Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

In the context of Chiaotzu holding back Goku. That's what we were discussing.

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

Like I said before, I disagree with your interpretation. Looking at the scene Goku is trying to get out, really trying. It's nonsensical to me he's not using any ki or very little.

So you think Chiaotzu can stop SSG Goku? Okay then.

[RandomGuy96]

This is still insane to me. He was even in his weighted clothes!!

Weights probably don't matter at this stage of the game. They haven't been confirmed to make a real difference since the Freeza arc. Also as LowRyder pointed out, it's implied that Piccolo most likely wouldn't be able to beat Goku normally, and that even a heavily reduced base Goku still has a chance against him. Piccolo being slightly weaker than base Goku seems the safest position here.

I think they do for two reasons. One is that it doesn't make sense otherwise to still have them weighted. The other one is that in the NEP for episode 34, Goku says something similar to "Piccolo is a different person with his weighted clothes off".

Huh. So he does. At least according to the sub I watched. So, if it's about the same difference it was in the Saiyan arc, then the Piccolo who was competing against Goku was x1.25 weaker than the regular Piccolo. Who was on par with Ultimate-ish Gohan.

Then again I suppose there's nothing saying Goku's shirt isn't weighted either. With that in mind, plus the fact that Goku never tells him to take off the cloak for a fairer challenge and the fact that Goku with ki control disorder is still implied to be within striking range of Piccolo, imo it's best to consider them about even.

In my subs at that particular point he says "nice going" (I think), "this is a good match". But yeah, the point is that it's pretty much a gag scene to me, not unlike Base Goku getting punched by Krillin in Movie 8. Most certainly they were having a very friendly contest. I mean, we know that if Piccolo and Goku were serious they'd have done the job in seconds.

I don't recall any indication of exactly how much time was passing. IIf we want to break out

Other than that, Goku could have been suppressing himself much more than Piccolo, for one, and then it'd have been "a good match". It maybe couldn't have been "a good match" if Goku and Piccolo weren't handicapping themselves.

That's not really suggested anywhere though, much like it's never suggested that Beerus is wrong about base Goku being weaker than Freeza. That's the big issue I have with disregarding the scene. The intent seems pretty clear, it's never contradicted or revealed to have worked on a false premise, and it's about as close to a real power statement as we'll likely get.

Plus, if you want to get pedantic about how fast they should be moving, then they should be leaving enormous trails of superheated plasma whenever they fly anywhere.

But yeah, my main gripe is still that, just four episodes before, we had Goku arguing that in an extremely weakened state with arguably no Super Saiyan (mainly basing this on the fact that he can't use ki at all) he wouldn't incur in a guaranteed loss against Piccolo. So... he'd have a chance to beat a perfectly healthy Piccolo when he's crippled, for some reason. To me it suggests something like:

Base Goku (fully powered): 100
Base Goku (Ki Disorder): 5
Piccolo: 7.5

With Mr. Buu, current Gohan and Gotenks in-between in a 15-50 range.

Piccolo being that weak doesn't really work with him not instantly being turned into pulp by Frost (who was at least around as strong as the base saiyans, as Vegeta needed to go SS to one-shot him), or sparring evenly with Gohan. On the other hand, him being only slightly weaker than base Goku and Vegeta does work with both.

My two sticking points are that Goku and Vegeta both heavily implied that he was weaker than Mr. Buu, which doesn't really make sense unless Gotenks got so much weaker (because fusion is exponential, maybe?) that Mr. Buu is stronger than him now.

[dbzfan7]

I honestly don't buy any of that crop crap. Pretty sure that'd be inefficient to where they stand now. It'd be less effective than 10x gravity is, especially when Kid Goku and Krillin got used to this ages ago. Just seems like more Super nonsense to me.

[Bullza]

People are actually taking the crop scene to meaning something?

It was just a light-hearted gag scene.

[LightBing]

So you think Chiaotzu can stop SSG Goku? Okay then.

I don't think Chiaotzu should be able to do that to Base Goku, but that's what the anime showed. Probably it's in the same category of Goku multiplying his power by ten and still being weaker than Beerus, besides the info that SSJG should have been stronger than 10% Beerus.

I honestly don't buy any of that crop crap. Pretty sure that'd be inefficient to where they stand now. It'd be less effective than 10x gravity is, especially when Kid Goku and Krillin got used to this ages ago. Just seems like more Super nonsense to me.

People are actually taking the crop scene to meaning something?

It was just a light-hearted gag scene.

I don't understand you guys, neither everybody else that shares this feeling. This isn't like those clearly gag scenes. Goku's line is a power comparison, you know what everybody is always complaining Super doesn't have. It also falls in line with what we saw at the tournament, like RandomGuy96 expanded upon.
Is it because Piccolo can't be stronger than Gotenks? Maybe this is confirmation that he is. Maybe this is another of those contradictions that the show is starting to create at a consistent rate.

This almost seems like when people were trying to say Beerus is a liar, because of the contradictory 10% line. Is Goku lying here? Maybe we should try to make a system to determine what scenes should we actually take seriously.
This one passes my test: it's a light scene were there's a competition which is pointed to be a training method - cue flashback to Kid Goku and Kuririn -, Piccolo recognizes it's an effective method, Goku says the line pretty objectively. It was a chance to further the Goku: farmer by day, kamehameha shooting motherf***** by night, make a Tullece joke and a power comparison.

[Bullza]

I'll be honest but I haven't really read what the argument actually is.

What was the power comparison line?

[Chiki]

I don't think Chiaotzu should be able to do that to Base Goku, but that's what the anime showed. Probably it's in the same category of Goku multiplying his power by ten and still being weaker than Beerus, besides the info that SSJG should have been stronger than 10% Beerus.

The anime also showed Bulma beating the shit out of Base Goku. The anime also showed Trunks tired while running in the last ep. Trunks, who can generate enough energy to make ki blasts thousands of times more powerful than nuclear bombs, gets tired by running.

[Speedster]

OK if you want to count everything, base Goku in ep.47 also tanked unharmed a punch from SSJB Vegeta .... an all-out punch that was intended for Whis!

The anime also showed Trunks tired while running in the last ep. Trunks, who can generate enough energy to make ki blasts thousands of times more powerful than nuclear bombs, gets tired by running.

Well this can be explained by the fact that Trunks lowered his Ki down to human levels in order to hide from Black.

[dbzfan7]

Maybe this is another of those contradictions that the show is starting to create at a consistent rate.

Likely this. Next they're running around with milk which'll suddenly mean something again. Or Piccolo will and Goku will wear 100 kilo weighted clothing which'll somehow be effective. But hey if we take it all serious, then SSJ Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons even after his massive base power up. Literally sounds like a dumb fun scene, rather than a serious fight. Imagine if he said "Oh well I can do it myself in a millisecond so I don't need you." It'd be kinda mean. You can take it seriously if you want, but I'm not. About as serious as I took the 40 tons scene. We've already had Super make comments about people improving such as recently with Goku saying it to Vegeta. Maybe this'll count as improvement for Piccolo, but I don't buy it til I see a fight. If he can fight Goku or Vegeta, without being destroyed like Gotenks was, I'll buy it. He could be above Gotenks already, but I'm waiting for something like that to see if he's close to Goku. Which also makes no damn sense as then Piccolo without training with Whis somehow accomplished that by himself, or with a learning from the basics Gohan.

[LightBing]

Maybe this is another of those contradictions that the show is starting to create at a consistent rate.

Likely this. Next they're running around with milk which'll suddenly mean something again. Or Piccolo will and Goku will wear 100 kilo weighted clothing which'll somehow be effective. But hey if we take it all serious, then SSJ Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons even after his massive base power up. Literally sounds like a dumb fun scene, rather than a serious fight. Imagine if he said "Oh well I can do it myself in a millisecond so I don't need you." It'd be kinda mean. You can take it seriously if you want, but I'm not. About as serious as I took the 40 tons scene. We've already had Super make comments about people improving such as recently with Goku saying it to Vegeta. Maybe this'll count as improvement for Piccolo, but I don't buy it til I see a fight. If he can fight Goku or Vegeta, without being destroyed like Gotenks was, I'll buy it. He could be above Gotenks already, but I'm waiting for something like that to see if he's close to Goku. Which also makes no damn sense as then Piccolo without training with Whis somehow accomplished that by himself, or with a learning from the basics Gohan.

I also tackle these type scenes like you do, what's different about this scene is that they developed it in such a way that makes it a credible source. This is not a simple harvest, they try very hard to make that point.
First, by giving us the flashback, sure it's a method from very long ago but it wasn't ever called useless and in a series like these, we should have an open mind and not discredit this type of thing; carrying heavy turtle shells and gravity training is essentially the same concept. The characters just moved on and did other stuff.
Then they reaffirm it by having Piccolo telling us how his different muscles are working. Goku then delivers the line after all of this. They validated the whole harvest as an actual power contest, which is why Goku's line should be taken seriously in my perspective.

As a curiosity, from my comprehension of the manga. The power gap there, between Piccolo to Goku, is in line to what it's suggested in this episode.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't recall any indication of exactly how much time was passing.

I'm not talking about time, strictly speaking. Just more or less addressing the issue that they're both kind of fooling around anyway. They could move at unfathomably higher speeds back when they were hundreds, thousands of times weaker. If Goku and Piccolo were giving us any indication to believe they were having a serious speed contest we'd have some info; since they are not being serious, we can't really quantify how their speeds compare. Goku just says that they're having a good match/ they'll have a good match with the current conditions, which may be Goku going at 1% of his speed and Piccolo going at 80% or something.

(More likely, both going at a 0.00000000000000x % of their max).

Piccolo being that weak doesn't really work with him not instantly being turned into pulp by Frost (who was at least around as strong as the base saiyans, as Vegeta needed to go SS to one-shot him), or sparring evenly with Gohan. On the other hand, him being only slightly weaker than base Goku and Vegeta does work with both.

My two sticking points are that Goku and Vegeta both heavily implied that he was weaker than Mr. Buu, which doesn't really make sense unless Gotenks got so much weaker (because fusion is exponential, maybe?) that Mr. Buu is stronger than him now.

I'd agree with you if we had seen a fully powered Frost vs. a fully powered Piccolo. However, the fatigue of Frost - as maybe ultimately unconvincing as it was to some - was most likely supposed to be the plot device to balance the fight out (there'd be stuff like Frost wanting to save his energy as well, but the most blatant plot point is the fact that he's tired and a fully rested Piccolo can barely keep up with him). There'd be Vegeta turning Super Saiyan to finish off Frost, but I see it like Vegeta wanting to go for an overkill and punch Frost as hard as he could without killing him. Again, while the writing is kind of subpar, there was never a moment to me during the tournament that really indicated Piccolo felt comfortable taking on anyone of the opposing fighters. An argument could be made about First Form Frost or Third Form Frost vs. Piccolo among others, but Goku was reportedly warming up against both forms of Frost so his performance is, again, really difficult to judge.

Regarding Gotenks, they apparently didn't want to bring him because of the Fusion time limit and a Fusion itself fighting being problematic for the tournament; nothing about his physical prowess/ strenght being inferior to either Buu or Piccolo was noted. On the contrary, Vegeta implies that it's Goten's and Trunks' strenght while they are unfused being the problem ("become strong enough on your own if you want to participate next time")... so this would imply that Gotenks is in fact "strong enough" on his own.

Actually, this may pique your interest since it could go both ways in proving that either Piccolo got stronger (stronger than Goten/ Trunks alone but weaker than Buu would be the most logical conclusion) or that Goten and Trunks got weaker if you have the kids stronger than Piccolo in the Buu Saga. Or a combination of both.

You could kinda disregard the info in ep. 43 if you think that the ki disease is not affecting Goku's physically, by the way. The only thing that's said about the disease is that Goku can't control his ki, can't fly, can't teleport and that he will hurt his body (like when you overwork a muscle, the condition is likened to myalgia) if he uses ki at all. Other than lacking appetite, we still see him doing peak-human stuff, i.e. carrying very heavy bags, and he doesn't really tell anyone how he feels weaker, strictly speaking.
My opinion is still that they wanted to portray him as kind of powerless and that Piccolo is at most barely stronger than his ROF self, but you may go as far as saying that it's actually confirming Base Goku < Piccolo if you think that he is just "a regular Base Goku who probably thinks he can't go Super Saiyan and who can't use fly or ki attacks" (it'd be kind of silly for him to think about Super Saiyan if he's just been told he can't control ki and if that if he raises his ki he could be unable to get stronger, but I'll leave this open to everyone's interpretation; Goku is in fact a pretty reckless character per se) and not "a Base Goku with a fraction of his Base power who can't fly or use ki attacks".

[dbzfan7]

Maybe this is another of those contradictions that the show is starting to create at a consistent rate.

Likely this. Next they're running around with milk which'll suddenly mean something again. Or Piccolo will and Goku will wear 100 kilo weighted clothing which'll somehow be effective. But hey if we take it all serious, then SSJ Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons even after his massive base power up. Literally sounds like a dumb fun scene, rather than a serious fight. Imagine if he said "Oh well I can do it myself in a millisecond so I don't need you." It'd be kinda mean. You can take it seriously if you want, but I'm not. About as serious as I took the 40 tons scene. We've already had Super make comments about people improving such as recently with Goku saying it to Vegeta. Maybe this'll count as improvement for Piccolo, but I don't buy it til I see a fight. If he can fight Goku or Vegeta, without being destroyed like Gotenks was, I'll buy it. He could be above Gotenks already, but I'm waiting for something like that to see if he's close to Goku. Which also makes no damn sense as then Piccolo without training with Whis somehow accomplished that by himself, or with a learning from the basics Gohan.

I also tackle these type scenes like you do, what's different about this scene is that they developed it in such a way that makes it a credible source. This is not a simple harvest, they try very hard to make that point.
First, by giving us the flashback, sure it's a method from very long ago but it wasn't ever called useless and in a series like these, we should have an open mind and not discredit this type of thing; carrying heavy turtle shells and gravity training is essentially the same concept. The characters just moved on and did other stuff.
Then they reaffirm it by having Piccolo telling us how his different muscles are working. Goku then delivers the line after all of this. They validated the whole harvest as an actual power contest, which is why Goku's line should be taken seriously in my perspective.

As a curiosity, from my comprehension of the manga. The power gap there, between Piccolo to Goku, is in line to what it's suggested in this episode.

I'm waiting for an actual fight. Just sounds like a nice call back. It's supposed to be nostalgic. If they wrote it as meaning nothing, then we wouldn't care about the call back. The implications of such a thing would make no sense. Piccolo somehow in a ridiculously short time frame, without Whis at the very least, somehow gets that powerful? I'm not buying that. That's even more ludicrous than Vegeta and Freeza. That's inconceivable. Which is why I'll believe it depending on his next fighting performance. That to me will settle it. I can see the implications, but I'll wait til the results to make a judgement.

[Chiki]

OK if you want to count everything, base Goku in ep.47 also tanked unharmed a punch from SSJB Vegeta .... an all-out punch that was intended for Whis!

The anime also showed Trunks tired while running in the last ep. Trunks, who can generate enough energy to make ki blasts thousands of times more powerful than nuclear bombs, gets tired by running.

Well this can be explained by the fact that Trunks lowered his Ki down to human levels in order to hide from Black.

I'm arguing that Goku was doing that as well when Chiaotzu used telekinesis on him. Bulma beat the shit out of Base Goku at the end of BoG. How? Goku lowered his ki down to human levels. It's probably the most comfortable state for them to be in.

[LowRyder2005]

Honestly I think the deal with Piccolo is always the same: are you willing to compromise with bad writing or not?
I don't believe anyone of the "same ol' Piccolo" side would have qualms about Piccolo getting substantially stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 or even stronger than a Super Saiyan God with the proper plot-device. Like, training with Whis, getting a power-up through another old ritual, the usual deus ex machina and so on.

The timeskip from the Cell Games to the Great Saiyaman Arc in which he trains weights a lot and is basically a huge indication that Piccolo (unable to reach, say, Super Perfect Cell) had either hit a wall or needed an awful lot of time training to become seriously stronger. Of course, we're talking about stuff from twenty years ago made by someone who reportedly forgets everything as he writes... but there's still the crucial point that we have not seen Piccolo pulling out a undisputedly better performance than Gotenks when they're fighting under the same conditions. Plus, the only fight that Piccolo has been in is a cluster of plot-added conditions to make him survive the whole ordeal.

I mean, you can have all form of Frost vastly inferior to a "serious/ fully-powered" Base Goku, and a 100% Piccolo (who is going all-out) slightly inferior to a tired Frost who is still trying to save energy. ... And it works.

(Actually, it makes a lot more sense, to me, than the Super Saiyan > Final > Piccolo > Assault > Base Saiyan).

I'm arguing that Goku was doing that when Chiaotzu used telekinesis on him. Bulma beat the shit out of Base Goku at the end of BoG. How? Goku lowered his ki down to human levels. It's probably the most comfortable state for them to be in.

Well, this was more or less an established point back in Z already. We see Goku forgetting to power down in Base and slapping Chichi through a wall.

[ZombieVito]

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

Like I said before, I disagree with your interpretation. Looking at the scene Goku is trying to get out, really trying. It's nonsensical to me he's not using any ki or very little.

So you think Chiaotzu can stop SSG Goku? Okay then.

I find it quite odd that people have a problem with this. It's a bit ridiculous? Maybe but so was Tenshinhan holding off Cell and no one complains about that.

Is it really that hard to believe for Chiaotzu to have improved his psychic powers the same way Tenshinhan improved his Kikoho?

[Chiki]

Is it really that hard to believe for Chiaotzu to have improved his psychic powers the same way Tenshinhan improved his Kikoho?

Yes, lol. The gap between Chiaotzu and SSG Goku is MUCH MUCH greater than the gap between Tenshinhan and Semi-Perfect Cell. Tbh I doubt Chiaotzu could even hold Nappa for long.

Also Kikoho is much stronger than your average ki attack like Kamehameha since it actually drains one's life force as well, it doesn't just use ki. That explains why it was able to hold Cell back.

Well, this was more or less an established point back in Z already. We see Goku forgetting to power down in Base and slapping Chichi through a wall.

It seems like some people in this thread don't think it's established and I have to explain it to them several times.

[dragon boss z]

In the context of Chiaotzu holding back Goku. That's what we were discussing.

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

Like I said before, I disagree with your interpretation. Looking at the scene Goku is trying to get out, really trying. It's nonsensical to me he's not using any ki or very little.

It was a gag scene...

[apex_pretador]

Goku was holding back his ki just like he did when Bulma attacked him and hurt him at the end of BoG and like when Beerus held back his ki when Yamcha hurt him with a slap on the back. And as episode 47 just showed, you can be tired while doing relatively easy tasks if you suppress your ki.

Like I said before, I disagree with your interpretation. Looking at the scene Goku is trying to get out, really trying. It's nonsensical to me he's not using any ki or very little.

So you think Chiaotzu can stop SSG Goku? Okay then.

Base goku =/= SSG Goku. The transformations are not meaningless.

[RandomGuy96]

I mean, you can have all form of Frost vastly inferior to a "serious/ fully-powered" Base Goku, and a 100% Piccolo (who is going all-out) slightly inferior to a tired Frost who is still trying to save energy. ... And it works.

Except it really doesn't? There was no real indication that base Goku was using 1% or whatever of his power against Assault Frost, while we actually got somewhat explicit confirmation that Goku and Vegeta were screwing around with Botamo and Cabba. Furthermore even the tired final form Frost was enough to force Vegeta to go SS to win. You can say Vegeta just wanted to show off... but that doesn't really make sense. Why go SS if his base was enough? That would make him look stronger. Or if he's just trying to display his power, why not go full SSB? The fact that he reverts, fights Cabba in base, and then goes SS again rather than just staying in SS pretty much clinches it for me. At the very least "tires Frost" is around base Vegeta.

I just don't think "they were massively holding back the whole time and no one mentioned it" really works here.

[dragon boss z]

I mean, you can have all form of Frost vastly inferior to a "serious/ fully-powered" Base Goku, and a 100% Piccolo (who is going all-out) slightly inferior to a tired Frost who is still trying to save energy. ... And it works.

Except it really doesn't? There was no real indication that base Goku was using 1% or whatever of his power against Assault Frost, while we actually got somewhat explicit confirmation that Goku and Vegeta were screwing around with Botamo and Cabba. Furthermore even the tired final form Frost was enough to force Vegeta to go SS to win. You can say Vegeta just wanted to show off... but that doesn't really make sense. Why go SS if his base was enough? That would make him look stronger. Or if he's just trying to display his power, why not go full SSB? The fact that he reverts, fights Cabba in base, and then goes SS again rather than just staying in SS pretty much clinches it for me. At the very least "tires Frost" is around base Vegeta.

I just don't think "they were massively holding back the whole time and no one mentioned it" really works here.

I like the manga version of super better when it comes to power scaling. It is never mentioned Goku's base absorbed God ki and that fixes all of the inconsistencies in the universe 6 arc.