Is the split explanation of the Potara fusion in Daima a Ret-Con or not?

[SupremeKai25]

"Why they never brought up breaking Vegito's earrings" is a moot point. The characters often forget that they can do certain things. Dragon Ball isn't a series where everything is planned ahead and consistent.

I asked these questions specifically to highlight possible inconsistencies, so just saying 'inconsistencies happen' is what feels like a moot point to me

Some argue that Toriyama wasn’t being inconsistent with his own work because he never added Vegetto and the whole 1-hour limit explanation to his outline of the Goku Black arc. That’s fair if we’re only considering what Toriyama explicitly wrote (though the inconsistency still exists if we treat both Daima and Super as canon). But when we also factor in Kefla, things get a bit more complicated. If Toriyama really introduced the idea that destroying the Potara earrings undoes the fusion, him ignoring that here in Daima does seem like a huge inconsistency in the rules he set up.

Just to clarify, when I say 'inconsistency,' I don’t necessarily mean a plot hole or that Daima and Super can’t coexist in the same continuity. I just mean that the way characters approach Potara fusion rules is inconsistent across these works. We can try to 'technically' make sense of it, but it still feels off.

That said, Daima does seem to be trying to stay consistent with the original manga, and it looks like it doesn’t care much about anything from the Super era onwards. That’s not to say it’s completely ignoring that stuff (Universe 7 is mentioned, after all), but I think it’s going to be pretty loose with any concepts not found in the original work.

Anyway, to answer the OP’s question: I don’t believe the split in Daima is a retcon. In fact, I think it’s sticking closely to the original manga’s continuity. What I do consider a retcon are the Potara rules introduced in Super: the 1-hour time limit and splitting by destroying the earrings. So, in a way, the split in Daima is a retcon of a retcon—a kind of 'de-retcon,' if you will.

I don't think so. Kale wasn't even a Toriyama creation.

If that's the case, then it would become even more clear that any Potara stuff in Super is unrelated to Toriyama's rules for the Potara.

Hell, the question I have now is, do we know if Kibitoshin's presence in Battle of Gods has anything to do with Toriyama?

Nothing in Super retcons anything from the original or Daima.

The idea that mortal fusions have a 1-hour limit can perfectly coexist with the idea that the gas in Buu's body has magical properties.

As for Kefla, iirc the earring doesn't get broken in the manga and she defuses either due to the time limit or, as I said above, weird World of Void shenanigans that happened when she got kicked off of the arena and teleported to the stands.

Either way, Kefla's existence doesn't contradict anything from the original manga. Mortal fusions having a time limit is simply not contradictory at all.

[Luso Saiyan]

Hell, the question I have now is, do we know if Kibitoshin's presence in Battle of Gods has anything to do with Toriyama?

We don't. But like I mentioned in the other thread, I'm of the opinion that his part there is so small that he might not even have come from Toriyama's story, or if it did, he would be Kaioshin. And as Mr Baggins pointed out, his art for Battle of Gods features Kaioshin, not Kibitoshin, so as far as Toriyama's concerned, they might have defused from the very beginning when that storyline took place and we're now finally getting the explanation for how it happened since Kaioshin is going to be a central character in this story.

The idea that mortal fusions have a 1-hour limit can perfectly coexist with the idea that the gas in Buu's body has magical properties.

Yes, the contradiction is not on how Potara works, but on Goku knowing how he defused in Daima and asking about it anyway in Super. But that can easily be explained by the latter discussion not being a thing in Toriyama's story. Maybe that explanation came from Toriyama, maybe it didn't. The point is that it didn't happen in the first place in his story.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, the contradiction is not on how Potara works, but on Goku knowing how he defused in Daima and asking about it anyway in Super. But that can easily be explained by the latter discussion not being a thing in Toriyama's story. Maybe that explanation came from Toriyama, maybe it didn't. The point is that it didn't happen in the first place in his story.

Yes. The dialogue in the Super anime was created mostly by Toei. Whether Vegito happened in Toriyama's outline or not is irrelevant, because ultimately, it is not Toriyama who created the dialogue of Goku asking Gowasu why he defused.

In the manga, where the dialogue was written by Toyotaro, Goku never asks Gowasu why he defused. Gowasu reveals the one hour time limit to Trunks, who has never seen fusion at all.

So the only thing Daima does is contradict one piece of dialogue created by Toei for the Super Anime... it's really not that big of a deal.

[Koitsukai]

Kefla defusing because of some thing at that Void World (not the arena) having a similar effect as being inside of Buu works for me.

Having two continuities for DBS allows us to pick the least troublesome take on this, which is the manga's. There, only Shin seems like an idiot because he should know better, but he might've also been thinking that was close.
Of course, this wasn't a thing in 2017, but now we can pretend Shin was thinking something like "fuck, I could've been absorbed by Buu... it's a good thing my hunch was right but still, close enough"

[Luso Saiyan]

Whether Vegito happened in Toriyama's outline or not is irrelevant,

It's relevant because it indicates that entire story point (which includes the potara discussion) wasn't part of his story.

[Zephyr]

We don't know if Daima's Potara thing is from Toriyama or if it was already part of the plan before he got involved.

[Luso Saiyan]

We don't know if Daima's Potara thing is from Toriyama or if it was already part of the plan before he got involved.

Didn't he come up with the story and characters? Considering how Kaioshin is central to this story, and that the reason for their defusion is different from what was established in Super, chances are it came from Toriyama.

[Caulifor]

Hell, the question I have now is, do we know if Kibitoshin's presence in Battle of Gods has anything to do with Toriyama?

We don't. But like I mentioned in the other thread, I'm of the opinion that his part there is so small that he might not even have come from Toriyama's story, or if it did, he would be Kaioshin. And as Mr Baggins pointed out, his art for Battle of Gods features Kaioshin, not Kibitoshin, so as far as Toriyama's concerned, they might have defused from the very beginning when that storyline took place and we're now finally getting the explanation for how it happened since Kaioshin is going to be a central character in this story.

Very interesting, I totally forgot about this key art.

Now I'm starting to think this has nothing to do with the Potara earrings at all, and it's just a case where Toriyama completely forgot about Kibitoshin and kept adding Kaioshin to his outlines.

In Battle of Gods, Kibitoshin likely wasn't even mentioned in his notes, so whenever there was a scene with Old Kaioshin, the staff naturally added Kibitoshin since they had always been paired together.

Then during the Universe 6 arc, when Kaioshin actually appeared in Toriyama's outlines, the staff had to come up with their own explanation, seeing as in Toriyama's mind — according to my hypothesis here — there wasn't even any need for an explanation, as he had forgotten about Kibitoshin altogether.

Fast forward to the Goku Black arc, where Toriyama wasn't directly involved with the Potara fusion plot at all, so the 1-hour time limit was likely something the staff invented. I believe the same thing applies for Kefla and her defusion when the earrings were broken during the Tournament of Power.

And finally, in Daima Toriyama once again adds Kaioshin to his story. If my hypothesis is correct, the only question left is whether this time the staff finally reminded him about Kibitoshin, prompting him to create his own explanation for the split, or if yet again the staff had to come up with a way to fit it into the story he wanted to tell.

[Zephyr]

Didn't he come up with the story and characters? Considering how Kaioshin is central to this story, and that the reason for their defusion is different from what was established in Super, chances are it came from Toriyama.

He "created not only the story, but the world, the characters, the mechs, all sorts of things." Compare to what he said regarding his involvement with Battle of Gods:

For all the animation up to now, I’ve basically just left everything up [to the staff], so this is my first try at being involved starting from the story’s creation.

So, yeah, he "came up with" the stories of both Battle of Gods and Daima, which in the former case doesn't necessarily mean every last concept, detail, or plot beat. As a result, there's more ambiguity regarding Daima than people are acknowledging. Like if I had to guess I'd say that yeah, the line about Boo de-fusing Kaioshin was probably a Toriyama thing. But we don't really know. "Goku and Shin go on an adventure" could be Daima's "Super Saiyan God vs. God of Destruction Birusu", something in the initial pre-Toriyama plan that inspired him and was built off of rather than scrapped.

There's also the idea that "Daima is Toriyama giving his reason for why Vegetto defused in the Boo arc", resting on the notion that Toriyama did not come up with the Potara time limit. The only source, as far as I'm aware, that mentions Vegetto not being part of the original draft is the Tori-Toyo Free Talk Vol. 2. What's actually said about it is this:

[Fused] Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

So the "Potara time limit" was part of the original draft. It was a thing whether Vegetto was suggested and pushed for or not. So it sounds to me like what was established in Super did come from Toriyama.

All that being said: when it comes to what Goku should know by the time he's fighting Zamasu: the truth is that Toriyama can simply contradict himself if he wants. Toei's writers can also contradict themselves (and each other) if they want. It is not necessarily some big clue or insight into any writer's feelings or intentions regarding some TV shows and their relations to each other. Consistency does not indicate intended continuity.

[Luso Saiyan]

So, yeah, he "came up with" the stories of both Battle of Gods and Daima, which in the former case doesn't necessarily mean every last concept, detail, or plot beat. As a result, there's more ambiguity regarding Daima than people are acknowledging. Like if I had to guess I'd say that yeah, the line about Boo de-fusing Kaioshin was probably a Toriyama thing. But we don't really know. "Goku and Shin go on an adventure" could be Daima's "Super Saiyan God vs. God of Destruction Birusu", something in the initial pre-Toriyama plan that inspired him and was built off of rather than scrapped.

Right, we're all just speculating, but the point is that if it was something established pre-Toriyama, I don't think it would be the anime people that would disregard the explanation already established: that they used the Namekian Dragon Balls. I feel that when stuff like that happens, it's usually Toriyama setting things straight. Or at least how he envisions things.

Again, just an assumption.

There's also the idea that "Daima is Toriyama giving his reason for why Vegetto defused in the Boo arc", resting on the notion that Toriyama did not come up with the Potara time limit. The only source, as far as I'm aware, that mentions Vegetto not being part of the original draft is the Tori-Toyo Free Talk Vol. 2. What's actually said about it is this:

[Fused] Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

So the "Potara time limit" was part of the original draft. It was a thing whether Vegetto was suggested and pushed for or not. So it sounds to me like what was established in Super did come from Toriyama.

Good point.

What I've always said in this thread is that this is Toriyama giving his reason for why Kaioshin and Kibito defused.

But I was conflating the Vegetto stuff with the explanation for the potaras as being part of the same story point, when I completely forgot that the explanation applies first and foremost to fused Zamasu.

[Zephyr]

What I've always said in this thread is that this is Toriyama giving his reason for why Kaioshin and Kibito defused.

Maybe. Granted, the Namekian DBs defusing them was in both Super's manga and anime, which many would take as evidence that it was Toriyama's idea. On the other hand, maybe it was a Toei idea that Toyotaro then included in his comicalization of the anime. Maybe Daima's explanation is one of Toei's writers forgetting something and contradicting Toriyama. Maybe they were both Toriyama's ideas, and he either forgot or changed his mind. Or maybe it's a conscious choice and indicates a fresh continuity.

Personally, there's so much that's up in the air and ambiguous that I don't see much point in speculating and guessing. But I recognize that is part of the fun for some. Just kinda irks me when people start running too far with speculation and treating it like we know too much of anything concrete about behind the scenes intentions and authorship. The whole revival era in general has been much more of a collaborative effort than the original manga ever was. It will be interesting as the years go by to maybe get more of a look behind the curtain with these things, and see how (if at all) the two sequels connect.

[Luso Saiyan]

The best we got (published) was Resurrection 'F'. Arguably the most plain story too.

[nineko]

It's also possible that after their first exposition to the air inside Boo they developed immunity towards it, like we do with medicines and stuff, so a wish became necessary for a second separation if they indeed needed to fuse again in Daima for whatever reason. That still wouldn't explain the inconsistent dialogue in Super, though.