Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[Kenji]

I never really got the hatred for Pan either, the whole point of her bad behavior and impulsiveness is for her to develop and tell the viewer that you should be more mindful of your friends' feelings. You know... like Vegeta?

Why is it that Vegeta can act like an insufferable piece of shit who makes things worse and needs the rest of the cast to rescue him and fix his shit for him for the entirety of his screen-time in Z, and is beloved for it, but Pan is despised for doing the exact same thing?

Spoiler:

Sexism.

Also, yeah, Pan is admittedly written to be a damsel. But keep in mind: This is a franchise dominated by male writers who cannot write women to be anything other than delicate little flowers who are not allowed to be as competent as their male counterparts, and mostly serve to motivate them to get angry and save the day, so this is nothing new.





Like I said long ago: The difference between Toriyama and the GT writers is that the GT writers are disgusting enough to admit they're sexist. That said, I'll take GT Pan over the empty husk of a "character" that is Pansy and Super!Pan, whose only function is to look cute.

[BernardoCairo]

Uhm, maybe you forgot ChiChi's and Videl's DNA?

To be fair, Chi Chi was never a damsel in distress. Goku never had to save her or anything like that. Maybe he did it once in an episode of the Red Ribbon arc in the anime (I think so, but I don't remember for sure), but that never happened in the original manga.
If anything, it was always clear that she was the one in charge, and Goku feared her

Spoiler:

I don't see any problem with these scenes in particular. Yes, Beerus hit Bulma and Videl was destroyed, but things like that happen very often in Dragon Ball, especially in the original material. Vegeta always comes to mind. He was brutally obliterated so many times. Freeza, Recoome, and even 18. They all humiliated him and tore his body apart.
The first panel looks a bit weird (especially in the colored version that came later), but Cell does have a broader grotesque and abusive aura to him. The moment when he absorbs Android 17, for example, is also frightening. In addition, it's worth mentioning how he hides in the shadows and "consumes" vulnerable people. It's very different from how Freeza, Vegeta, and Piccolo were portrayed before.
By the way, I'm not saying that Toriyama, in particular, was this or that. Personally, I think people can interpret these things however they want (and come to their own conclusions). I just don't quite agree with that in relation to these panels.

[Kenji]

I don't see any problem with these scenes in particular. Yes, Beerus hit Bulma and Videl was destroyed, but things like that happen very often in Dragon Ball, especially in the original material. Vegeta always comes to mind. He was brutally obliterated so many times. Freeza, Recoome, and even 18. They all humiliated him and tore his body apart.
The first panel looks a bit weird (especially in the colored version that came later), but Cell does have a broader grotesque and abusive aura to him. The moment when he absorbs Android 17, for example, is also frightening. In addition, it's worth mentioning how he hides in the shadows and "consumes" vulnerable people. It's very different from how Freeza, Vegeta, and Piccolo were portrayed before.
By the way, I'm not saying that Toriyama, in particular, was this or that. Personally, I think people can interpret these things however they want (and come to their own conclusions). I just don't quite agree with that in relation to these panels.

Never mind the screenshots, I want you to analyze these characters in the grand scope of things and tell me what is their arc and role within the story they're in.

#18: She exists to brutalize Vegeta in his brand new SSJ1 form, only for the story to turn around and say, "You know my brother over there? He's even stronger than me!" Her arc & role is to hype her brother up, then get brutalized, so Kuririn can rescue her and turn her into his trophy wife.

Videl: Once again, her arc & role is to get brutalized, so Gohan can rescue her and turn her into his trophy wife.

Bulma: Her arc & role is to be slapped, so Vegeta can get angry that his trophy wife was hurt and hype Beerus up.

Toriyama also wrote the entirety of Resurrection F and decided that #18 would be better off staying at home taking care of her daughter while Kuririn goes off to the battlefield, despite that betraying all logic that not only was #18 originally stronger than Freeza, but having the weaker family member run off to the battlefield makes zero sense until you realize the real logic behind this is that Toriyama thinks women are better off in the kitchen. And the least said about his treatment of Videl and Chi-Chi, the better.

Oh, and let's not forget about how Pansy is set-up as some kind of superhero in her introduction, manages to spend the entire thing doing almost nothing, and gets offered as some sort of trophy wife for Goku by her father in Daima.

Yeah... there is absolutely nothing wrong with how Toriyama treats his female characters, absolutely nothing.

[BernardoCairo]

Yeah... there is absolutely nothing wrong with how Toriyama treats his female characters, absolutely nothing.

Did I say that? Or did I literally say that people can and should interpret these things in whatever way they see fit?

Personally, I never liked the path they took Videl in Super. It's lame and weak.
But I like do Bulma and Android 18 in the original story. You said that 18 was only there to hype 17 up, but in reality she did more than him in that arc. She "survived" longer and actually won a fight. All 17 did, in comparison, was fight Piccolo and get defeated by Cell. Did Kuririn even save her? He "protected" her body while she was unconscious. But I always interpreted it as him trying harder than he should have, doing something he didn't need to do. He was far inferior to everyone else there...
Of course, they could have done more with her character in Super, but that applies to pretty all the characters in the story. I don't consider her a trophy wife for Kuririn, as she constantly criticizes him for being weak, and he seems insecure about it.And I like that she never fights unless there's money involved (Fukkatsu No F and Majin Boo, for example). But there are many ways to interpret this, and I respect that.

I do think Toriyama could have done way more to his female characters when he was alive. But for me, in particular, this varies from character to character.

(By the way, I am only talking about present 17 and 18 in this post. Their future counterparts have a totally different role in the story, and relation to the main heroes, notably Gohan and Trunks, of course.)

[Mr Baggins]

Wild that this has to be explained, but...

Vegeta is introduced as a villain. The story has him doing things the protagonists find morally reprehensible, and he's clearly not a character you're supposed to sympathize with or relate to. Then, as the series progresses, you can see small glimpses of humanity in him as he's almost routinely forced to face the consequences of his arrogance (including when it's played up for the funnies) while unwittingly growing more attached to a group of people he wants nothing to do with. By the Cell arc, he's strapped with a family of his own. And even with Vegeta being fully redeemed by the end of the Buu arc, it took an entire manga run to get him to that point; gradually, one small step at a time, like an actual person. The point of his character arc is that even an overly entitled scum-of-the-universe piece of shit like Vegeta is capable of profound change.

None of this applies to Pan. She's one of GT's main heroes from the start, she's given sentimental moments from the start, and the writers have the expectation the viewer will sympathize with her from the start. GT obviously wants people to root for Pan. It's just that it completely fails to do this convincingly because GT and execution don't mix, and as was already mentioned, there isn't even enough development here to justify all the weird, random outbursts we would regularly see from this character. And while I could go into great detail to describe every time GT goes out of its way to treat Pan like she's a caricature, I feel most of the replies in these two threads explain it sufficiently. The problem isn't that the original work should be immune from criticism for its own misogynistic tropes, the problem is that GT doubles down on its treatment disturbingly often as Pan is front and center – from beginning to end, to the point that it's blindingly apparent.

For a much closer (and intended) analog in GT's sister sequels, there's Pansy from Daima, or Pan herself from Super Hero. Yes, these are also characters that don't have much in the way of an "arc". There's probably a number of things the writing could have done to make them better. However, they are both A) considerably less annoying for the screentime they're designed to fill and B) portrayed as much more capable in comparison. Hell, Super Hero actively subverts the "damsel in distress" thing in a funny way to show that its own version of Pan is anything but.

And to anyone that vibed with GT's Pan, look, ultimately, to each their own. But maybe just chill on dishing out sexism accusations at large swathes of the fandom because they happen to like Vegeta a little more. We're all adults here, I presume. I think we can defend our preferences without resorting to nonsense like that.

[Kenji]

Wild that this has to be explained but...

Maybe don't start your counter-post by acting like a "I am so smart, I can't believe how dumb you are and I need to explain this to you" little shit, immediately attacking, dismissing and invalidating a woman's perspective, and maybe women will actually respect you and believe you're debating in good faith, and actually invest time in debating with you, and not immediately disregard everything you're saying as the angry rambles of an insecure, defensive man a little too attached to a children's fairy tale. Just saying.

But that's on me for caving into curiosity and not respecting my own block on certain people.

[Mr Baggins]

Maybe don't start your counter-post by acting like a pseudo-intellectual little shit, immediately attacking, dismissing and invalidating a woman's perspective, and maybe women will actually respect you and believe you're debating in good faith and listen to you, and not immediately disregard everything you're saying as the angry rambles of an insecure, defensive man a little too attached to a children's fairy tale.

I... what?

I dunno where this is coming from, but nowhere in that post did I personally attack you at all. I calmly elucidated why I thought the comparison between two different characters with patently different roles was flawed, then mentioned at the end that you're still entitled to your opinion about the characters you like. You're the only one here directing insults at people (first at anyone that prefers Vegeta over Pan because apparently they're sexist, and now at me for being "insecure" or "a pseudo-intellectual little shit", whatever that means). I am surprised it needed explanation.

Clearly, I'm not the one getting angry over a series aimed at children. But by all means, you can keep your block.

[JulieYBM]

We live in a largely sexist world. Sexism has not disappeared with time, it has simply gotten better at hiding itself, which includes fandom spaces. Acting like a woman is being unreasonable—or should I say the more commonly lobbied 'irrational'—by calling that shit out with the barest minimum of vigilance is bordering on gaslighting lol.

I would categorize the responses to Kenji's posts as being pretty emblematic of the sort of 'feigned dispassion' you often see from men when discussing the depictions of girls and women in media. If a man isn't wearing his sexism on his shoulder he's pulling the "I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation for this and I invite people to draw their own conclusions blah, blah, blah" bullshit, because taking a woman's definitive criticism of how girls and women are depicted in media would be offering us legitimacy that boys and men are systemically inclined not to for their own social and financial/material benefit.

Like, I dunno girls, I just think it's pretty obvious that we have these same fucking conversations every other thread over-and-over for a reason and it sure as shit isn't because the women—and occasional man!—criticizing sexist/misogynistic media depictions of women are wrong. It reminds me of the typical conservative rhetoric of never admitting that you're wrong and constantly changing goal posts back-and-forth to exhaust opposition until there is no discussion, there is no opposition, there is only the conservative view.

Anyway, go reread Kenji's post six or seven more times.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't think anyone in this thread was disputing that Dragon Ball has a history of sexism. I feel there's a wealth of perfectly valid critiques to be made on that topic, some of which I've touched on myself, though I'm in agreement with Bernardo this can vary enough that, depending on the exact character and situation, there's sometimes room for discussion and debate.

Videl is certainly an example of a character that could use some major improvement, especially in Super where she's reduced to a glorified housewife for the whole run. GT Pan, as I've pointed out, is also riddled with misogyny as a whole.

Where my post took issue was solely with the notion that Pan had the same purpose as Vegeta, and perhaps especially the notion that people with some appreciation for the writing of his character over Pan's was because of some internalized misogyny against women (???). I find that ridiculous on its face.

[Kenji]

"But Vegeta's outbursts are justified, because he's a villain! It's ridiculous to assume misogyny has anything to do here!"
And Pan is a 9-year old child, one who went against her relatives' wishes to stay out of an extremely dangerous trip to space.
Both stories have their reasons for why characters behave the way they do.

Ultimately, the reasons behind why don't matter, both of these characters have a well-established pattern of:
- Getting cocky/angry
- Rushing ahead against all better judgement
- Screwing everything up
- Having to get rescued by their peers
- Learning absolutely nothing until the very last minute of the show.

Here's the thing about my "sexism" comment:
You will never see anybody (well, not men at least) saying Vegeta is an insufferable character for repeating this pattern, because a man doing all of this is seen as manly and cool, rather than simply insufferable. In fact, Vegeta's pre-development behavior is seen by a considerable part of the fandom to be acceptable, and lament on how Super turned him into a joke by having him do silly dances to protect his home planet.

Rather than accepting that Vegeta just had a huge surge of character development and became a better person overall, parts of the fandom are sad that their beacon of pure machismo is now less manly than before. Heck, in this same thread, you have people arguing that Vegeta from GT is a downgrade because "he became a boring family man."

There is no way you can deny that sexism plays a huge part in the general perception of these characters.

[BernardoCairo]

I would categorize the responses to Kenji's posts as being pretty emblematic of the sort of 'feigned dispassion' you often see from men when discussing the depictions of girls and women in media. If a man isn't wearing his sexism on his shoulder he's pulling the "I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation for this and I invite people to draw their own conclusions blah, blah, blah" bullshit, because taking a woman's definitive criticism of how girls and women are depicted in media would be offering us legitimacy that boys and men are systemically inclined not to for their own social and financial/material benefit.

All I did was argue using pieces and bits of the story that I like and dislike. At no point did I disregard their view of the story, or say that they were being "irrational," as you said. I laid out the characters because, yes, I'm definitely not looking for a definitive answer on anything, otherwise I wouldn't have even joined the forum.
I don't know why, as usual, this has become an unbearable and toxic exercise of finger-pointing. This makes this site exhausting. I personally respect their opinion, and even agree with some of it. But I want to share my input, yes. Otherwise I would never come back.

Heck, in this same thread, you have people arguing that Vegeta from GT is a downgrade because "he became a boring family man."

To answer this in particular, I was the one who initially raised the "issue", but my problem isn't that he became a "boring family man." I even like that aspect of his character in Super. It's just that I think the writers took his epiphany at the end of the series too literally and removed the competitiveness that, in my opinion, made the character great. Of course, like everyone in GT, he also was pathetically underutilized too.

[Kenji]

To answer this in particular, I was the one who initially raised the "issue", but my problem isn't that he became a "boring family man." I even like that aspect of his character in Super. It's just that I think the writers took his epiphany at the end of the series too literally and removed the competitiveness that, in my opinion, made the character great. Of course, like everyone in GT, he also had a pathetically underutilized too.

Vegeta did remain competitive in GT.
He's the one to suggest Goten & Trunks go to space because they're slacking too much.
He still keeps training and trying to keep up with Goku. In the recap episode, he says "I'm not out to defeat you anymore, Kakarot. I just want to know what my limits are. I'm going to become stronger still!"

That's actually healthy competitive spirit. Although I will agree GT underutilized him.

[Mr Baggins]

Heck, in this same thread, you have people arguing that Vegeta from GT is a downgrade because "he became a boring family man."

That's not what I said.

GT Vegeta isn't boring because he's a family man. He's boring because the series reduces him to a family man at the expense of who he is as an individual (particularly an individual who strives to be the best) when, as Super and even a miniseries like Daima illustrates, you can easily portray both sides. I guess it doesn't help he only shows up when it's convenient for the plot.

For the record, Bingo Dance Vegeta is probably my favorite iteration of the character ever. Cell arc Vegeta, and maybe even latter Buu arc Vegeta, would never have subjected himself to those actions to protect his family. It's great.

If you can point me to where someone said Vegeta's development somehow made him lamer, I'd agree that's a pretty overtly sexist interpretation of the character. But I generally haven't seen that.

[BernardoCairo]

Vegeta did remain competitive in GT.

Yes, and no. They did have the recap episode, yes. But for me it was too little too late. I don't like how Super Saiyajin 4 Vegeta was put in the story just because the writters wanted Gogeta to come back. But yes, I do like his scenes with Trunks, Goten and Pan.
I feel like Super managed to keep him competitive and a true rival, while not making him obsessed with Goku, like he was in Z. Even though, of course, he can get a bit repetitive in the anime.

The one thing I really hate about GT is his reunion with Nappa. I don't know why, but I expected that moment to have much more meaning behind it.

[Kenji]

To each their own, but I will say this:
I like that GT initially simply accepted Vegeta had moved on and the story moved on along with him.

Super's and Daima's tendency of shoehorning him into stories he doesn't belong in, where he has little to nothing to do, all for the sake of reminding the audience he still exists and is forever doomed to fulfill the role of Goku's weaker rival doesn't engage me at all.

At times, it's infuriating how inconsistent he is, like telling his copy to just murder Goku already because he's embarrassing him (), or saying Goku has a flaw of not going all-out from the very beginning and proceeding to do the exact same thing (), or berating and beating the shit out of Future Trunks for seeking help (), the list goes on and on.

Vegeta in Super and Daima doesn't strike me like he learned much from his time in Z. He still reads like an angry, abusive little shit forever dealing with a massive inferiority complex. Hence why I call his character insufferable, at least while in the hands of Toriyama.

[angeldreamZ004]

I like to look at the decision of de-aging Goku as something Toei intended as being part of Goku's new training arc and discovery and also led up to SSJ4. It would not only raise the peril, but also open a new room for Goku's self growth as well. But like you said, it ended up having no purpose. When SSJ4 is introduced, it becomes even worse, because it makes Goku taller again, resulting in the de-aging being even more meaningless after that, Kid Goku had no longer a purpose given how his SSJ4 had no limitations as well.
It's a side effect, Goku is supposed to remain as the strongest, but at the same time becoming a kid again is supposed to make him follow a new path to become the strongest (?), it was supposed to bring him limitations, by also allowing other characters to shine, but we just don't see that (?). We do see the attempts though, such as his Shunkan Ido failing, but they pretty much stopped after a few episodes.

It only accomplished the most when he tried to unlock the SSJ4 through the advantage that being a kid again allowed his tail to grow again, something that wouldn't happen if he was an adult for example. So maybe it would've been better if Goku remained an adult after acquiring the SSJ4? maybe you can look at it this way. It doesn't really make sense how he magically becomes an adult in SSJ4 due to his child body not being appropriate for it, but SSJ1-SSJ3 are. So something supernatural involved maybe, the SSJ4 is strong to this point where the power is above the curse of the DBs, and maybe it got weaker after the DBs got corrupted. This is only me speculating though (which is what makes me like it more than SSJ3)

I think Toriyama handled the “de-aging” concept better in Daima though. We actually do see and feel that the characters got weaker and the full power is in their adult forms. The SSJ4 even remains in mini form before they become adults, which makes more sense than what GT did imo.

He didn't slow down, the first time we see Vegeta in Battle of Gods (or in The Beerus arc, by ignoring the “filler” that takes place prior to the primary events) he's still very active in training, he didn't change that aspect at all and only learned to spend more time with his family which is something that started way back in the Boo Saga for example. While Goku had to start spending time in job.
He didn't want to attend Bulma's birthday, he went there because of the peril and possibility of Beerus ruining everything. This shows how mature his characters became, as he deals with threats because they have the potential to harm the peace of those he cares about. A Cell saga Vegeta for example would only show up at the party because he would want to show Beerus that he's the best. That changed, he does ridiculous things such as the bingo dance for that reason, and it's the reason why he managed to temporarily become stronger than Goku as well.

Yeah, I'm not denying that he was always a popular character with his own significant pov moments and importance to the plot, but it wasn't until the Boo arc that he became The Second Protagonist. Up until then, it was Gohan, notably in the way the Saiyan arc parallels his and Goku's training, and the way Namek has him being Goku's surrogate on a DB hunt with Bulma and Kuririn (and where Vegeta is still The Second Antagonist until the Ginyu portion). Think about it from a production standpoint: if Goku had permanently exited the story after the Saiyan or Namek arcs, it would not have shifted to being primarily about Vegeta, even if he stuck around as a major character.

Agree, plus, it's also one of the reasons why it takes until Movie 6 for him to finally appear in the old Z Movies (this + the Toei staff very likely not being aware that Toriyama planned to keep him around as a major character after Namek). Plus, the first Broly movie, where he's clearly the second protagonist and one the key reasons for the plot moving forward. That being obvious given how Broly 1 is supposed to be the movie equivalent to the Post-Imperfect Cell and Pre-Cell Games portion of the Cell Saga, where he engaged a lot.

I think it's kinda funny how abruptly and totally Gohan is dropped, well below even third main character, once Boo absorbs him. Outside of SH or the odd side story giving him the spotlight, he's just another side character now. Generational fall off.

i think it's funny too, but sorry, what do you mean with “odd side story”? Can't recognize it, the 2008 OVA / manga?

Yeah, the main protagonist does get shuffled in this arc more than any other, though I wouldn't say it's that frequent. Initially, Gohan is the protagonist during the high school stuff. Once Goku re-enters the story, they more or less share the role. Once Gohan goes back to Earth, he's back to the main guy again, but once he's absorbed Goku takes his place (mirroring and inverting Goku conceding against Cell and Gohan taking his place). Vegeta then takes over the number 2 spot (and has never left ).

I hesitate to treat Goten and Trunks as the main characters, even while they fight Boo, because Gohan is still there in the background planning to return. So I think the story is still one with Gohan as the ultimate lead at that point. Sure, the kids' fight gets the story's attention while it's happening, but their stab at Boo is structurally akin to, say, Kuririn getting his fight in the quarter or semi finals in a tournament arc. Of course we're seeing that fight, even if he's not the main character.

Don't forget Mr. Satan, he's a fundamental part, the Boo Arc completely breaks apart without him XD

There's that "flaw" (?) you mention, but there's also progression, like, he's the one who suggests fusion in the first place which is something Dragon Ball Super (by virtue of its time placement) should have developed it, but they instead chose to keep the trope of him being against it. I don't remember much, but I don't recall Vegeta wanting to fight alone against the opponents in Dragon Ball GT, which is also something Dragon Ball Super should have built up. It's like most characters are stuck in their Majin Buu saga selves. It's very weird.

Because it goes against what Super clearly tries to develop, which is not Vegeta letting go of his pride or “arrogance”, but rather transforming it for his own self growth and improvement of his relationship with those around him.

-In BoG he decides to help Goku achieve the SSJG because the events made it clear for him that there are more important things in the game, such as the prophecy and the presence of supernatural beings who just wrote fate (Beerus, Shenlong, Oracle Fish). The Vegeta from the original series would try to prove and insist that he was the SSJGod of Beerus' prophecy.

-In Fukkatsu no ‘F’ / Golden Freeza, his confidence and acceptance of training under the lessons of the same master as Goku help him tap into the power of SSJG without even using the ritual, and Goku is later shown to admirate that.
He denies Freeza's offer not only because of his hatred against him, but also because he straight up says that he needs Goku in order to become stronger. This is not because of his selfishness but because he uses Goku as a healthy inspiration for his own self-improvement and to protect those around him, so he had to replace Goku because he messed up against Freeza. It's a huge contrast to what he did in the original series where Goku was a toxic inspiration for him, that's why he accepted Babidi to give him power in the Boo Saga.

This is only the beginning of Super and the next story arcs further develop on this. He accepts more and more that it's not all about him and his rivalry against Goku, and that he does need help from others to achieve what he desires, he went to Yardart for that reason, which is another example of him taking Goku as a healthy inspiration for his improvement.

Understands the emotional side of his loved ones, such as Mirai Trunks, after he tells him about Mirai Bulma, he agrees to do fusion with Goku, as he recognizes that it's more than only being stronger than Zamasu.

The Granola arc also further explores his maturity, as it shows that he still lets the actions of the Saiyajins’ past get into his head and affect his pride. It connects to DBS Broly, where he tries to kill Broly before the Ikari form, something Goku tells him to not do, but he still does because he believes that Broly and Paragus’ hatred towards King Vegeta will always make them his enemies.
Granola follows that same concept, but with an even more mature Vegeta who understands that his messed up past does not dictate his journey for strength but rather can be used as reference for further enhancement and enlightenment. Unlike Granola who only sought power to become the universe's strongest and take revenge on Saiyajins and Freeza, very akin to original series Vegeta who always desired for power to show “who's the best” and to take “revenge” on Goku for not fighting for the same reasons as he did. He understands Granola's mindset for that reason, that's why he gets angry at Goku for trying to help him, Granola wasn't a threat and Vegeta saw his fight against him as a test for both.
Vegeta only accepts to fight alongside Goku when the actual threat, Gas, shows up, and the Hiita had no hope, but Granola had, that's why he also decides to help Granola alongside Goku.

So It's not about fighting together, it's about learning towards Goku as an inspiration in a positive and healthy way opposing his toxic ideals in the original series. It doesn't involve him abandoning traditions such as his love to fight his opponents alone, if neither Goku abandons that, why would he, that's why he follows his own new path for improvement.

He decides to team up with Goku in the ending (ToP Manga & Anime) or give his energy to Goku (ToP anime) for those reasons. Goku and Freeza teamed up to win the ToP, leading to Goku allowing Freeza's revival, something Vegeta complains about in DBS Broly, but in Super Hero he has a different view on it + the past villains.

We would only have DBS Vegeta fighting together with Goku all the time if his development was about becoming a full ally like any other. Which would lead up to pretty much Vegeta also achieving the UI for example, as he would always be following what Goku does, and not his own individual path. The reason he gets his own transformation shows that Super proposes this whole new arc for his character where he doesn't abandon his beliefs, he still wants to surpass Kakarot, but that changes in order to appeal to the opposite side, which allows him to engage in training alongside his rival in a sportsmanlike way, and also being more protective of his loved ones.

I don't buy this argument. As I said before, I think the writers took the phrase "Kakarotto, you're number 1" too literally. Vegeta becoming a family man is a good idea, all subsequent series have explored this in one way or another. But in GT, that's all Vegeta is. They took away the edge of the character. As I said before, Vegeta would never stop trying to be the best. Him adopting Goku's mentality and becoming his equal is the best conclusion for the character, in my opinion.
The Vegeta in Super is not the same as he was in the Majin Boo arc. He cares about family and values ​​people beyond strength, unlike did before. He is Goku's rival, but in a friendly/sportsmanlike way. He's not obsessed like before. But he still wants to be number one, like Goku. This puts him in a middle ground between Majin Boo arc Vegeta and end of Z Vegeta, which I really like. Not to mention that he actually does things in the story. GT Vegeta suggests the fusion dance, but what else does he do? Transform into a Super Saiyajin 4 with Bulma's help? These are good ideas, but they aren't explored enough. And this creates the feeling that, in the end, Vegeta is only there so that Gogeta can appear, since the series focuses exclusively on Goku for 95% of its duration.
I'm not saying that Super Vegeta is perfect either. He is a huge step down from manga Vegeta. I just think GT, in particular, did him dirty.

Like, Vegeta himself? Dude's a mellowed out Piccolo 2.0 now without the charm, except for his funny porn stache. The point of his development in the Buu arc was in letting go of his entitlement, which in no way meant dropping his core hobbyist drive, and the Kanzenban ending had to go out of its way to make that clear. In GT, his role as a family man overrides his individuality far more often than it supplements it. This isn't Vegeta at all.

I don't think GT Vegeta is bad or done dirty. But I do agree with the rest.
The point is that he basically goes through a different development from the one he has in Super. He completely let it go of his ego in order to become a full ally.
That's why he decides to transform into a SSJ4 through Bulma's technology, he doesn't care about training to achieve it for example, because for him it is more important to use any more efficient ways to help his friends.
So it kinda makes sense to say that he's a Piccolo 2.0, no wonder why Piccolo had to disappear from the series, as Piccolo does work with a similar mentality. In Super Hero he decided to wish for strength from Shenlong instead of training, and asked for Gohan's help. GT Vegeta is pretty much like that and I do like it, the problem is that he's underutilized imo.
So I prefer DBS Vegeta for that reason + I think his arc in DBS is more interesting.
But there are, the two versions of him following their own different paths, you'll pick the one that is more interesting for you and is closer to how you think a Post-Boo arc Vegeta should be.

If GT Vegeta was more active, I think we would've seen him achieving the SSJ3 for example.

It's like most characters are stuck in their Majin Buu saga selves. It's very weird.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Super or GT or both here. But in Super's case, more or less, we do start to see more development on Gohan and Piccolo starting from Fukkatsu no ‘F’, which leads to Gohan returning to fights and Piccolo guiding him, something we effectively stopped seeing after the Saiyajin arc.
The First episode of the Super anime has Piccolo seeming to not be so satisfied when looking at Gohan living a completely normal life.
I think ToP presents a good dynamic between them too but it's not until Super Hero where we actually get to see what Super really wants to do with these characters. Piccolo teaches him that helping his family is not only about being a successful family man but also about embracing his potential in regards to fights and how he can use it to improve himself and protect those he cares about, which is what made Videl interested in him in the first place.

Present Trunks is supposed to going through a new development in the Zamasu arc, involving his romantic relationship with Mai (hinted by BoG), but almost nothing comes from that, we only get to see it again in the Super Hero prequel and epilogue arcs, where he shows to be aiming for power to also protect people and those he loves. That's one of the reasons he chooses to become a super hero.

Goten though? Unfortunately he's indeed forever stuck in his Boo arc self, and I don't think this is even Super's fault as I think he pretty much had nothing to offer in the Boo arc other than fusing with Trunks while having the emotional push from ChiChi getting killed by Super Boo. He's not really given anything that is independent and he's always just there to be the less expressive part of his duo with Trunks. No wonder why the Trunks scenes are the only parts I remember the most from the Super Hero Highschool arc. Toriyama didn't want to do anything with this character, so he completely disappears in Super, having zero relevancy in the manga in between the Beerus and Super Hero arcs, and the anime only giving him some filler where he's just always there to be Trunks’ “sidekick”.

As for the rest of Z-senshi, they are indeed stuck in their Boo arc selves as well, I do like the development Kuririn goes through though and I also liked the treatment Roshi and Tenshinhan received in Super.
Yamcha obviously will always be just a memory, in his case it's not only his character stagnating in the Boo arc, but much earlier, after the Tenshinhan arc, or the Saiyajin arc at the very least, given his cock personality in Super. Poor guy. And we don't talk about Chaozu.

Piccolo? Shows up out of nowhere expressly to die on everyone's behalf for more cheap melodrama in the same vein as Buu, except here it makes even less sense; why the fuck does Piccolo of all people need another sacrificial atonement? There's about a million more effective ways to remove the black star balls, as their linked Namekian, without all the weird suicidal ideation shit attached to the writing. This isn't Piccolo at all.

I believe that Piccolo is supposed to work as some kind of callback to the character of Kami, back in the Majunior Saga, where he tried to kill Piccolo Jr., also because of Earth Dragon Balls being used mostly for negative and selfish thoughts in his view. GT showing the consequences of Goku and the others not allowing him to eliminate Piccolo (then himself and the DBs) pretty much puts an end to that arc, like a bad ending. I do like it, but I understand why your disappointment with it.

Majin Buu? Shows up out of nowhere expressly to merge with Uub, a guy he has zero relationship with and zero motivation to fuse because the writers wanted forced melancholy from a goofy pink toddler, effectively making him absent for the rest of the series for a plot point that amounted to nothing anyway. It's actually a bigger insult to the character than having him snooze through certain story arcs in Super. This isn't Majin Buu at all.

And I think this was made to work as a parallel to Piccolo fusing with Kami. The problem is that Piccolo went through a considerable long character arc before becoming one with Kami. I didn't see this with Uub, so the impact of Majuub is nowhere as close to Kamiccolo and the fact that he became irrelevant very fast didn't help either.

Goku? Now apparently more willing to accept defeat or morally grandstand against a number of major opponents than enjoy a challenging fight. And he's supposedly an experienced fighter with great battle sense that... spams ki blasts against enemies that can absorb ki to become stronger after being explicitly told his enemy can absorb ki to become stronger. This isn't Goku at all.

Which I believe has to do with what I commented above about him no longer having a improvement arc in GT. His main love is fighting strong opponents, getting stronger and training. But once he learned everything, there's no training. Once he becomes his own master, he can't become stronger. Once the opponents stop being a competition and a way for his self-growth, they stop being obstacles and become just the villain of the week. There's no longer the concept of discovery or unknown boundaries for him, which is what we follow with him in the original series and Super.
His GT-Self is pretty much closer to the “Superman” stereotype that many people say that was served as inspiration for him.

Pan? Probably the single most insufferable character in the show. Goes from an energetic, enthusiastic martial artist to this absurdly annoying brat for the entire run who was purposely written to be a damsel in distress to prop up other heroes. Just an absolute butchering of the strong little girl we were introduced to in EoZ, and the end result isn't even mildly compelling or fun. This isn't Goku's granddaughter at all.

The ultimate folly of GT is that it tries to cash in on all the emotional investment built up over a series where these characters had things to do for a sequel series where they're given nothing to do, and don't act like themselves, and can't even have halfway decent chemistry with the other characters. The other two sequels, in a broader sense, don't suffer from this. Obviously that's because Toriyama was more involved, but it says a lot that a single interaction between any two characters in Daima tends to be infinitely more entertaining than their entire screentime in GT.

None of this applies to Pan. She's one of GT's main heroes from the start, she's given sentimental moments from the start, and the writers have the expectation the viewer will sympathize with her from the start. GT obviously wants people to root for Pan. It's just that it completely fails to do this convincingly because GT and execution don't mix, and as was already mentioned, there isn't even enough development here to justify all the weird, random outbursts we would regularly see from this character. And while I could go into great detail to describe every time GT goes out of its way to treat Pan like she's a caricature, I feel most of the replies in these two threads explain it sufficiently. The problem isn't that the original work should be immune from criticism for its own misogynistic tropes, the problem is that GT doubles down on its treatment disturbingly often as Pan is front and center – from beginning to end, to the point that it's blindingly apparent.

I do like Pan in GT and I think she has good emotional development, she gets more mature as the series progressed. The problem is, that's just not enough, she's a “new” character in a sequel series that lacks a fundamental part of Dragon Ball that the original author worked with. She has no reason to become stronger, if her role is all about being this ally who has some drama here and there, but no personal journey for herself, then what's left? She'll just keep following others until the end of the show? We only got to see something beyond that when she had to save Goku and Trunks after they got neutralized by the machine mutants (my favorite part of her character in the entire show).
But we don't even get to see her achieving SSJ1 which is crazy imo, why we don't see this girl's fighting potential being used for her self-improvement? Learn new techniques? Fighting styles? Meeting new people that can help with her growth in battles and spiritual enhancement? Taking inspirations? Why not take her to the ROSAT? She's just an ally? that's it?
It’s what leads to her losing her relevancy, we don't get a “Goku 2.0” with her just like we got with Gohan (and almost with Goten)
I think most people who hate GT Pan are actually either biased or hate GT as a whole, not just her character.
I can see where this is coming from, because Toei tried to make her one of the main characters, but ended up being just like the characters Toriyama abandoned throughout the run of his manga.

If there's something we can notice from Toriyama, is that he completely dropped the characters that he felt had little to nothing to contribute to his story which started to prioritize a lot character growth based on fights. These characters either no longer had interest in engaging, or simply prioritized something else that was more important for them, becoming allies but not an active essential part of the story. It’s what we see happening to the likes of Yamcha, Chaozu, Roshi, Tenshinhan, Videl, Yajirobe, etc. They stop engaging in battles because self-improvement in battles stop being part of their arcs, they become either emotional support or tools for some strategy (Yajirobe and Karin with Senzu).

My problem with Pan is pretty much very similar to the problem I have with Goten, I just don't see what Toriyama actually wanted to do with this character, no wonder why he's completely forgotten after Gotenks starts his fight with Super Boo. I feel that Trunks has a lot more to him in that arc, with Super threatening to give him even more development in 2 arcs. While Poor Kid Goku #3 is just there, completely stagned at his Boo arc self, as Trunks' sidekick.

So I think that's unfortunate both for Goten and GT Pan, they had potential, but for the former, Toriyama was completely uninterest to work him, while Pan was unlucky for being choosen to be one of the main characters of a sequel series that lacked one of the main cores that make Dragon Ball work, the consequence was she becoming a “damsel in distress” because the show keeps her weak due to it failing to give her a “path to strength” of her own, which is something the other characters also lacked, but they had a much shorter screen time, so they can't be criticized as much.

These characters need a reason to improve on themselves, it's just not the emotional side.
If it's all about having emotional connections and fighting the villain of the week with your established arsenal, then you can go and watch the Old Z movies, they were all about that, that's why Goku almost always defeats the villains in those movies, in contrast to the original series or Super. GT pretty much follows the old Z movies formula, but translated into Arc format, that's also why Goku is the one to defeat the main villains in GT arcs.

(And I'll ignore all that real life-sexist-misogyny matters debate for the sake of this thread, It has nothing to do with the discussion, no issue if you guys want to discuss that but there are surely other threads or sites that are much more appropriate for you to talk about those things, here we are simply discussing our invidual thoughts as humans on a children's fictional series, regardless of any gender or sexual orientation.)

Back to main topic, I believe what I said above about the characters is what I missed the most from Daima. I think Neva had a huge potential to be the central figure of the “training” arc of the series, he could've been Daima's equivalent to what Roshi-Karin-Kamisama-Kaio-Beerus-Whis-Merus were for Goku. I think it would not only make his relationship with Goku stronger, but also help Daima feel less unnecessarily long, and by consequence, also adding extra substance to SSJ4 and Goku & friends’ journey to the Makai, I'm always happy when Dragon Ball has that kind of subplot. No idea if he thought that it would be repetitive because of Monaito in the Granola saga, or something else. The way we got anyway has Goku delivering the surprise at the end that he has been training, and him showing his growth in a fanservice scene mimicking the first time he transformed into SSJ3 against Boo. Which is kinda underwhelming to me.

[Zephyr]

i think it's funny too, but sorry, what do you mean with “odd side story”? Can't recognize it, the 2008 OVA / manga?

I mean stuff like the 2 parter in Super where they're making a Great Saiyaman movie, or this shelved concept for a GT story:

For each character, plenty of subplots existed that never made it to the screen.

For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.

Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again. For instance, people he loved, like Videl, had been hurt, and when in the depths of anguish, he happened to open up his wardrobe, inside was his dōgi from fondly-remembered times. Together with the line, “To think there’d come a day I’d wear this again…”, he brushes off Chi-Chi, who in tears is trying to stop him, and makes a shocking, lightning entrance on the battlefield. Considering the status of the character, I wanted to spend one or two episodes showing that level of resolve, and I recall having even written the plot for it. But it’s a subplot that diverges from the main story, I guess you could say, so due to various circumstances, it never came to fruition, and it ended up stopping at the level of, he takes off his glasses, and takes on the eyes of a warrior. (laughs)

Don't forget Mr. Satan, he's a fundamental part, the Boo Arc completely breaks apart without him XD

Yeah, he's also very important, but I don't think he was ever one of the 2 main protagonists.