardless if they're a Nazi, a Space Nazi, a shape shifting yokai taking the form of a handsome man, a bumbling thief who can't talk to women or a good natured country bumpkin who recently developed muscles and hit his growth spurt)

[ABED]

But "are they hot" is a different debate from "would you do them?" Have we learned nothing from The Office?

Them forgetting who king piccolo was, is very silly lol that would be like them forgetting who Freeza was. I guess Toriyama just struggles to remember some of the finer details of the stuff that he writes.

As for Piccolo, I buy it. I think that while he is a reincarnation of the original, its hard to say definitively whether or not they are identical to each other in every way. Its hard for me to picture the original King Piccolo deciding to sacrifice himself for Gohan or being completely docile after losing to Goku at the world martial arts tournament.

No one forgot who he was, not even Toriyama. it's just a world where over the top acts like trying to rule the world can be forgiven. As for Piccolo, they aren't identical, but he is in fact the reincarnation of his self/father, but I htink he has a soul. I'm not up on Asian religions.

[tonysoprano300]

Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

To be fair whether or not someone is "hot" is highly subjective, and I don't swing that way so I can't say one way or the other.

It is subjective and we know Bulma subjectively does not think he's hot because she's never swooned over him the way she did literally any other guy she found hot. That's my point. If she thought he was hot we would know the minute they came across each other.

The whole "Bulma is attracted to bad boys because that's what women are stereotypically attracted to right?" has always been a grasping at straws that ignores how the character has always behaved and what her type has been. (Men she personally finds physically attractive regardless if they're a Nazi, a Space Nazi, a shape shifting yokai taking the form of a handsome man, a bumbling thief who can't talk to women or a good natured country bumpkin who recently developed muscles and hit his growth spurt)

Its honestly even worse than that, given Vegeta has threatened to kill her on multiple occasions. Vegeta almost did kill her in the Buu arc and she still loved him.

The image I have of a “bad boy” is more inline with the Edward Cullen type, generally someone who adds excitement and intrigue to your life. From everything we know about Vegeta on earth, all he did was eat, train and sleep which sounds fairly boring for a “bad boy”.

[MasenkoHA]

But "are they hot" is a different debate from "would you do them?" Have we learned nothing from The Office?

With Bulma the two seem interchangeable and Toriyama did a horrible job (i.e he didn't even try) to make us believe that Vegeta was the latter for her even if he wasn't the former

No one forgot who he was, not even Toriyama. it's just a world where over the top acts like trying to rule the world can be forgiven. As for Piccolo, they aren't identical, but he is in fact the reincarnation of his self/father, but I htink he has a soul. I'm not up on Asian religions.

He was no longer a mazoku since Raditz was able to be judged by King Yemma and not stayed trapped on earth as a restless spirit.

As far as the manga is concerned martial artist being able to use their ki to perform super human feats was just common knowledge by anyone with a passive interest in the sport during the pre-Saiyan days. The Budokai announcer treated Muten Roshi's signature KameHameHa as common knowledge for example. Then suddenly everyone forgot by the time of the Cell Games. If they can forget that I can buy they can forget what The Great Demon King looks like when he only showed up on tv once 13 years before the televised Cell Games

If I remember correctly the anime did have a news reporter identify Piccolo as the Piccolo Daimao during the Saiyan invasion so I guess the public just assumed he turned over a new leaf and now fought on the earth's behalf...and then forgot all about him and Goku and ki techniques 4 years later.

[tonysoprano300]

I was more so referring to how Tien completely forgot that Piccolo Jr was a descendant from the great Demon King Piccolo, despite the fact that he lost Chiaztou in that battle and was nearly killed himself

[Cure Dragon 255]

I was more so referring to how Tien completely forgot that Piccolo Jr was a descendant from the great Demon King Piccolo, despite the fact that he lost Chiaztou in that battle and was nearly killed himself

I think this is because Surprise Surprise Toriyama forgot. Ok that's a lazy answer and Toriyama probably remembered, its just that Tenshinhan knew Piccolo was stronger than anyone else on their side and was their best bet to defeat the Saiyans. And even if he tried objecting it could mean death if he did, remember he can easily kill everyone if not given an actual enemy to focus on, and this time this excuse IS legit because Piccolo DOES focus on beating the enemy and its not just lip service like it is for Vegeta.

EDIT: I was about to mention "What about Krillin? He got killed by Piccolo too!" but then I remembered he wasnt, it was Tamborine.

[jjgp1112]

i think fans take the whole "Toriyama was making it up as he went along" way out of proportion. Trunks had a jacket with the capsule logo on. Toriyama had already came up with Bulma and Vegeta's son from the future idea before introducing Trunks not after. Probably not a whole lot sooner but definitely by the time he was planning out the last chapter of the Namek saga.

I think Toriyama decided on who Trunks' parents would be the minute he got the idea for the character. Probably saw the Terminator 2 trailers ad figured, "Ooh, what if I had a Super Saiyan version of John Conner? Who would his parents be? It'd have to be the only other full-blooded Saiyan alive and the only other important female character!"

As for the "Is Vegeta hot?!" conversation, wasn't there a direct correlation between his appearance and a spike in female readership? So somebody had to like him . I think in Bulma's case, the threat of Vegeta and the scale of it probably superseded any potential thoughts about his appearance. When Vegeta pops up on Namek, her first thought is "I'm gonna fucking die!" She already knew how awful he was before seeing him, whereas like, Zarbon, all she saw was a random hot guy jumping in to fight him and save her by proxy. So even though we didn't see it on-screen, it's very possible while hanging around him in Capsule Corp she eventually had a moment where after seeing Vegeta in a setting where he wasn't potentially trying to kill her she was like "Huh, Vegeta's hot?????"

[tonysoprano300]

As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

[Cure Dragon 255]

As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

I would but I love Future Gohan and Trunks story. Its such a sad and really dark story for Dragon Ball.

[jjgp1112]

As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

Well, part of the intrigue of Trunks was the mystery. An obviously grown up Gohan isn't as intriguing as a random guy who doesn't look like a Saiyan at all showing up and turning out to be a Super Saiyan, and having two unlikely parents. Cool supersedes logic.

Y'all are overthinking this.

[tonysoprano300]

As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

I would but I love Future Gohan and Trunks story. Its such a sad and really dark story for Dragon Ball.

I would agree, losing out on the “History of Trunks” special would be a huge blow to the DB franchise.

[quote=tonysoprano300 post_id=<a href="tel:1785648">1785648</a> time=<a href="tel:1720894259">1720894259</a> user_id=129102]
As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

Well, part of the intrigue of Trunks was the mystery. An obviously grown up Gohan isn't as intriguing as a random guy who doesn't look like a Saiyan at all showing up and turning out to be a Super Saiyan, and having two unlikely parents. Cool supersedes logic.
Y'all are overthinking this.

That mystery was unraveled almost immediately though, maybe if they had kept it hidden for longer it would hit better

[jjgp1112]

As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

I would but I love Future Gohan and Trunks story. Its such a sad and really dark story for Dragon Ball.

I would agree, losing out on the “History of Trunks” special would be a huge blow to the DB franchise.

[quote=tonysoprano300 post_id=<a href="tel:1785648">1785648</a> time=<a href="tel:1720894259">1720894259</a> user_id=129102]
As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

Well, part of the intrigue of Trunks was the mystery. An obviously grown up Gohan isn't as intriguing as a random guy who doesn't look like a Saiyan at all showing up and turning out to be a Super Saiyan, and having two unlikely parents. Cool supersedes logic.
Y'all are overthinking this.

That mystery was unraveled almost immediately though, maybe if they had kept it hidden for longer it would hit better

I mean maybe, but Gohan is already charted territory. Even knowing Trunks' identity, that in itself brings a lot of questions and is just inherently more unique concept then just a grown up version of a guy we already know. Plus, while there is something cool about a grown up, battle-hardened version of Gohan fighting alongside his kid self, with Vegeta now being a main character, having a guy from the future who turns out to be his son is an easy layup for exploring and fleshing out his character enough to get more out of keeping him around, which is exactly what happened.

[tonysoprano300]

I would but I love Future Gohan and Trunks story. Its such a sad and really dark story for Dragon Ball.

I would agree, losing out on the “History of Trunks” special would be a huge blow to the DB franchise.

[quote=tonysoprano300 post_id=<a href="tel:1785648">1785648</a> time=<a href="tel:1720894259">1720894259</a> user_id=129102]
As much as I love the Future Trunks character, I wonder if it might have been more sensible for Toriyama to choose Future Gohan for the John Connor role. Could be argued that he has more narrative relevance given that its Gohan who ultimately beats Cell, and you avoid having to randomly breed two characters for the sake creating a saiyan hybrid

Well, part of the intrigue of Trunks was the mystery. An obviously grown up Gohan isn't as intriguing as a random guy who doesn't look like a Saiyan at all showing up and turning out to be a Super Saiyan, and having two unlikely parents. Cool supersedes logic.
Y'all are overthinking this.

That mystery was unraveled almost immediately though, maybe if they had kept it hidden for longer it would hit better

I mean maybe, but Gohan is already charted territory. Even knowing Trunks' identity, that in itself brings a lot of questions and is just inherently more unique concept then just a grown up version of a guy we already know. Plus, while there is something cool about a grown up, battle-hardened version of Gohan fighting alongside his kid self, with Vegeta now being a main character, having a guy from the future who turns out to be his son is an easy layup for exploring and fleshing out his character enough to get more out of keeping him around, which is exactly what happened.

Kind of a side note but If I saw a photo of future Gohan having no idea who he is, Id probably assume a relation to Yamcha more than anything else lol

I agree somewhat but I honestly feel Vegeta’s character wasn’t really explored that much, their training in ROSAT was offscreen and so when Vegeta has that penultimate moment of anger due to Trunk’s death you kind of just have to assume that he developed some attachment to him in the room. From the audience POV, Vegeta was an arrogant asshole for 95% of the story. The piccolo and Gohan stuff was actually on screen(or on the page)

I don’t know why Toriyama skips past stuff like that

[MasenkoHA]

I was more so referring to how Tien completely forgot that Piccolo Jr was a descendant from the great Demon King Piccolo, despite the fact that he lost Chiaztou in that battle and was nearly killed himself

He didn't though

Per the manga

Tenshinhan: Goku..that man...don't tell me...he's one of Piccolo's children?

Goku: Yeah something like that

As for the "Is Vegeta hot?!" conversation, wasn't there a direct correlation between his appearance and a spike in female readership? So somebody had to like him . I think in Bulma's case, the threat of Vegeta and the scale of it probably superseded any potential thoughts about his appearance. When Vegeta pops up on Namek, her first thought is "I'm gonna fucking die!" She already knew how awful he was before seeing him, whereas like, Zarbon, all she saw was a random hot guy jumping in to fight him and save her by proxy. So even though we didn't see it on-screen, it's very possible while hanging around him in Capsule Corp she eventually had a moment where after seeing Vegeta in a setting where he wasn't potentially trying to kill her she was like "Huh, Vegeta's hot?????"

That's probably the best argument in favor of Bulma having a thing for Vegeta.

Although knowing Oolong was a shape shifter kidnapping young girls and was just an oni 5 seconds ago didn't stop her from swooning over him and showing off her breast after he turned into a handsome guy. And knowing General Blue worked for the Red Ribbon Army didn't stop her from ogling him. Girl doesn't have the best track of using common sense when she sees a guy she deems hot. But I guess we can chalk that up to her being 16.

[tonysoprano300]

I was more so referring to how Tien completely forgot that Piccolo Jr was a descendant from the great Demon King Piccolo, despite the fact that he lost Chiaztou in that battle and was nearly killed himself

He didn't though

Per the manga

Tenshinhan: Goku..that man...don't tell me...he's one of Piccolo's children?

Goku: Yeah something like that

I'm talking specifically about the Piccolo lashing out scene after they their asses handed to them by the Androids, right after Piccolo leaves he says that he forgot Piccolo was a great Demon King in the past

[ABED]

I was more so referring to how Tien completely forgot that Piccolo Jr was a descendant from the great Demon King Piccolo, despite the fact that he lost Chiaztou in that battle and was nearly killed himself

He didn't though

Per the manga

Tenshinhan: Goku..that man...don't tell me...he's one of Piccolo's children?

Goku: Yeah something like that

I'm talking specifically about the Piccolo lashing out scene after they their asses handed to them by the Androids, right after Piccolo leaves he says that he forgot Piccolo was a great Demon King in the past

I think you are being overly literal in this case. I think because Piccolo had been a friend to the team for quite a few years with no sign of backsliding, I think it was no longer in the mind that he was his former self. He believed Piccolo's change was sincere and permanent. He was taken aback by this outburst.

[tonysoprano300]

He didn't though

Per the manga

Tenshinhan: Goku..that man...don't tell me...he's one of Piccolo's children?

Goku: Yeah something like that

I'm talking specifically about the Piccolo lashing out scene after they their asses handed to them by the Androids, right after Piccolo leaves he says that he forgot Piccolo was a great Demon King in the past

I think you are being overly literal in this case. I think because Piccolo had been a friend to the team for quite a few years with no sign of backsliding, I think it was no longer in the mind that he was his former self. He believed Piccolo's change was sincere and permanent. He was taken aback by this outburst.

That’s a good point, its fair to interpret it that way

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Funny that if Vegeta wasn't around, the Cell Saga would've been a lot easier. Boo Saga might have taken a dark turn, however.

Future Gohan doesn't sacrifice himself --> Future Gohan goes to the past --> Piccolo saves Goku from 19 and 20 --> If 20 escapes to the mountains, Trunks doesn't distract everyone --> Gero can't flee to his lab --> Androids never activated

Boo Saga events would be completely different, but I can't see the Z Fighters surviving Babidi and Dabra.

Aside from the dub it was never said he would be the strongest just that Saiyan/Earthling hybrids were uber powerful. Nothing about his story required him to become the strongest in the universe. There was never any explicit promise for Gohan to surpass everyone. The fact that he was able to stand toe to toe with the rest of the Z warriors at the age of 5 was enough

It's clear as day Toriyama didn't even think of making Gohan the most powerful until roughly the time Cell became perfect. And we know he backtracked on that anyways...

All from the manga:

Raditz to Goku: "This kid is even stronger than you!"

Piccolo after kidnapping Gohan: "I will make you the mightiest warrior" and keeps trying to set up Gohan as the main player to kill Nappa.

Kuririn: Suggests Gohan could fight Vegeta and then Freeza once Guru unlocks his hidden powers.

Vegeta after Gohan smacks 2nd form Freeza: "Could he be the real Super Saiyan?"


Gohan isn't the chosen one, but Toriyama always kept the idea in his pocket and it's only natural he'd use this plot with the story going past Freeza. But if after Namek Vegeta stayed dead and the series had an epilogue with Gohan saying "You know, I'm just prefer studying anyway" it would've been fine too.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Funny that if Vegeta wasn't around, the Cell Saga would've been a lot easier. Boo Saga might have taken a dark turn, however.

Future Gohan doesn't sacrifice himself --> Future Gohan goes to the past --> Piccolo saves Goku from 19 and 20 --> If 20 escapes to the mountains, Trunks doesn't distract everyone --> Gero can't flee to his lab --> Androids never activated

Boo Saga events would be completely different, but I can't see the Z Fighters surviving Babidi and Dabra.

Aside from the dub it was never said he would be the strongest just that Saiyan/Earthling hybrids were uber powerful. Nothing about his story required him to become the strongest in the universe. There was never any explicit promise for Gohan to surpass everyone. The fact that he was able to stand toe to toe with the rest of the Z warriors at the age of 5 was enough

It's clear as day Toriyama didn't even think of making Gohan the most powerful until roughly the time Cell became perfect. And we know he backtracked on that anyways...

All from the manga:

Raditz to Goku: "This kid is even stronger than you!"

Piccolo after kidnapping Gohan: "I will make you the mightiest warrior" and keeps trying to set up Gohan as the main player to kill Nappa.

Kuririn: Suggests Gohan could fight Vegeta and then Freeza once Guru unlocks his hidden powers.

Vegeta after Gohan smacks 2nd form Freeza: "Could he be the real Super Saiyan?"


Gohan isn't the chosen one, but Toriyama always kept the idea in his pocket and it's only natural he'd use this plot with the story going past Freeza. But if after Namek Vegeta stayed dead and the series had an epilogue with Gohan saying "You know, I'm just prefer studying anyway" it would've been fine too.

While I used to find Vegeta infuriating, especially after it was pointed out just how much he fucks up and needlessly makes bad shit happen, I am ALSO starting to see his being there did lead the story in massively interesting directions, and this "Play it massively safe and do our best to avoid any conflict" is boring and misses the point that conflict is needed for the story to go places..