How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[jjgp1112]

...

As a writer, you want me to relate to your character, right?
You want to pass on to me the message that your character is successful, strong and that he inspires others to be just like him.
You want to go even further and pass on to me the message that said character's success comes from hard work and determination.

You utterly and completely failed on said task the moment you start revealing said character has special biology that allows them to become even stronger even when defeated by merely existing. You failed even harder when you have a supporting cast that supposedly trains just as hard, sometimes even harder than your main character, and they remain pathetic in comparison and hopeless to catch up with them. That doesn't make me relate to Goku, or think his success comes from hard work and determination.

I'm not that dense, Toriyama is just not that good of a writer.

A character doesn't have to be relatable and send a positive message, he just has to be entertaining in the confines of his story lmao

[Yuji]

I like it because it does feel like Goku is treated as this last hope, and it's subverted well both in the Cell arc and Boo arcs with Gohan and Mr. Satan as the ultimate saviors (the "The world had forgotten Son Goku" scene is especially poignant because we hadn't seen Goku fight for almost 100 chapters at this point).

I don't think it's used in Super at all besides the Moro arc, where it does kinda drag out the arc with the mook fights. But in the original series the only point I felt was a bit unnecessary was the one between Ginyu and Freeza. I think his arrival to fight Freeza is a bit diminished since we had just seen him arrive in the same fashion a few chapters before and he lost to Freeza's underling (not at full power, but still). I think the arc would have worked better if he never got out of commission vs Ginyu or they dealt with the Ginyus some other way and he arrived only to fight Freeza.

[TheBigBoy]

The only thing that really bugs me about the trope is it gets to the point where the B team is so outclassed they just sit around and lament about how useless they are. At least earlier on the characters could put up a bit of a fight and it felt like they were contributing. I'm rereading the Android arc again and it gets REALLY bad here. It doesn't help that the character who actually can keep up are going "Well, you're a Super Saiyan? I'm going to go BEYOND Super Saiyan?" "Oh yeah? Well I'm going BEYOND BEYOND Super Saiyan!" "You're both wrong, Gohan is going to go BEYOND BEYOND BEYOND Super Saiyan!"

[Kid Buu]

Well, for all the talk about relying on Goku, I feel like Piccolo and Freeza are the only big bads he really beat by himself.

[MasenkoHA]

Well, for all the talk about relying on Goku, I feel like Piccolo and Freeza are the only big bads he really beat by himself.

Also literally the only time the characters are actually waiting for Goku is…the Saiyan arc. And I guess Mecha Freeza and Cold but that was a subversion since Trunks
intervened and took care of things.

There’s the expectation that Goku will come and help during the Namek arc but Krillin and Gohan also try taking matters into their own hands i.e hiding the dragon balls from Vegeta and Freeza, powering Gohan up with Grand Elder, teaming up with Vegeta etc.

Goku coming back stronger than ever to save the day is definitely a trope Toriyama recycled like a plastic water bottle but the characters crying in fear over the big bad begging for Goku to save them just wasn’t really a thing.

[Yuji]

Well, for all the talk about relying on Goku, I feel like Piccolo and Freeza are the only big bads he really beat by himself.

Also literally the only time the characters are actually waiting for Goku is…the Saiyan arc. And I guess Mecha Freeza and Cold but that was a subversion since Trunks
intervened and took care of things.

There’s the expectation that Goku will come and help during the Namek arc but Krillin and Gohan also try taking matters into their own hands i.e hiding the dragon balls from Vegeta and Freeza, powering Gohan up with Grand Elder, teaming up with Vegeta etc.

Goku coming back stronger than ever to save the day is definitely a trope Toriyama recycled like a plastic water bottle but the characters crying in fear over the big bad begging for Goku to save them just wasn’t really a thing.

No, they definitely intend to wait for Goku in the Cell arc. Trunks outright begs Vegeta to do so. Vegeta is the one moving the plot along. The whole "the world had forgotten about Son Goku" scene hits because we've been waiting for Goku for an entire, super long arc. It's nice it's subverted with Gohan as the savior.

[MasenkoHA]

Well, for all the talk about relying on Goku, I feel like Piccolo and Freeza are the only big bads he really beat by himself.

Also literally the only time the characters are actually waiting for Goku is…the Saiyan arc. And I guess Mecha Freeza and Cold but that was a subversion since Trunks
intervened and took care of things.

There’s the expectation that Goku will come and help during the Namek arc but Krillin and Gohan also try taking matters into their own hands i.e hiding the dragon balls from Vegeta and Freeza, powering Gohan up with Grand Elder, teaming up with Vegeta etc.

Goku coming back stronger than ever to save the day is definitely a trope Toriyama recycled like a plastic water bottle but the characters crying in fear over the big bad begging for Goku to save them just wasn’t really a thing.

No, they definitely intend to wait for Goku in the Cell arc. Trunks outright begs Vegeta to do so. Vegeta is the one moving the plot along. The whole "the world had forgotten about Son Goku" scene hits because we've been waiting for Goku for an entire, super long arc. It's nice it's subverted with Gohan as the savior.

Which part? The Androids? Where Piccolo goes to reunite with God to defeat the Androids? Or when Goku wakes up from his heart virus coma and all 4 Saiyans agree to train in the Room of Spirit of Time. Neither of which involves “All the other characters sitting around and waiting for Goku to save the day”

[Kenji]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

[MasenkoHA]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

I mean unsurprisingly main character gets the privilege of being the main character.

If the supporting characters were completely worthless then I would understand the argument, I think, is being made here. But Kuririn not being the one to liberate the Nameks from Freeza’s genocide by Kienzaning Freeza into pieces and Yamucha not winning the Cell Games by Wolf Fang Fisting Cell to death doesn’t make them useless or worthless.

[SupremeKai25]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

[Kenji]

"Well, Dragon Ball isn't an ensemble story, it's Goku and Goku only, he's the protagonist!"

Then why do the other characters participate?
Why does the story follow them around?
Why is there a need to incapacitate Goku, so the other characters can pretend like they'll actually do something to contribute to the main villain's defeat, only to have every single one of their attempts fail or make things worse?
Why do they often hang around in the sidelines lamenting how powerless they are to do anything?

Dragon Ball doesn't need to be an ensemble story, but if the other characters aren't going to matter much: Write them out.
Or at the very least, don't set them up as super-strong fighters who all train at the same schools and masters who have a chance at anything.
Don't focus on their training, or them getting stronger to prepare for the new threat, or have them try to scramble around trying to find a solution that is just not going to work out in the end.
Just leave them at Goku's house while he goes to another planet to fight the bad guy or whatever.

Focus on Goku and Goku alone, find more creative ways to have him realize the stakes are high and he needs to get better to overcome his obstacles. Give the story consequences, have the villains think Goku is dead and have them wreak havoc while he's missing, and make him feel guilty about his own powerlessness.

Any of these would've worked better.
I don't know, because I'm not a writer myself, that's Toriyama's job.
And as his reader, I think his shortcuts to storytelling are lame.

[Kenji]

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Kuririn, Gohan and Yajirobe - Saiyan Saga.
If Toriyama felt like it, he could've easily written more situations like those.

[super michael]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Hunter X Hunter the main character never battled the main villain the Chimera Ant King. The one who killed the king was

Spoiler:

Isaac Netero with his powerful poison

[Kid Buu]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Giles killed Ben/Glory in Buffy S5.

Sailor Venus killed Queen Beryl in the manga.

Not directly but Naraku pretty much fell apart from Sesshomaru's Bakusaiga attack in Inuyasha.

[Kenji]

Sailor Venus killed Queen Beryl in the manga.

And then Sailor Moon Crystal changed that so Venus failed pathetically and Sailor Moon got to kill Beryl instead.
"Well duuurrhhhh, Sailor Moon is the protagonist, she gets protagonist privileges!" - Said no one ever to praise this change.

[JulieYBM]

I don't think the series even needs to have main enemies defeated by the side characters. The problem with these characters is that they'll start doing something in an arc and then fall to the way side and then the experience just becomes an unfulfilling meal. They can have meatier wrap-ups to their arcs without defeating The Bad Guy if you give them one.

[Kid Buu]

Sailor Venus killed Queen Beryl in the manga.

And then Sailor Moon Crystal changed that so Venus failed pathetically and Sailor Moon got to kill Beryl instead.
"Well duuurrhhhh, Sailor Moon is the protagonist, she gets protagonist privileges!" - Said no one ever to praise this change.

Yeah, that was baffling.

Even in the 1992 anime it was really Endymion who killed Beryl. Metalia resurrected Beryl who then got beaten by the Sailor Moon version of the Father-Son kamehameha.

[Yuji]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Dragon Ball does this constantly. Vegeta is defeated by Gohan (Goku is out of commission halfway through the battle). Cell is defeated by Gohan. Zamasu is defeated by Trunks (Zeno, if you want to be pedantic). Gas is defeated by Granolah/Freeza. Cell Max by Gohan.

It is quite literally the only battle Shounen I can think of where side characters consistently get the W over the major villain. It's surprising it gets any criticism about this at all.

[Kid Buu]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Dragon Ball does this constantly. Vegeta is defeated by Gohan (Goku is out of commission halfway through the battle). Cell is defeated by Gohan. Zamasu is defeated by Trunks (Zeno, if you want to be pedantic). Gas is defeated by Granolah/Freeza. Cell Max by Gohan.

Even Buu wasn't really beaten by Goku if we're being honest. Fat Buu basically did all the fighting while Goku just hit the finisher using an attack made from everyone else energy.

[TheBigBoy]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Baki has Motobe - a low level fighter compared to most of the freaks in the series beat Musashi who was the arc antagonist of the moment. It's not the climax of the arc though.