"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

[Velasa]

Fasha and Videl too, and Pan if you feel like counting her.

Aah, I'll admit completely forgetting about Videl. Though Fasha I've never so much as heard of before. (edit- oh, Seilpa! Alright, I'd forgotten her too.) Pan? That's be in GT, and my arguments were centering on DB/Z as the part I know and love and can comment on.

Watched two episodes of Azumanga Daioh over the summer. Had no idea what the fuck was going on and ran away from it screaming.

If it makes you feel better, Piccolo and the Nameks could be considered female since they lay eggs.

That's actually a painful thought, because I find nameccian men about as distracting as you find the skirts in sailor moon > >

The egg thing actually is awesome, though it's probably best if I don't go into why

[Rocketman]

Aah, I'll admit completely forgetting about Videl. Though Fasha I've never so much as heard of before. (edit- oh, Seilpa! Alright, I'd forgotten her too.) Pan? That's be in GT, and my arguments were centering on DB/Z as the part I know and love and can comment on.

She shows up as a four-year old at the end of Z, where she beats Goten to a pulp at the World Tournament.

Watched two episodes of Azumanga Daioh over the summer. Had no idea what the fuck was going on and ran away from it screaming.

Aw, you missed out. It's pretty much the funniest thing I've ever watched.

The egg thing actually is awesome, though it's probably best if I don't go into why

I've been on the internet long enough to guess.

[Velasa]

She shows up as a four-year old at the end of Z, where she beats Goten to a pulp at the World Tournament.

Alright, ya got me again. Nother part I haven's seen. *curses the dvd release sequence yet again* That brings us to- 18, Chichi, Videl, Ranchi, Seilpa and little Pan I believe. Zangula, though she looked cool, I recall getting off some two punches before Bojak uses her as a meat shield so I don't know where I'd list her. Unbalance is still there. I'd like to like the female characters, really. But the only one of the whole list who I really like is Ranchi and she basically gets deleted halfway through the sayiajin saga. The rest... just arent that interesting.

*shakefish* Bwah!

*it jumps away. time to chase after it*

Aw, you missed out. It's pretty much the funniest thing I've ever watched.

It could have been funny.... if there was any sort of narrative thread giving me an idea of anything that was going on o_O I mean, I can do random, but that was just crazy. I need at least a little context.

[Rocketman]

Aw, you missed out. It's pretty much the funniest thing I've ever watched.

It could have been funny.... if there was any sort of narrative thread giving me an idea of anything that was going on o_O I mean, I can do random, but that was just crazy. I need at least a little context.[/quote]

Yeah, it is better to watch it from the start and in order. There is a narrative thread, but if you happened to watch scenes from, say, the third year of school, a lot of the jokes are based on characterization built up from the beginning.

[Velasa]

I watched the first two episodes > > Somebody new showed up to the school, there were pigtails and some scarey cats and track and it just completely evaded both me and my younger brother sense-wise. My older brother loves it though, he's the one we borrowed it from in the first place.

[Jerseymilk]

Zangula, though she looked cool, I recall getting off some two punches before Bojak uses her as a meat shield so I don't know where I'd list her.

She's a little more involved than that. Zangya's easily on equal footing with the rest of Bojack's team. She gives Mirai Trunks a good run for his money, who had just taken out Gokua without too much trouble. Gets quite a few shots in at Gohan as well(I hated her for that XD). Then there's the scene with her totally owning Kuririn near the start who completely underestimates her thinking she's just part of Satan's fighters and counting himself lucky to get such a "cutey" as an opponent. Poor guy. XD

[Onikage725]

Am I the only one who thinks that if this is a problem, its with the whole industry? I really can't think of many boys shows that are overflowing with main female protagonists. Tekkaman Blade, you have Aki who is basically the love interest (though she does become a Tekkaman between the first and second series) and Blade's sister who dies a few episodes after she is introduced. Ronin Warriors has Mia running around in a Bulma-esque fashion (and no the irony isn't lost on me) and Lady Kayura for a brief non-villain time. Yu Yu Hakusho has Genkai. The other major women are background support, even Botan (who is one of my favorite characters, don't get me wrong). I won't sit here and pluck through a dozen shows, but I will say it isn't even limited to anime. It's a genre thing. American comic books are pretty good at the balance, and shows based on them are ok in this regard usually, but beyond that it is slim pickings.

I do want to reiterate a point that's already been brought up, and I think it's an essential one... the article, while obviously emotionally-appealing to the actual DBZ fans, isn't necessarily intended for them.

I get where you're coming from, and I agree that this is probably true. But then...
"Maybe it's justified since many believe it's just a "kids" show, but most DBZ fans see it as more than that so the show should be held to higher standards."

The author is using the fans as a basis to bash the show. If he's gonna use us as an excuse to flame the show, then he doesn't get a pass on the "its meant for the casual reader" angle.

Then there's talk of the one dimensional villains, followed by 18's "Mommy duty."

If we're going to ignore the entirety of Dragon Ball, let's not delve into GT, ok? Sure, Freeza, Cell, and Buu have fairly one track minds. But I wouldn't say Vegeta, Piccolo, or Tenshinhan were one-dimensional.

And the fanboyism complaint pisses me off, if only because it is biased. Most anime boards I've gone to besides this one is full of otaku who consider it cool to bash Dragon Ball. "We watch GOOD anime, like One Peice" I was told once. Wherever this army of diehard DBZ otaku is plotting to take over, please direct me so I can sign up. I've been looking for years.

[Raki]

And the fanboyism complaint pisses me off, if only because it is biased. Most anime boards I've gone to besides this one is full of otaku who consider it cool to bash Dragon Ball. "We watch GOOD anime, like One Peice" I was told once. Wherever this army of diehard DBZ otaku is plotting to take over, please direct me so I can sign up. I've been looking for years.

I see it often as well. Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub. The One Piece quote you have up there is funny, being as Oda "worships" Toriyama in a sense.

[jjgp1112]

Meh, most anime fans who hate DBZ are the type of people who think that anything not filled with quasi-emo characters and love stories are bad.

[Snail]

Meh, most anime fans who hate DBZ are the type of people who think that anything not filled with quasi-emo characters and love stories are bad.

Exactly.

[Velasa]

Am I the only one who thinks that if this is a problem, its with the whole industry? I really can't think of many boys shows that are overflowing with main female protagonists. Tekkaman Blade, you have Aki who is basically the love interest (though she does become a Tekkaman between the first and second series) and Blade's sister who dies a few episodes after she is introduced. Ronin Warriors has Mia running around in a Bulma-esque fashion (and no the irony isn't lost on me) and Lady Kayura for a brief non-villain time. Yu Yu Hakusho has Genkai. The other major women are background support, even Botan (who is one of my favorite characters, don't get me wrong). I won't sit here and pluck through a dozen shows, but I will say it isn't even limited to anime. It's a genre thing. American comic books are pretty good at the balance, and shows based on them are ok in this regard usually, but beyond that it is slim pickings.

You're absolutely not the only one. As a lover of shonen anime and American comics, I'm painfully aware of it. When I list off my favorite characters females are almost nonexistant until you hit fanchars, because the cannon ones are so freaking booring. There are exceptions like the amazing Motoko Kusanagi (who's technically asexual but carries herself as the female sex) from Ghost in the Shell and Lafiel of Crest of the Stars who are uncompromising, self-reliant females who get right into the middle of the action and refuse to be pressed aside, but there are rare.

[MagicBox]

The Expositional Battles - Can't stand 'em. That's about all I can really say. They're the reason the show's pacing is so terrible. It's been mentioned before in this thread that most of the anime's negative aspects can be traced back to filler, and this is the most prevalent problem.

The Seemingly Endless Levels of Power - This also annoys me. Super Saiyan was great. Having one Super Saiyan was great. That made the ability legendary. Super Saiyans 2-4? Bad idea. Giving the powerup to every Saiyan in the show? Also bad idea. Toriyama spent so much time building up how amazing it was for a Super Saiyan to appear. He made it so amazingly epic in the Freeza arc, only to give it to every character in the show one story arc later. By the end of the series, the "OMG, you can go Super Saiyan?!" was reduced to "Ha, you can only go Super Saiyan 1!" It ruined the legend, and I think that's one of the biggest letdowns in the series.

The villians getting more and more powerful annoyed me as well. I know Toriyama wasn't really gaving it his all during the Cell and Boo arcs, but he could have at least found a better way to make enemies threatening than "they're stronger than the previous villian. I'm done." That's why I liked Babidi so much. He was extremely weak, but still a threat to the main heroes.

The Animation Recycling - I'm gonna be honest; I've hardly ever noticed this with DragonBall/Z/GT. Sure, I've seen it happen a few times, but not nearly frequently enough to consider it a flaw for the anime. Many of my animation complaints come from not how frequently certain pieces of animation are used, but from the animation quality itself. Off-model characters, bad animation, and continuity errors are much more frequent problems in DBZ than recycled scenes, yet these flaws aren't mentioned at all.

Recycled, Predictable Plot - As far as I'm concerned, at least with the DragonBall series, as long as I'm entertained, I don't really mind if the general motivations of the villians and heroes are always the same. I mean, everybody knows that by the end of the story, the heroes will prevail and we'll all live happily ever after. I'm more concerned with HOW we get to the ending rather than the ending itself. Point A and point B can stay the same each time for all I care, so long as how we get from point A to point B offers a little variety, which DragonBall does.

This is the Show That Never Ends - This is due to filler, which again brings us back to the first point about boring, expositional battles. Again, I hate the anime's pacing, and it's all because Toei needed to stall for time to let the manga get ahead. Can't be helped, and these problems aren't in the manga, so I'm fine with it.

The Dub - Eh, this one comes down to personal preference. I personally don't think the dub was bad enough to be considered one of the most negative aspects of the entire franchise, but these people apparently do, so more power to them. The Freeza Saga is really the only part of the show where the dub was just unbearable, IMO. After FUNi got past that, the dub got more and more tolerable in the Cell Saga, and reached the point of "great" by the Boo Saga. Well, script wise, anyway. You either love the voices or you hate 'em. I grew up with them; I'm fine with them. As for the music, well, we have the option of both scores for the dub now, so that's an outdated flaw.

Typical One Dimensional Villains - Piccolo and Vegeta are obviously the most complex, and Garlic Junior & Freeza were well thought out villians with detailed backstories and understandable motivations, but other than them, there really isn't that much to offer. The villians are extremely one-dimensional, but for an 80's series, they turned out quite well.

Typical Male Anime Protagonist - This is an area where I think IGN is being a little too hard on Toriyama. They fail to take the time period in which the manga/anime was made into consideration. Again, this is an 80's franchise, produced in a time before the public demanded well-crafted protagonists and complex emotions in shows. With that in mind, Goku is a great accomplishment, character wise. I realize he wasn't the first carefree hero the world had seen, but seeing as how he kinda set the standard for shonen protagonists rather than being a copy of a previous character, his simple personality isn't really a flaw.

Besides, a lot of the character quirks that make Goku interesting are kinda lost in translation with the English dub. His accent and speech quirks are gone, along with a lot of his ignorance and bluntness. That makes the character much blander, which is why Goku is often criticised for being such a carbon-copy superhero in the dub. But then again, the article isn't talking strictly about dub problems.

One thing I do disagree with IGN about is Goku's lack of personal demons. While not Toriyama's main focus, Goku does have a few moral dilemmas and personal demons, the most obvious being his gradual acceptance of his Saiyan heritage in the Freeza Saga. Throughout the whole saga, he has to cope with being a member of a murderous race of space pirates, which, while not developed as thoroughly as I'd have hoped, still made Goku a more complex protagonist.

Race and Anime - I know Toriyama's intention wasn't to offend, so I overlook this problem. I don't even really acknowledge this one anyway, so whatever.

Boys Are Better Than Girls - 18, Chi-Chi, Bulma, and Videl were shafted, plain and simple. 18 and Bulma not so much, as they did have pretty decent roles in series before ultimately being thrown to the background, but I still would have loved to see a little more of them and a lot less of Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc.

Obsessive Fanboys - Dub fans, sub fans, widescreen fans, widescreen haters, GT lovers, GT haters, manga purists, power level worshipping idiots, Broli fanboys, Broli haters. Oh man, the fandom is a mess.

I don't get where IGN is going with this one. Every series has fans, and while DragonBall's fanbase can be incredibly annoying, the same can be said for Naruto fans, One Piece fans, etc. Anyway, I really don't see how this complaint belongs in that article. This is supposed to be a list of flaws with the series as a piece of storytelling, not a list of flaws that the series caused in real life. The annoying fanbase is something that neither the creator nor the producers of the anime can control, so I see no reason for IGN to blame the series itself for the fandom it created. It seems kind of unfair, and it's the one flaw that I think doesn't belong on the list.

[Rocketman]

One thing I do disagree with IGN about is Goku's lack of personal demons.

That actually is the source of one of my favorite dub lines - just after Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, when it cuts back to Roshi on Earth who says a few lines, including "Right now, Goku's struggling to hold on to who he is".

I thought that was an excellent thread to follow on that I was sad to see wasn't (though that was before I realized it wasn't in the original). And it actually makes Goku's sparing of Freeza make sense, as Goku forcing himself to not give in to the SMASHKILLRAGE the Super Saiyan powerup awakened in him.

Boys Are Better Than Girls - 18, Chi-Chi, Bulma, and Videl were shafted, plain and simple. 18 and Bulma not so much, as they did have pretty decent roles in series before ultimately being thrown to the background, but I still would have loved to see a little more of them and a lot less of Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc.

I'm going to ask what exactly you expect Videl, a normal human with one week of ki training, to do in the Buu Saga. She'd be useless even at the 21st Budokai.

And I'm gonna throw a curve and say I disagree with you about ChiChi. As much as I would have liked for her to remain a fighter after the 23rd Budokai, I don't think how she turned out shafted her at all. She wasn't a lone wolf man-hating fiercely independent Amazon warrior who got undercut by Goku's dark brown eyes, chiseled pecs and baritone voice (lol), she always expressed a desire to be a wife and mother.

And, bull that Bulma was shafted. She was a main character from the beginning straight up to Freeza's death. Her passing into the background is a side-effect of all the humans doing that, not some anti-woman undercurrent. Plus, she remains more relevant than any non-Saiyan besides Piccolo straight up to the end of GT.

[Onikage725]

I see it often as well. Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub. The One Piece quote you have up there is funny, being as Oda "worships" Toriyama in a sense.

That is true. I see that quite a bit actually. There is some level of hypocrisy with quite a few people's opinion of Dragon Ball. I've heard people who were die hard japanese purists in regards to anime trounce on any dub. Anything from the travesty of "Cardcaptors" and how you can't judge an anime by a shitty re-imagined dub to some random script difference in Cowboy Bebop. And a number of these people have wound up in anti-DBZ bash-fests. And at different times, and on different boards, I've questioned them on this. And 75% of the time, they would reveal that their entire exposure to DBZ was on Toonami.

The only other major gripe I tend to hear is the anti-Freeza Saga thing. It is weird how people take it as an example of the whole series. In nearly 500 episodes of viewing, Goku in the middle prepares a climatic attack and spends about an episode and a half doing so (and the situation is nowhere near as drawn out in the manga) and suddenly everyone is going on about how "every attack in the series takes like 6 episodes to finish."

And my god, I've had Naruto fanboys actually bitch to me about Dragon Ball filler! Where the hell do they get off...? This is usually before one of them tells me that Naruto with 4 tails unleashed would slaughter SSJ4 Goku cuz of that one time he made a crater or something.

And it actually makes Goku's sparing of Freeza make sense, as Goku forcing himself to not give in to the SMASHKILLRAGE the Super Saiyan powerup awakened in him.

Don't be fooled. Goku spared Freeza because he's an idiot. Ya know, I actually always wondered what it was about Cell that pissed Goku off. Piccolo? Spared. Vegeta? Spared. Freeza? Tried to spare repeatedly. Buu? Somehow inadvertently karmically wished for reincarnation (never sure how that worked, but Goku knew he was coming soooo...whatever). Oh and Mr. Buu spared. So Buu basically gets spared twice. Cell, though? Wants his underage child to crush him into the ground. Where was his mercy then?

[El Diabeetus]

I see it often as well. Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub. The One Piece quote you have up there is funny, being as Oda "worships" Toriyama in a sense.

That is true. I see that quite a bit actually. There is some level of hypocrisy with quite a few people's opinion of Dragon Ball. I've heard people who were die hard japanese purists in regards to anime trounce on any dub. Anything from the travesty of "Cardcaptors" and how you can't judge an anime by a shitty re-imagined dub to some random script difference in Cowboy Bebop. And a number of these people have wound up in anti-DBZ bash-fests. And at different times, and on different boards, I've questioned them on this. And 75% of the time, they would reveal that their entire exposure to DBZ was on Toonami.

The only other major gripe I tend to hear is the anti-Freeza Saga thing. It is weird how people take it as an example of the whole series. In nearly 500 episodes of viewing, Goku in the middle prepares a climatic attack and spends about an episode and a half doing so (and the situation is nowhere near as drawn out in the manga) and suddenly everyone is going on about how "every attack in the series takes like 6 episodes to finish."

And my god, I've had Naruto fanboys actually bitch to me about Dragon Ball filler! Where the hell do they get off...? This is usually before one of them tells me that Naruto with 4 tails unleashed would slaughter SSJ4 Goku cuz of that one time he made a crater or something.

Naruto fanboys say DBZ's filler is long, bad, and dragged out. Naruto's filler took about 80-90 episodes to go through. Right now in America Viz decided to dub all the filler so... yeah... I don't think I'm gonna watch Naruto for a while. I've seen most of the filler in Japanese, I don't need to see it again in English even though I like the Dub.

[Rocketman]

This is usually before one of them tells me that Naruto with 4 tails unleashed would slaughter SSJ4 Goku cuz of that one time he made a crater or something.

SSJ4 Goku nearly gets killed by a spinning fan blade, so...

Don't be fooled. Goku spared Freeza because he's an idiot.

I know. I just lie to myself sometimes.

Ya know, I actually always wondered what it was about Cell that pissed Goku off. Piccolo? Spared. Vegeta? Spared. Freeza? Tried to spare repeatedly. Buu? Somehow inadvertently karmically wished for reincarnation (never sure how that worked, but Goku knew he was coming soooo...whatever). Oh and Mr. Buu spared. So Buu basically gets spared twice. Cell, though? Wants his underage child to crush him into the ground. Where was his mercy then?

Well, Piccolo at least has the excuse of the Dragonballs vanishing if he dies. Otherwise, I dunno, but Goku does become a vicious jerkass sometimes.

[Raki]

I see it often as well. Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub. The One Piece quote you have up there is funny, being as Oda "worships" Toriyama in a sense.

And my god, I've had Naruto fanboys actually bitch to me about Dragon Ball filler! Where the hell do they get off...? This is usually before one of them tells me that Naruto with 4 tails unleashed would slaughter SSJ4 Goku cuz of that one time he made a crater or something.

Naruto fanboys say DBZ's filler is long, bad, and dragged out. Naruto's filler took about 80-90 episodes to go through. Right now in America Viz decided to dub all the filler so... yeah... I don't think I'm gonna watch Naruto for a while. I've seen most of the filler in Japanese, I don't need to see it again in English even though I like the Dub.

After almost 2 years of straight filler, I would give up on a series. I don't see how Naruto fans could even bring that up in an argument.

[Mike D]

Ya know, I actually always wondered what it was about Cell that pissed Goku off. Piccolo? Spared. Vegeta? Spared. Freeza? Tried to spare repeatedly. Buu? Somehow inadvertently karmically wished for reincarnation (never sure how that worked, but Goku knew he was coming soooo...whatever). Oh and Mr. Buu spared. So Buu basically gets spared twice. Cell, though? Wants his underage child to crush him into the ground. Where was his mercy then?

Well, Piccolo at least has the excuse of the Dragonballs vanishing if he dies. Otherwise, I dunno, but Goku does become a vicious jerkass sometimes.

This is taking into consideration that Cell was the only villain who got the pleasure of having is face blown the fuck off by Goku.

But it's true that a lot of DB-bashers don't take into consideration the show was crated in the 80's and it was held to a different standard. As for the Naruto/One Piece fans that are DB-bashers, it's always nice to remind them that their favorite anime was inspired by DragonBall Z.

[Onikage725]

And my god, I've had Naruto fanboys actually bitch to me about Dragon Ball filler! Where the hell do they get off...? This is usually before one of them tells me that Naruto with 4 tails unleashed would slaughter SSJ4 Goku cuz of that one time he made a crater or something.

Naruto fanboys say DBZ's filler is long, bad, and dragged out. Naruto's filler took about 80-90 episodes to go through. Right now in America Viz decided to dub all the filler so... yeah... I don't think I'm gonna watch Naruto for a while. I've seen most of the filler in Japanese, I don't need to see it again in English even though I like the Dub.

After almost 2 years of straight filler, I would give up on a series. I don't see how Naruto fans could even bring that up in an argument.

I got into Naruto when they were around the Sasuke Retrieval arc. By the time I had watched up to Sasuke and Naruto's big showdown, they were almost done with filler (but we didn't know that yet). Remember back when ppl thought they would do Kakashi Gaiden? I watched into the second of the big string of filler arcs thinking it wasn't so bad. Then Mizuki turned into a furry. Then they announced Shippuuden. So I just stopped watching and waited for the second series.

[Adamant]

Don't be fooled. Goku spared Freeza because he's an idiot. Ya know, I actually always wondered what it was about Cell that pissed Goku off. Piccolo? Spared. Vegeta? Spared. Freeza? Tried to spare repeatedly. Buu? Somehow inadvertently karmically wished for reincarnation (never sure how that worked, but Goku knew he was coming soooo...whatever). Oh and Mr. Buu spared. So Buu basically gets spared twice. Cell, though? Wants his underage child to crush him into the ground. Where was his mercy then?

I took that to just be a change of heart after Freeza, whom he had shown mercy towards so incredibly many times, took the first opportunity that presented itself to go to Earth and kill all of Goku's friends just to be an asshole. Goku had every intention to kill Freeza then, and did do so in the original timeline before Trunks went back in time. He just realized that nothing good can possibly come from leaving someone as powerful and evil as Cell alive. The same with Buu, really - while Goku tried to work things out with the fat Buu before Satan came along, he split into two forms before much could be done: One that had no evil in it at all, and one that was pretty much evil incarnated. The only reason the evil Buu wasn't killed straight away was because Goku wanted to save his absorbed friends first. As for the incarnation, all the past villains got reincarnated as well (maybe not Cell, since he was artificial and all), Goku just requested to have Buu reincarnated on Earth so he could fight this reincarnation later on.