Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

This is still insane to me. He was even in his weighted clothes!!

I think that was the most impressive in this scene, suggesting he could probably be ahead of Goku without them.

[LowRyder2005]

On a side note. I watched the Piccolo vs. Goku competition in ep. 47 more carefully with the subs. Other than being funny, dunno, I don't think we can really take what happens in the field seriously. I mean, while Piccolo does seem concerned with beating Goku, it looks like both Goku and Piccolo are going at a very leisurely pace compared to their super-duper maximum speeds. For comparison's purposes, Goku was faster against Krillin during the Kame-Sennin training back in Dragon Ball.

By the way, Goku just says that "this is a good match" - the match they are having at that time - not that "it would be a good match against Piccolo" in broader terms. Visuals could kinda suggest that they're more or less taking it easy (although Goten, if anything, hilariously remarks they're "so fast").

Goku says that it's for training, Piccolo is surprised that such a way to train exists. He even has a little sweat going on. The subs I saw were from the best subbing group, said so by Herms. In the middle of the competition Goku says "Nice going, Piccolo! This will be a close match". I guess you can ignore it because it's a gag like scene, but the power implications are there.

In my subs at that particular point he says "nice going" (I think), "this is a good match". But yeah, the point is that it's pretty much a gag scene to me, not unlike Base Goku getting punched by Krillin in Movie 8. Most certainly they were having a very friendly contest. I mean, we know that if Piccolo and Goku were serious they'd have done the job in seconds.
Other than that, Goku could have been suppressing himself much more than Piccolo, for one, and then it'd have been "a good match". It maybe couldn't have been "a good match" if Goku and Piccolo weren't handicapping themselves.
It's kind of a rehash of Beerus in Monaka's costume vs. Goku when some users were arguing that they were close to full power, when we know that close to full power means they'd be nearly destroying the universe. I could've seen Goku saying the exact same thing to Krillin.

But yeah, my main gripe is still that, just four episodes before, we had Goku arguing that in an extremely weakened state with arguably no Super Saiyan (mainly basing this on the fact that he can't use ki at all) he wouldn't incur in a guaranteed loss against Piccolo. So... he'd have a chance to beat a perfectly healthy Piccolo when he's crippled, for some reason. To me it suggests something like:

Base Goku (fully powered): 100
Base Goku (Ki Disorder): 5
Piccolo: 7.5

With Mr. Buu, current Gohan and Gotenks in-between in a 15-50 range.

[RandomGuy96]

This is still insane to me. He was even in his weighted clothes!!

Weights probably don't matter at this stage of the game. They haven't been confirmed to make a real difference since the Freeza arc. Also as LowRyder pointed out, it's implied that Piccolo most likely wouldn't be able to beat Goku normally, and that even a heavily reduced base Goku still has a chance against him. Piccolo being slightly weaker than base Goku seems the safest position here.

[ZombieVito]

This is still insane to me. He was even in his weighted clothes!!

Weights probably don't matter at this stage of the game. They haven't been confirmed to make a real difference since the Freeza arc. Also as LowRyder pointed out, it's implied that Piccolo most likely wouldn't be able to beat Goku normally, and that even a heavily reduced base Goku still has a chance against him. Piccolo being slightly weaker than base Goku seems the safest position here.

I think they do for two reasons. One is that it doesn't make sense otherwise to still have them weighted. The other one is that in the NEP for episode 34, Goku says something similar to "Piccolo is a different person with his weighted clothes off".

[Blackstripe]

Well, it would be consistent with his power showings in the Tournament if you want to go with the One Base Theory.

[HeroR]

Are we really trying to base power on a lettuce picking contest? Even if we do, it isn't a good measure since neither Goku or Piccolo will be going all out since they're trying not to destroy the field while they're picking.

If we're doing this, Goku got head butted by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta and didn't have his head cave in. He didn't even get bruise.

[Chiki]

That Base Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Gohan. I assume Whis isn't flaring even near full power for what he was doing.

Uh.. now you guys think that Base Vegeta who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS3 Gotenks is weaker than RoF Super Saiyan Gohan? Are you guys serious? Wow.

1. Base Vegeta in the RoF arc killed Tagoma in one attack. Super Saiyan Gohan took multiple hits to defeat him.
2. First Form Frieza > Super Saiyan Gohan but Base Goku = Base Vegeta > Final Form Frieza.
3. BoG arc Gohan got owned by less than 10% Beerus without even being touched. Base Goku who is = Base Vegeta put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus.
4. Base Vegeta is preventing his ki from leaking out. That is the ENTIRE point of Vegeta training with Whis. Super Saiyan Gohan was trying to make his ki as noticeable as possible.
5. Super Saiyan RoF Gohan could not have owned SSJ3 Gotenks like Base Vegeta did.

Base Vegeta and Goku are at least around SSG level of strength. Period.

[LightBing]

Are we really trying to base power on a lettuce picking contest? Even if we do, it isn't a good measure since neither Goku or Piccolo will be going all out since they're trying not to destroy the field while they're picking.

If we're doing this, Goku got head butted by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta and didn't have his head cave in. He didn't even get bruise.

The fact is Goku makes a clear comparison in a competitive setting. Nobody asked him anything, they're were competing and Goku acknowledge Piccolo would give him a close match. It's as close as Beerus 10% line as you can get. Should we assume Goku is lying just to make Piccolo feel better and is holding back? That doesn't seem like Goku at all. He recently called him useless against Frost.

That Base Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Gohan. I assume Whis isn't flaring even near full power for what he was doing.

Uh.. now you guys think that Base Vegeta who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS3 Gotenks is weaker than RoF Super Saiyan Gohan? Are you guys serious? Wow.

1. Base Vegeta in the RoF arc killed Tagoma in one attack. Super Saiyan Gohan took multiple hits to defeat him.
2. First Form Frieza > Super Saiyan Gohan but Base Goku = Base Vegeta > Final Form Frieza.
3. BoG arc Gohan got owned by less than 10% Beerus without even being touched. Base Goku who is = Base Vegeta put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus.
4. Base Vegeta is preventing his ki from leaking out. That is the ENTIRE point of Vegeta training with Whis. Super Saiyan Gohan was trying to make his ki as noticeable as possible.
5. Super Saiyan RoF Gohan could not have owned SSJ3 Gotenks like Base Vegeta did.

Base Vegeta and Goku are at least around SSG level of strength. Period.

It's what the scene implies since it's the same as the one in the RoF arc. It's arguable that flaring up one's ki helps locate one. Or the ki leaking out thing, but wouldn't that also apply to SSJB?
Anyway, I'm not ignoring all that happened before, just pointing the implication of this particular moment.

By the way how strong do you have Chiaotzu, who was able to temporary hold on Base Goku who put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus? Would he be able to take on SSJG Goku?

[Chiki]

It's what the scene implies since it's the same as the one in the RoF arc. It's arguable that flaring up one's ki helps locate one. Or the ki leaking out thing, but wouldn't that also apply to SSJB?
Anyway, I'm not ignoring all that happened before, just pointing the implication of this particular moment.

By the way how strong do you have Chiaotzu, who was able to temporary hold on Base Goku who put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus? Would he be able to take on SSJG Goku?

How strong do you have Yamcha, who paralyzed Beerus with a slap on the back?

How strong do you have Bulma, who defeated SSG Base Goku at the end of BoG with a million slaps?

How strong do you have Sorbet's laser ring, which penetrated SSB Goku's back and chest?

The answer is really simple and should be known to everyone who watches the DB series carefully. You don't need to always be at full power. Beerus let his guard down so that Yamcha's slap on the back hurt him. Goku let his guard down so that Bulma and Sorbet could beat him up. In the DB series, you need ki to be on your guard. If you let your guard down, you're as weak as Mr. Satan.

[LightBing]

It's what the scene implies since it's the same as the one in the RoF arc. It's arguable that flaring up one's ki helps locate one. Or the ki leaking out thing, but wouldn't that also apply to SSJB?
Anyway, I'm not ignoring all that happened before, just pointing the implication of this particular moment.

By the way how strong do you have Chiaotzu, who was able to temporary hold on Base Goku who put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus? Would he be able to take on SSJG Goku?

How strong do you have Yamcha, who paralyzed Beerus with a slap on the back?

How strong do you have Bulma, who defeated SSG Base Goku at the end of BoG with a million slaps?

How strong do you have Sorbet's laser ring, which penetrated SSB Goku's back and chest?

The answer is really simple and should be known to everyone who watches the DB series carefully. You don't need to always be at full power. Beerus let his guard down so that Yamcha's slap on the back hurt him. Goku let his guard down so that Bulma and Sorbet could beat him up. In the DB series, you need ki to be on your guard. If you let your guard down, you're as weak as Mr. Satan.

You can't put the Chiaotzu scene in the same category as those you mentioned. Goku struggles with it, an invisible force that's stopping him from moving. Would Goku use 0,000001% of his power or would he increase it until he broke free? He's grinding his teeth exhorting effort for a few seconds.

[HeroR]

Are we really trying to base power on a lettuce picking contest? Even if we do, it isn't a good measure since neither Goku or Piccolo will be going all out since they're trying not to destroy the field while they're picking.

If we're doing this, Goku got head butted by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta and didn't have his head cave in. He didn't even get bruise.

The fact is Goku makes a clear comparison in a competitive setting. Nobody asked him anything, they're were competing and Goku acknowledge Piccolo would give him a close match. It's as close as Beerus 10% line as you can get. Should we assume Goku is lying just to make Piccolo feel better and is holding back? That doesn't seem like Goku at all. He recently called him useless against Frost.

That Base Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Gohan. I assume Whis isn't flaring even near full power for what he was doing.

Uh.. now you guys think that Base Vegeta who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS3 Gotenks is weaker than RoF Super Saiyan Gohan? Are you guys serious? Wow.

1. Base Vegeta in the RoF arc killed Tagoma in one attack. Super Saiyan Gohan took multiple hits to defeat him.
2. First Form Frieza > Super Saiyan Gohan but Base Goku = Base Vegeta > Final Form Frieza.
3. BoG arc Gohan got owned by less than 10% Beerus without even being touched. Base Goku who is = Base Vegeta put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus.
4. Base Vegeta is preventing his ki from leaking out. That is the ENTIRE point of Vegeta training with Whis. Super Saiyan Gohan was trying to make his ki as noticeable as possible.
5. Super Saiyan RoF Gohan could not have owned SSJ3 Gotenks like Base Vegeta did.

Base Vegeta and Goku are at least around SSG level of strength. Period.

It's what the scene implies since it's the same as the one in the RoF arc. It's arguable that flaring up one's ki helps locate one. Or the ki leaking out thing, but wouldn't that also apply to SSJB?
Anyway, I'm not ignoring all that happened before, just pointing the implication of this particular moment.

By the way how strong do you have Chiaotzu, who was able to temporary hold on Base Goku who put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus? Would he be able to take on SSJG Goku?

No, I am saying that Goku wouldn't go all out and would match himself to Piccolo to make things fair and to keep from destroying his farm. This is like comparing Goku and Vegeta's grass cutting contest.

[namekiansaiyan]

All I have to say is that don't underestimate Piccolo as proven by his fight with Frost.

[Chiki]

It's what the scene implies since it's the same as the one in the RoF arc. It's arguable that flaring up one's ki helps locate one. Or the ki leaking out thing, but wouldn't that also apply to SSJB?
Anyway, I'm not ignoring all that happened before, just pointing the implication of this particular moment.

By the way how strong do you have Chiaotzu, who was able to temporary hold on Base Goku who put up a great fight against a serious costumed Beerus? Would he be able to take on SSJG Goku?

How strong do you have Yamcha, who paralyzed Beerus with a slap on the back?

How strong do you have Bulma, who defeated SSG Base Goku at the end of BoG with a million slaps?

How strong do you have Sorbet's laser ring, which penetrated SSB Goku's back and chest?

The answer is really simple and should be known to everyone who watches the DB series carefully. You don't need to always be at full power. Beerus let his guard down so that Yamcha's slap on the back hurt him. Goku let his guard down so that Bulma and Sorbet could beat him up. In the DB series, you need ki to be on your guard. If you let your guard down, you're as weak as Mr. Satan.

You can't put the Chiaotzu scene in the same category as those you mentioned. Goku struggles with it, an invisible force that's stopping him from moving. Would Goku use 0,000001% of his power or would he increase it until he broke free? He's grinding his teeth exhorting effort for a few seconds.

In just this ep, we saw Trunks struggling while he was suppressing his ki! You can exert effort without ki, you know. So yes, Goku did exert effort but he did not use much ki.

[buutenks]

The u6 team didnt do anything special to warrant them ssg level of power(except hit).

Now why didnt vegeta or goku slap them around in their base form idk. I guess its odd.

[LightBing]

In just this ep, we saw Trunks struggling while he was suppressing his ki! You can exert effort without ki, you know. So yes, Goku did exert effort but he did not use much ki.

I disagree, in the context it doesn't make sense. If one arbitrary decides what efforts which characters are applying, then all powers levels are wrong and right at the same time. Let's just leave it at that.

I can't wait for the next chapter to have something consistent to discuss in here.

[Speedster]

Are we seriously going to consider that farming/harvesting scene as any kind of measure? Kid Goku and Krillin farmed lands with bare hands faster in comparison. And how do we know that Goku's shirt wasn't weighted? Besides part of the training was to also land successfully the cabbages in the baskets behind them while not even looking. That requires speed control of their hands at the time of projection of the cabbage - probably if they were going any faster their smallest hand swing would result to the cabbage go flying. Another thing is that this very show made the time to complete a task irrelevant. The 100 trillion sit-ups in 3 million years in episode 42 (i.e. one per second) apparently implies that for the training to be effective their body parts have to stay at certain positions for a certain amount of time.

Finally I always had the theory that Goku and Vegeta while training in base forms don't use 100% of their power or anything close to that. They instead use a constant percentage of it (say 1%) in order to struggle and push the power level of their (say) "1% base form" higher. That would proportionally increase their "100% base" too - a similar concept for not using their SSJ forms while training or why Freeza (probably) was training in his first form. Also if you think about it, base Vegeta was doing 300x gravity training (chapter 336) in the Androids arc, yet in Super episode 2 he does 150x (not to mention that at the start of the Buu arc he was doing 150x gravity training as SSJ). Goku also goes to Kaio's for a mere 10x.

[Chiki]

In just this ep, we saw Trunks struggling while he was suppressing his ki! You can exert effort without ki, you know. So yes, Goku did exert effort but he did not use much ki.

I disagree, in the context it doesn't make sense. If one arbitrary decides what efforts which characters are applying, then all powers levels are wrong and right at the same time. Let's just leave it at that.

I can't wait for the next chapter to have something consistent to discuss in here.

No, what I mentioned is completely uncontroversial and true. There is no room for disagreement. It is made completely obvious in the episode that Trunks is suppressing his ki so that Black cannot sense him.

[LightBing]

In just this ep, we saw Trunks struggling while he was suppressing his ki! You can exert effort without ki, you know. So yes, Goku did exert effort but he did not use much ki.

I disagree, in the context it doesn't make sense. If one arbitrary decides what efforts which characters are applying, then all powers levels are wrong and right at the same time. Let's just leave it at that.

I can't wait for the next chapter to have something consistent to discuss in here.

No, what I mentioned is completely uncontroversial and true. There is no room for disagreement. It is made completely obvious in the episode that Trunks is suppressing his ki so that Black cannot sense him.

In the context of Chiaotzu holding back Goku. That's what we were discussing.

[Chiki]

In the context of Chiaotzu holding back Goku. That's what we were discussing.

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

[LightBing]

In the context of Chiaotzu holding back Goku. That's what we were discussing.

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

Like I said before, I disagree with your interpretation. Looking at the scene Goku is trying to get out, really trying. It's nonsensical to me he's not using any ki or very little.