The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dbzfan7]

Just because the scene is silly doesn't mean it didn't happen within the context of the story. Seriously by that logic the entirety of Dragon Ball didn't happen.

No it happened. But it explains how ridiculous the scene is, and that practically anyone in a similar situation could theoretically do the same thing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Just because the scene is silly doesn't mean it didn't happen within the context of the story. Seriously by that logic the entirety of Dragon Ball didn't happen.

No it happened. But it explains how ridiculous the scene is, and that practically anyone in a similar situation could theoretically do the same thing.

Except Gohan's latent energy was all brought into his ultimate form. He has no rage power to draw on.

[Bussani]

Is "silly scene" definitely referring to the scene where Vegeta momentarily surpasses Goku? Something about the structure of the sentence when read that way feels weird to me. Maybe I need to read the whole interview to get the context.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I already have SSJ2 Vegeta above the both of them in the movie so I would say SSJ3 Vegeta is stronger too .

Well... why?

He actually hit Birusu.... Gohan didn't.

The question is: why didn't Gohan hit Beers? Because Beers didn't let him do it. Beers attacked Gohan immediately, while Beers was just standing when Vegeta attacked. If Vegeta had damaged Beers even to the slightest, or if Beers was actually shown surprised by Vegeta, then I would agree. But what Beers did with Vegeta was just stand & take all his hits, and then, he gets disappointed. Not to mention that the difference between Beers & the Z-Senshi (minus Super Saiyan God Goku) is so huge, that everyone did the same: they couldn't cause even the slightest damage to Beers & got effortlessly beaten.

I treat the Vegeta scene as a gag.

You mean you laughed with that scene? Because I watched the (leaked) scene, and it wasn't funny at all. It wasn't even intended to be funny at all.

[dbzfan7]

Just because the scene is silly doesn't mean it didn't happen within the context of the story. Seriously by that logic the entirety of Dragon Ball didn't happen.

No it happened. But it explains how ridiculous the scene is, and that practically anyone in a similar situation could theoretically do the same thing.

Except Gohan's latent energy was all brought into his ultimate form. He has no rage power to draw on.

Saiyans have practically limitless potential. More can develop. Some can reach it easier than others, while some take years. Besides, half Saiyans are stated to have more potential then full Saiyans. If Gohan hit every last drop of potential and couldn't get stronger, then the pure saiyans couldn't either since they have far less potential. Gohan has been stated to have far more potential then Goku. If he couldn't reach anymore power after the power up, then technically someone with less potential can't surpass him without special means.

You mean you laughed with that scene? Because I watched the (leaked) scene, and it wasn't funny at all. It wasn't even intended to be funny at all.

The script writer himself calls it silly and brief. And I did laugh at the scene for how stupid it was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The script writer himself calls it silly and brief. And I did laugh at the scene for how stupid it was.

When does the scriptwriter calls it silly & brief? And just because you find it stupid, doesn't mean it was a gag.

[dbzfan7]

The script writer himself calls it silly and brief. And I did laugh at the scene for how stupid it was.

When does the scriptwriter calls it silly & brief? And just because you find it stupid, doesn't mean it was a gag.

Yūsuke Watanabe

But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

He calls it Silly and brief. And yes it is totally stupid as it comes from nowhere. Vegeta has never demonstrated anything remotely close to powering up over 4x stronger randomly. It's like they forgot Gohan was the one who got rage boosts and not Vegeta as Gohan had potential to dive into. Vegeta is not a half Saiyan last time I checked.

[Bussani]

Yūsuke Watanabe

But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

So, can someone link to that interview? I can't seem to find it on the site right now.

[dbzfan7]

Yūsuke Watanabe

But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

So, can someone link to that interview? I can't seem to find it on the site right now.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... e-of-gods/

[RandomGuy96]

Ultimate Gohan vs Buuku, the hypothetical Buu who absorbed SS3 Goku, Piccolo, and the kids.

[dbzfan7]

Ultimate Gohan vs Buuku, the hypothetical Buu who absorbed SS3 Goku, Piccolo, and the kids.

Depends on how you treat absorption. If you treat them as additions, then Gohan wins. If you treat them as some form of multiplication. Then it could be close.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

To me it looks like Watanabe wasn't talking about Vegeta's power up scene, but rather the dancing one. The interviewer even talks about that.


The scene where Vegeta casts aside his pride for everyone’s sake was shocking. To think he’d go that far. (laughs)

I thought people might even get angry at me, but in the video, it was even sillier than I’d imagined. (laughs) But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

[dbzfan7]

To me it looks like Watanabe wasn't talking about Vegeta's power up scene, but rather the dancing one. The interviewer even talks about that.


The scene where Vegeta casts aside his pride for everyone’s sake was shocking. To think he’d go that far. (laughs)

I thought people might even get angry at me, but in the video, it was even sillier than I’d imagined. (laughs) But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.

I can see how it could work how you say it. Though I don't ignore how he mentions briefly, and how the scene makes as much sense as Muten Roshi suddenly being interested in men, or Krillin secretly being a Saiyan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

(Shit, this totally destroys my theory about Vegeta being that strong due to his training rather than his rage... )

The silly thing in it isn't the scene (the whole scene was dead serious, with serious music playing on the background), the silly thing is that Vegeta gets mad because he cares about Bulma. And Vegeta's rage increase doesn't have to be over 4 times. SS2 Vegeta could have surpassed SS2 Goku, with his rage increase making him stronger than SS3 Goku. What I get from Watanabe's comment is that Vegeta got stronger because he got angry for someone he loves, while every other time before, he had gotten angry because of his pride. This shows that Vegeta theory about why Goku was always ahead of him true (from his "Goku is #1" speech):

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me now [since he now had to protect Bulma & Trunks]. It was to have my own way, it was for my enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought...

Vegeta had finally acquired that "mysterious power", by fighting to protect his wife, instead of fighting for himself.

[dbzfan7]

(Shit, this totally destroys my theory about Vegeta being that strong due to his training rather than his rage... )

The silly thing in it isn't the scene (the whole scene was dead serious, with serious music playing on the background), the silly thing is that Vegeta gets mad because he cares about Bulma. And Vegeta's rage increase doesn't have to be over 4 times. SS2 Vegeta could have surpassed SS2 Goku, with his rage increase making him stronger than SS3 Goku. What I get from Watanabe's comment is that Vegeta got stronger because he got angry for someone he loves, while every other time before, he had gotten angry because of his pride. This shows that Vegeta theory about why Goku was always ahead of him true (from his "Goku is #1" speech

Could be.

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me now [since he now had to protect Bulma & Trunks]. It was to have my own way, it was for my enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought...

Vegeta had finally acquired that "mysterious power", by fighting to protect his wife, instead of fighting for himself.

Until stated that is a theory and not true. There is no mysterious power, Goku was stronger because he simply had better training methods then Vegeta and had a natural talent. The whole Mysterious power bit was Vegeta's excuse to rationalize being inferior to Goku as he couldn't understand. Vegeta usually just tortures his body, Goku uses efficient training and gives his body rest and what it needs to truly develop. Its why he didn't bother using the ROSAT twice. He said that torturing your body isn't training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I know that Goku is stronger because of his natural talent, but Vegeta theorized that this was also because he had someone to protect & fight for, while his selfish desire to fight was holding him back. Now that he no longer has the will to fight for himself, but instead fights for others, he can finally use his true power. That's what the movie shows us IMO.

[dbzfan7]

I know that Goku is stronger because of his natural talent, but Vegeta theorized that this was also because he had someone to protect & fight for, while his selfish desire to fight was holding him back. Now that he no longer has the will to fight for himself, but instead fights for others, he can finally use his true power. That's what the movie shows us IMO.

I don't think Vegeta had any latent power. I don't believe it has anything to do with Goku protecting someone. If that were true then why would he put the people he cares about at risk so he can fight. He did that with the Androids, Cell, Vegeta, and Boo. I have only seen Goku push his body to the point of breaking, not magically get a lot stronger (excluding Zenkai's which are now obsolete or minimal)

Scriptwriter is also a Vegeta fan so I could label it as P.I.S. that goes with Spider-man beating firelord and deathstroke beating Flash. Seriously just fucking give Vegeta SSJ3 and stop teasing the fans, it makes more sense then this bullshit brief power up that makes me wonder If Vegeta is secretly half saiyan.

[MDSTSSJ]

DBZGTKOSDH where would you place a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegeta in comparison to Gohan or Gotenks?

I think he would be weaker, since I have SS Gotenks a little weaker than SS3 Goku, meaning that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be around 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku (I have U. Gohan less than 2 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, since I believe that Boo's absorption ability works as an addition). I have SS2 Vegeta less than 2 times stronger than Goku, so SS3 Vegeta would be 4 times stronger, but around 2 times weaker than SS3 Gotenks.

Talking about BOG´s time, if Vegeta SSJ2 with that rage boost was less than 2 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, it had to be at least, transformed into SSJ3. I think Bill's just test the reaction of Vegeta with the slap on Bulma´s. Will see.

Why Vegeta only panics when Kaio tells him how Beers beat SSj3 Goku in two blows? For me, after 5 years, Kakarotto increased his powers, is stronger than before ( Boo Arc ) and Vegeta becomes stonger than before too but not stronger than SSJ3 Kakarotto. SSJ3 Kakarotto in BOG´s time is strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and 2 times weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

[MDSTSSJ]

Until stated that is a theory and not true. There is no mysterious power, Goku was stronger because he simply had better training methods then Vegeta and had a natural talent. The whole Mysterious power bit was Vegeta's excuse to rationalize being inferior to Goku as he couldn't understand. Vegeta usually just tortures his body, Goku uses efficient training and gives his body rest and what it needs to truly develop. Its why he didn't bother using the ROSAT twice. He said that torturing your body isn't training.

I agree but, I still think about Kakarotto and Vegeta immeasurable latent power ( specially Goku ).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think Vegeta had any latent power. I don't believe it has anything to do with Goku protecting someone. If that were true then why would he put the people he cares about at risk so he can fight. He did that with the Androids, Cell, Vegeta, and Boo. I have only seen Goku push his body to the point of breaking, not magically get a lot stronger (excluding Zenkai's which are now obsolete or minimal)

It seems that Goku has this "power of friendship" passively (since he is pure-hearted), while Vegeta has this momentarily when he gets angry about his beloved ones. Now if you disagree with that, then of course it won't make any sense. It's theorized in the manga by Vegeta (who believed that this could be the reason Goku is always ahead of him), and then Vegeta is proved correct in BoG.

Talking about BOG´s time, if Vegeta SSJ2 with that rage boost was less than 2 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, it had to be at least, transformed into SSJ3. I think Bill's just test the reaction of Vegeta with the slap on Bulma´s. Will see.

Why Vegeta only panics when Kaio tells him how Beers beat SSj3 Goku in two blows? For me, after 5 years, Kakarotto increased his powers, is stronger than before ( Boo Arc ) and Vegeta becomes stonger than before too but not stronger than SSJ3 Kakarotto. SSJ3 Kakarotto in BOG´s time is strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and 2 times weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

Changed my mind about Vegeta. For me, it's U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta (enraged) > SS3 Goku > SS Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Goku. I think that the gap between Goku and Gotenks & Gohan is too big for SS3 Goku to reach.