Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

Despite how it devolved on the late episodes I will still miss Daima. Really was a good ride.
Looks like I was completely wrong on Glorio, instead the leaks were the ones to once again...well, leak stuff, given we saw Kuu' cape right away. So it wasn't that big of a surprise really.

That being said, while the episode was funny and managed to be better paced than I thought...I have no idea what happened with Arinsu or why suddenly Shin thinks it would be even remotely okay to offer her the position. That was pretty stupid, not at the level of 18's question at the end of the Super anime, but still came out as extremely forced just trying to cap things off. She is someone who thought Degesu lacked ambition. You know, the same Degesu that they have just imprisioned because of being a bad guy? Was there supposed to be some kind of redemption arc here that I didn't get at all or was it scrapped? We also got zero explanations as to why Glorio worked with her to begin with. Only extremely vague stuff last episode.
And then...the Spanish subtitles must be horribly wrong, or so I hope. Because not only there isn't any attempt at making any of this fit BoG or Super as a whole (so they had the bugs all these years but never used them...yeah right, that' Broly' movie tier of convenience when they didn’t use the Potara), the implication also seems to be that Goku already had SS4! What the actual fuck? How would that make any sense even within Daima' own standalone context at all? The funny Vegeta response is not enough for me to ignore that, not even close.

Other than that it started with awesome Granolah-tier fighting choreography with insane sakuga, so really no complains in that aspect, it really didn’t disappoint.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

We have 3 different timelines now or better 5. Straight up bullshit. Hell not even the multiverse of Marvel is such a Trainwreck.

There's a 3 year time gap between Daima and Super, so they could write a story or two set there to connect them. Once Super reaches the end of Z, there's a 5 year gap between Z and GT in which they could use to connect Super and GT together.

[emperior]

Great episode and ending to a fantastic show.

I was just a little disappointed for the anticlimactic ending, but it made sense in the context of a low stakes serie, where the real story was about the Demon Realm itself and not about the main villain.

And I’m sorry to ruin the party for Super’s fans (which I also enjoyed and liked): Daima has made it non canon.

If the author’s last series contradicts it, and he’s been the most involved he’s ever been, having written it all, the logical conclusion is that Super is no longer the canon. It’s just an alternative take which Toriyama happened to supervise and be involved with, at this point.

That is unless there’s a new, Toriyama-written movie or series, set after this, which for some reason connects it to Super. Which I highly doubt, considering Super Saiyan 4 is now a thing and Goku had achieved it before Neva.

Of course we can speculate as to why Toriyama decided to make a new continuation to his manga that undoes Super. Maybe he was that dissatisfied with Super or maybe Akio Iyoku convinced him? Who knows.

[UpFromTheSkies]

We have 3 different timelines now or better 5. Straight up bullshit. Hell not even the multiverse of Marvel is such a Trainwreck.

There's a 3 year time gap between Daima and Super, so they could write a story or two set there to connect them. Once Super reaches the end of Z, there's a 5 year gap between Z and GT in which they could use to connect Super and GT together.

I don't see how they could tie it into Super, unless a villain alters everyone's memories to make Goku weaker, but if they're gonna make them forget about SS4, why not make them forget about SS1-3 as well?

[Cold Skin]

Super 2.0 with Moro and Gas at this point

I hope this happens eventually. Following the manga with the anime is definitely the right approach.

That has a good chance of happening.
Now that Toriyama has passed, the handlers might shy away from materials that are not Toriyama-approved for a bit, they don't have a "safety net" anymore. So they might hold on to those two arcs because they were still supervised by Toriyama to some extent and create new material that can still be branded as "Toriyama-approved".

We have 3 different timelines now or better 5

GT
Daima
Super Anime
Super Manga
Super Movies

Technically, the Super movies follow up on the Super anime (Battle of Gods and Resurrection F being Z movies, while only Broly and Super Hero that come after the Super anime are Super movies).

[Vegeta th3 4th]

We can speculate as to why Toriyama decided to make a new continuation to his manga that undoes Super. Maybe he was that dissatisfied with Super or maybe Akio Iyoku convinced him? Who knows.

With this being planned as a limited series from the start, he may have just wanted a fresh start and didn't want to worry about Super. Super will likely continue as is, this was just a fun shortcut.

[BernardoCairo]

Technically, the Super movies follow up on the Super anime

I don't think so. They ignore many exclusive elements from the anime (Super Hero in particular). The movies are the closest we have to an actual Toriyama take on DBS, as he was the writer himself.

[JulieYBM]

I thought ending the fight on a Kamehameha was lame. The attack has been done so much as a finisher that you need something unique to stand out, like vs Kefla. We just saw one two episodes ago.

I think that the Kamehame-Ha should have been more of an obvious bluff from Gokuu—have it look big and scary, but there's barely anything in it so that Piccolo can sneak up behind and hit Gomah.

[emperior]

We can speculate as to why Toriyama decided to make a new continuation to his manga that undoes Super. Maybe he was that dissatisfied with Super or maybe Akio Iyoku convinced him? Who knows.

With this being planned as a limited series from the start, he may have just wanted a fresh start and didn't want to worry about Super. Super will likely continue as is, this was just a fun shortcut.

For sure Super can go on, the story is still to be finished and it was mostly Toei’s / Toyotaro’s with Toriyama helping, movies aside, so they might as well continue diverging in their storytelling now that it’s no longer canon and thus Toriyama’s needed is not needed.

[Vegetto95]

We have 3 different timelines now or better 5

GT
Daima
Super Anime
Super Manga
Super Movies

Straight up bullshit. Hell not even the multiverse of Marvel is such a Trainwreck

Yeeeeaaah... as someone who's been reading Marvel's (and DC's) mainstream superhero comics for at least a quarter of a century now... naw, a mere five different continuities is NOOOOTHIIIIING. Even if you include every Dragon Ball manga, TV anime, movie, game, etc., it's still far, FAR less overpopulated than Marvel and DC's comics, let alone if you also throw in all the different adaptations of them in other mediums (which you should if it's to be a fair comparison, as just the five DB continuities you list alone are taken from comics, TV, AND film).

Hell, just try counting up EVERY different version of JUST Spider-Man and Batman outside of the comics since the 1930s (movies, novels, radio programs, TV shows, video games, children's books, you name it) and you'll very, VERY quickly see what I mean. THEN try throwing the long, LONG history of the literal TENS OF THOUSANDS of disparate comics in there with them (hell, Marvel just started up a SECOND Ultimate Universe last year!!! ). And THEN try throwing in the THOUSANDS of other titles under the Marvel and DC banners, and well... I'm preeeetty sure that you'll be crying home, begging to go back to the (relative) simplicity of Dragon Ball SD, Heroes, Xenoverse, Online, Fusions, Dokkan Battle, the Traffic and Fire Safety PSAs, the New Years and Summer Vacation Specials, Neko Majin, My Circumstances of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha, Episode of Bardock, Yo! Son Gokū and his Friends Return, Gather Together! Gokū's World, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, four different versions of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, etc. in mere minutes lmao

[Cold Skin]

Technically, the Super movies follow up on the Super anime

I don't think so. They ignore many exclusive elements from the anime (Super Hero in particular). The movies are the closest we have to an actual Toriyama take on DBS, as he was the writer himself.

I mean, the Tournament of Power events are directly mentionned in dialogues and shown in Broly to clearly state "this happens after what you saw on TV". And I don't think Super Hero has anything implying "this is in another universe that the Broly movie which is itself set right after the TV show" since Goku's side of the story clearly show the continuation of Broly stuff which is itself clearly stated as being after the TV events.

[Chuquita]

Daima is over!!

Thoughts:
+Final battle was fun to watch! I do like magenta ssj4 (but I like magenta ssjg more).
+Kuu as the new king is actually a fun choice and it’s so character-appropriate that he, the cerebral guy, wins by hitting Gomah using a book as a weapon. Nice.
+Piccolo teasing Gomah that he’ll shave a year off his 100 year sentence for not killing Dende.
+Just getting to see adult Goku hanging out post-battle was fun and distracting in a good way and I missed him as an adult so so much.
+The after-credits zinger with the third eye being an item shop item. Sure, why not. I’m playing DQ III 2D HD on and off and that totally tracks.
+I’m actually really entertained that the fusion bugs were never used/were a red herring. At the beginning of the show I didn’t want them to be used, then I came around to it if it meant Vegetto or some new Vegeta/Goku fusion character, but my initial wishes of wanting everyone to fight as themselves came true so not mad at all.
+Kuu is such a good son to his mom. Arinsu and everyone getting to be officials.
+Hybus getting left out of being hired because Kuu knows better.
+Goku raising his hand, but it’s not to ask to be a minister, it’s just him saying he wants to go home.
+Panzy waving Vegeta’s arm.
+/-Ultra Vegeta 1 what?
+/-Goku had ssj4 in his pocket and it wasn’t a thing Neva gifted him?! How’d he reach it? We didn’t get to see him initially unlock it? Well, didn’t get to see him first reach ssj3 either so…
+/-The still frames over the credits give more credence to this just being a very long movie. I liked Goten and Trunks’ hoverboards. Chichi returning to her adult age while on a stepstool makes me wonder how she made it back home as a child and how much time passed on Earth during Daima.
+/-I like Goku doing exercise during the post-battle banter with Vegeta, but I’ve seen more entertaining banter between them before. This doesn’t make up for other stuff, Daima.
-Nothing regarding the collars was ever resolved.



I liked this final episode, but overall…I initially went into Daima thinking it wasn’t for me. My suspicions were right; it’s not for me. My low expectations held. There were glimmers of fun stuff here and there, but for me, specifically, this has nothing on Super (which I admit is also full of questionable choices and varying production values) in terms of having a good time watching Dragon Ball week to week. I have the patience to wait for Daima the way I never had with Super because I just wasn’t having as much fun outside of Daima’s beautiful animation and most of Goku’s character moments. He carried this show for me a good chunk of the way until we got Majin Kuu and Majin Duu. Daima might be the least I’ve enjoyed Vegeta; sorry Geets. I did come around to enjoying Hybus though. I love how he seems to have this running thing where his animation is smoother than those around him.

It was fun to have a Dragon Ball thing to follow weekly again; and I proved to myself I can totally burn the candle at both ends, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t physically tired from the schedule I’d imposed on myself; and it’s definitely partly to how Daima’s plot unfolded. If I’d loved Daima the way I did Super I’d be sad to see this show end. I don’t hate or love Daima. It’s a show with Dragon Ball characters in it, but it wasn’t the flavor of DB that I like best, and that’s ok. I’ll finish up the DB-related stuff I want to do for episode 20 and by Wednesday return to hibernating until the next mainline DB thing appears; if and when.

Had my fun, but now it’s done. Best wishes, everybody. Thank you for everything!

[BernardoCairo]

I mean, the Tournament of Power events are directly mentionned in dialogues and shown in Broly to clearly state "this happens after what you saw on TV".

The Tournament of Power definitely took place in the movies' continuity, but it doesn't appear to be the same as what we saw in the anime. There's no Blue Evolution, no Blue Kaioken, no mention of Ultra Instinct, and Jiren is portrayed as relying on his instincts to enhance his strength rather than raw power.

[Zephyr]

An alright episode, I liked #19 more than it though. Koo being the MPV was great. Him ignoring Hybis was great. Goku raising his hand after Koo asked if anyone from the outside world wanted to be a minister...only to say "No, we're going home" was great. Third Eyes being a purchasable item is funny. The join bugs not even being used for a gag is.....kinda weird, but it's also kinda funny, I guess.

If Super Saiyan 4 is just something Goku trained to get, and it's actually really just powering up past Super Saiyan 3, then its design is really out of place. Not a single one of its design cues build off of 3. Does it have any of 3's drawbacks? What was even the point of Neva doing anything? "To give Goku access to it as a kid". Okay, why did we need to see Goku use it as a kid? Easily could have just had the wish happen after Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was defeated. Really strange pacing and sequence of events in that climax.

All in all, an alright show, with a pretty poorly handled story. All that lore nobody asked for or needed remains the most interesting thing about it, with Koo and Doo being the only reasons I would ever want to rewatch it.

[emperior]

The events of Super’s movies all follow from Battle of Gods which is obviously no longer canon, in the form we saw. Making everything which is set thereafter no longer canonical either.

Naturally they could always reboot Super to make sense of Daima and finally establish a single version of it. But obviously, now that Toriyama can no longer have his say, we must accept that Daima (and, at best, a movie/series follow-up, if Toriyama wrote it) is the single canonical continuation of the manga, with everything else being relegated to being an alternate timeline or side story.

It’s surely simpler considering how Super has basically at least two different continuities of each story, which already sparked discussion as to whether the canon was just Toriyama’s napkin notes / the only commonalities in each story (besides the movies).

[Extreme_kai]

Technically, the Super movies follow up on the Super anime

I don't think so. They ignore many exclusive elements from the anime (Super Hero in particular). The movies are the closest we have to an actual Toriyama take on DBS, as he was the writer himself.

I'm a bit sick rn, so my apologies if I'm misconstruing what you're saying. I just don't understand how it ignores exclusive elements of the anime. Are you inferring it's more in line with the DBS manga? I'd disagree. Either way, it's following some outline of DBS, because we see at the start of Broly that the TOP took place, Vegeta and Goku have their Blue forms, and Freeza is alive. Without DBS, Broly and Super Hero could not have happened

[FinalForumPodcast]

I think people should stop seeing a work of art as an obligation and only engage with the art that they enjoy and have a fun time with. We should not feel obbligated to continually subject ourselves to art that is no fun to engage with. There is no sunk cost fallacy worth sinking further into frustration for.

Hear hear.

That said, if this is someone's FIRST time thinking "....this...kinda sucks? Oh no..." then they should be allowed to give voice to that frustration and try to help themselves sort out why that is.

So far, NOTHING in Dragon Ball (save maybe Evolution?) has made me think "Well. Time to just hit the ole dusty trail." I've never felt hit with such an INSANE glut of self-competing attention that it becomes difficult to keep up with it all, never found anything (save Evolution) to be so RANK that it hurts to experience, and never not had a pretty fun time discussing the hows and whats and whys of it all during and after the fact. And even if that winds up happening, there's still HUNDREDS of backlog episodes and DOZENS of movies and tons of manga that I do fully enjoy.

[BernardoCairo]

I just don't understand how it ignores exclusive elements of the anime.

Where are Blue Evolution, Blue Kaioken, and the references to Ultra Instinct? Why does Jiren have such a different portrayal?
I'm not suggesting that the Tournament of Power didn't occur within the movie continuity, because it did. However, that doesn't mean it directly aligns with what we saw in the anime. The movies were written by Toriyama himself, not the anime staff, and he was simply continuing the narrative he began with Battle of Gods, movie by movie. This is why I view the movies as part of a separate continuity.
That said, they can still casually fit within both the anime and manga continuities. For example, Broly works for both, and Super Hero aligns with the anime.

Goku raising his hand after Koo asked if anyone from the outside world wanted to be a minister...only to say "No, we're going home" was great.

This broke me

[JulieYBM]

I think people should stop seeing a work of art as an obligation and only engage with the art that they enjoy and have a fun time with. We should not feel obbligated to continually subject ourselves to art that is no fun to engage with. There is no sunk cost fallacy worth sinking further into frustration for.

Hear hear.

That said, if this is someone's FIRST time thinking "....this...kinda sucks? Oh no..." then they should be allowed to give voice to that frustration and try to help themselves sort out why that is.

So far, NOTHING in Dragon Ball (save maybe Evolution?) has made me think "Well. Time to just hit the ole dusty trail." I've never felt hit with such an INSANE glut of self-competing attention that it becomes difficult to keep up with it all, never found anything (save Evolution) to be so RANK that it hurts to experience, and never not had a pretty fun time discussing the hows and whats and whys of it all during and after the fact. And even if that winds up happening, there's still HUNDREDS of backlog episodes and DOZENS of movies and tons of manga that I do fully enjoy.

I've been fond of saying that I won't be returning to Daima, so I definitely get it. Select moments make for fun clips, but the series does not work as a cohesive whole. I wouldn't be surprised if the staff were instructed to construct Daima in that way, so that the series would get social media buzz, but not necessarily work or need to work as a cohesive television series.

[FinalForumPodcast]

I've been fond of saying that I won't be returning to Daima, so I definitely get it. Select moments make for fun clips, but the series does not work as a cohesive whole. I wouldn't be surprised if the staff were instructed to construct Daima in that way, so that the series would get social media buzz, but not necessarily work or need to work as a cohesive television series.

Very good friend of mine today said "I'll revisit the first Tamagami fight on YouTube, but that's probably about it," and it struck me what my overall issue really boils down to with Daima:

I like it. I've said I like it a lot of times....but I like it about AS MUCH as I like some of the best DBZ movies. It's a fun little dose of Dragon Ball, but has probably none of the highest moments in the franchise for me.....and if I want a fun little dose of Dragon Ball, I'm FAR more likely to re-watch a 50-minute movie than a 20-episode show.