How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[USSJed]

I have a strange feeling my last post was deleted. I posted sometime yesterday after that whole "Oh USSJed said this on MFG" thing, but now it is gone. So I am going to watch this post, and see if it too dissapears.

[SSj_Rambo]

I have a strange feeling my last post was deleted. I posted sometime yesterday after that whole "Oh USSJed said this on MFG" thing, but now it is gone. So I am going to watch this post, and see if it too dissapears.

What did you have to say?

[USSJed]

I can't remember...

[Neon Z]

What, you think he can suddenly gain ten times as much power while training on Earth, with just Choatzu, then he did training under Kami and King Kai combined? That would be counter-intuitive.

Training with a master under special conditions and then following with their own regiment to improve even more was a standard repeated several times through Dragonball.

Roshi tells Goku that traveling around the world was the best training he could get, Goku does the same after training an undetermined amount of time with Kamisama, the earthlings do the same with Karin and later Kamisama too... There's no reason to assume that Kaio's training was suddenly an unreachable peak that couldn't be improved through a personal regiment, unlike every other training in the series up to that point.

He knew his limits. He's always known his limits. He's also never cared. He's still gone in and done what he could. He did it against Piccolo, he did it against Nappa, he wanted to do it against Freeza, so why wouldn't he do it against the Androids? Especially since he went and did it again against Cell.

That's completely different. That point was brought up when Bulma suggested killing Dr.Gero before he activated the androids. Unlike when he jumped to try delaying Cell, he didn't have to want to fight against them.

Besides, as it was shown in the Cell Saga, Tenshinhan wouldn't have wanted to participate in that battle if he knew that he had no chance of success at all (see his refusal to train in the RoSaT to fight against Perfect Cell).

Gero's a lot weaker than Freeza. Like, three or four times weaker, IMO.

He was still strong enough to make a SSJ Vegeta who had just spent energy with the Big Bang attack need to bluff to make him escape. Remember that an exhausted Goku transformed into a SSJ was enough to finish off Freeza, only having some problems when he used 100%. Even if he wasn't on Freeza's level, he still was powerful.

Plus, he wasn't aiming at Tenshinhan, I believe.

The "aiming" part doesn't matter. He still fired towards the place Tenshinhan was standing, and Tenshinhan needed (and was able) to dodge the blast.

As for the Cell Jr.s Tenshinhan was taken down just as easily as everyone else.

Kuririn is knocked down after one attack (to his back), and a second one breaks his spine. Yamcha is hit once and then in the background of a group shot is shown lying on the ground, while a Cell Jr attacks him. Next focused panel, a Cell Jr. is breaking his arm.

Tenshinhan is hit once in the head. In the group shot, he is still standing trying to punch a Cell Jr, and then in another panel the Cell Jr. kicks him again and he isn't shown until the end of the chapter, when he's thrown at the ground unconscious.

Of course, at the end of the chapter, he was lying on the ground just like everyone else, but there's no way someone with a power lower than one million would be able to put up any sort of resistance there.

Of course, unlike the Dr. Gero example, there's actually evidence that the Cell Jrs. were holding back, however, there's no reason to assume that specific Cell Jr. was holding back any more than the others while fighting Tenshinhan.

I never saw any of the attack varriations get any kind of detailing or explanation. Did they explain why the Spirit Bomb used on Freeza was forming over Goku's head instead of inside him? No. Did they explain how Goku used us feet to do a Kamehameha? No. Hell, they never bothered to go into detail at all with some moves, such as the Big Bang Attack.

But people who believe that Tenshinhan must be under one million seem to operate under the belief that the Shin Kikoho is some super special attack with special proprieties unlike every other (personal) ki based blast in the series, including the Kikoho itself, even though there's no evidence at all of such thing.

The Namek Genki Dama was just a Genki dama powered up by more energy, and, besides the point of formation, didn't show any other special proprieties. I really think some kind of explanation would be necessary in order to make assume that the Shin Kikoho had any special powers not shown by the Kikoho.

Also, the Tri-beam functions on a completely different level than other attacks. Cell had no damage despite the apparent effect the move was having on him.

That isn't exactly unseen. Even back in the 22nd Budokai, the Volleyball fist was able to throw Goku around, but it did no real lasting damage.

Cell was yelling and his entire momentum was negated by the attack. Just because he wasn't bleeding it doesn't mean it magically had no effect in spite of every other visual sign.

Buu didn't know Tenshinhan was there.

The speed of the attack wouldn't change due to Tenshinhan's position.

Buu didn't nesacarily fire a very strong or very fast attack at Dende.

It had to be strong/fast enough to not be easily stopped stopped by Gohan from a bad position. There's no reason he'd randomly hold back. He wasn't just randomly killing two weaklings, he was doing it to stop Gohan from recovering energy yet again.

Piccolo didn't see Freeza's attack but Tenshinhan was able to see Buu's, that's the difference. Tenshinhan's third eye isn't just decoration, after all.

Using the eyes to see during battle was considered bad even in the 23rd Budokai. So, the 3rd eye should offer no real advantage in Z.

For all we know the 'kill-level' of the move was no more than 300,000 (around 10x higher) but the 'impact-force' is the same no matter who it hits.

That's completely negated by the Nappa battle. The basic Kikoho had no special pushing force there.

[Rocketman]

Roshi tells Goku that traveling around the world was the best training he could get, Goku does the same after training an undetermined amount of time with Kamisama, the earthlings do the same with Karin and later Kamisama too... There's no reason to assume that Kaio's training was suddenly an unreachable peak that couldn't be improved through a personal regiment, unlike every other training in the series up to that point.

Improved, sure. Surpassed, no. Tien wasn't even training in heavy gravity (remember, King Kai's planet has x10 gravity).

He was still strong enough to make a SSJ Vegeta who had just spent energy with the Big Bang attack need to bluff to make him escape. Remember that an exhausted Goku transformed into a SSJ was enough to finish off Freeza, only having some problems when he used 100%. Even if he wasn't on Freeza's level, he still was powerful.

Vegeta had been heavily drained by #19 and wasn't able to stay a Super Saiyan.

Also note that Piccolo was able to crush #20, and despite him being a warrior Namek, he's not a Saiyan.

And since I know someone will bring up Krillin's statement - it's invalid. Piccolo was nowhere near a Super Saiyan strength, as the fight with Nos. 18 and 17 shows. Piccolo is knocked out with one hit from #17, while Vegeta fights evenly with #18 until he begins to wear out.

Tenshinhan is hit once in the head. In the group shot, he is still standing trying to punch a Cell Jr, and then in another panel the Cell Jr. kicks him again and he isn't shown until the end of the chapter, when he's thrown at the ground unconscious.

Of course, at the end of the chapter, he was lying on the ground just like everyone else, but there's no way someone with a power lower than one million would be able to put up any sort of resistance there.

But...he didn't put up resistance. He went down just like everyone else. Krillin tried to punch a Cell Jr too before he got combo'd.

But people who believe that Tenshinhan must be under one million seem to operate under the belief that the Shin Kikoho is some super special attack with special proprieties unlike every other (personal) ki based blast in the series, including the Kikoho itself, even though there's no evidence at all of such thing.

Kaioken. Tien says he'll mix King Kai's teachings with his own techniques.

Cell was yelling and his entire momentum was negated by the attack. Just because he wasn't bleeding it doesn't mean it magically had no effect in spite of every other visual sign.

I dunno. Whenever someone wasn't actively blocking/bracing themselves, attacks push them around a lot without doing damage. And Cell wasn't blocking, he was just being dumb and flying right into the blast.

That's completely negated by the Nappa battle. The basic Kikoho had no special pushing force there.

Tien also was near-dead and only had one arm when he shot that blast.

[Kaboom]

Kaioken. Tenshinhan says he'll mix King Kai's teachings with his own techniques.

I always did like this idea. Even if Ten never did master or get to use the Kaio-ken itself, it's plausible to think he might work the concepts behind it into the Kikoho.

[USSJed]

And since I know someone will bring up Krillin's statement - it's invalid. Piccolo was nowhere near a Super Saiyan strength, as the fight with Nos. 18 and 17 shows. Piccolo is knocked out with one hit from #17, while Vegeta fights evenly with #18 until he begins to wear out.

I cannot be bothered checking, but how well did Trunks do against #17?

Improved, sure. Surpassed, no. Tenshinhan wasn't even training in heavy gravity (remember, King Kai's planet has x10 gravity).

Is there a quote somewhere, that Gravity training is the only way to increase your power once you hit the 10,000's?

Kaioken. Tenshinhan says he'll mix King Kai's teachings with his own techniques.

I am sure King Kai said that Goku was the only one he could(or would?) teach the Kaoken to.

Whenever someone wasn't actively blocking/bracing themselves

I don't see how that could have any affect. Just think, if I was bracing myself on a rocket pack, I would still get knocked about by the wind.

Tenshinhan also was near-dead and only had one arm when he shot that blast.

Then it should have done ZERO damage and knocked Nappa, instead it did SOME damage and didn't knock Nappa.

[Storm]

I cannot be bothered checking, but how well did Trunks do against #17?

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually interact with 17, but he swung his sword at 18, it cracked, and he got grabbed and thrown into Vegeta. Painful, really.

Unless the manga is sufficiently different.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's exactly how it was in the manga. Android #17 hit Trunks when he wasn't even expecting it, and Piccolo took two direct hits from #17 before he was finished. That doesn't mean he isn't around SSJ power, that just means the Androids are that much stronger.

[mrkaizoku]

Also note that Piccolo was able to crush #20, and despite him being a warrior Namek, he's not a Saiyan.

And since I know someone will bring up Krillin's statement - it's invalid. Piccolo was nowhere near a Super Saiyan strength, as the fight with Nos. 18 and 17 shows. Piccolo is knocked out with one hit from #17, while Vegeta fights evenly with #18 until he begins to wear out.

They really didn't fight evenly. As soon as they both decided to take it seriously Vegeta gets his ass kicked. If anything he was able to tread water for awhile.

Who's to say that Piccolo isn't as strong as a Super Saiyan? Sure he is taken out by #17 in two hits, but Vegeta wouldn't have done any better. Number 18 was playing with Vegeta and testing his limits. Number 17 wasn't playing around. Besides, Super Saiyan Trunks was taken out with two hits as well. Hell, Super Saiyan Trunks took less of a blow than Piccolo and was rendered unconscious. From that fight it looks like Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Trunks. He might even be a little stronger.

[Rocketman]

I cannot be bothered checking, but how well did Trunks do against #17?

Also very badly. Vegeta with his arm shattered did better than any of the peanut gallery.

Improved, sure. Surpassed, no. Tenshinhan wasn't even training in heavy gravity (remember, King Kai's planet has x10 gravity).

Is there a quote somewhere, that Gravity training is the only way to increase your power once you hit the 10,000's?

I am sure King Kai said that Goku was the only one he could(or would?) teach the Kaoken to.

He says that when Goku arrives pre-Saiyan fight. He says nothing like that after the humans and Piccolo arrive.

I don't see how that could have any affect. Just think, if I was bracing myself on a rocket pack, I would still get knocked about by the wind.

You don't have mystical ki powers.

Then it should have done ZERO damage and knocked Nappa, instead it did SOME damage and didn't knock Nappa.

Maybe the difference is focus. The Kikoho used vs Cell is much wider than vs Nappa, so the force is less focused, delivering a push instead of blunt force trauma.

[USSJed]

You don't have mystical ki powers.

When flying, they push with their Ki, in a similar way to a rocket pack except they can push 360 degree's.

Maybe the difference is focus. The Kikoho used vs Cell is much wider than vs Nappa, so the force is less focused, delivering a push instead of blunt force trauma.

Hmm, maybe... but maybe Tien is just much stronger than most people think and we don't need any of these wild guesses?

[Rocketman]

Hmm, maybe... but maybe Tenshinhan is just much stronger than most people think and we don't need any of these wild guesses?

That requires the wild guess that living in the mountains is more effective than King Kai's training.

[Darknat]

Hmm, maybe... but maybe Tenshinhan is just much stronger than most people think and we don't need any of these wild guesses?

That requires the wild guess that living in the mountains is more effective than King Kai's training.

He did train with Kaio so that means he knows the right way to train.
In the end they all started training on their own cos they already learnt what they have to do from their different masters.

[Xyex]

Hmm, maybe... but maybe Tenshinhan is just much stronger than most people think and we don't need any of these wild guesses?

That requires the wild guess that living in the mountains is more effective than King Kai's training.

He did train with Kaio so that means he knows the right way to train.
In the end they all started training on their own cos they already learnt what they have to do from their different masters.

Doesn't matter. Training for a year on King Kai's is like training for thousands of years on Earth. No training regiment on Earth is going to give nearly the same effects.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Doesn't matter. Training for a year on King Kai's is like training for thousands of years on Earth. No training regiment on Earth is going to give nearly the same effects.

I'd say training in 300 times the Earth's normal gravity would blow Kaiô's training out of the water.

[Rocketman]

I'd say training in 300 times the Earth's normal gravity would blow Kaiô's training out of the water.

That's not training on Earth, though.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

In a gravity machine? That's still on the Earth.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku even said his new training on his way to namek, would make Kaio's training not look like much. That right there, is enough for us to know higher levels of gravity training are more effective. Kaio's quote about 1000 yrs doesn't have to apply to everyone.

[Rocketman]

Goku even said his new training on his way to namek, would make Kaio's training not look like much. That right there, is enough for us to know higher levels of gravity training are more effective. Kaio's quote about 1000 yrs doesn't have to apply to everyone.

But Tien didn't train in gravity. He wasn't even wearing weights the times we see him in the mountains.