"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[FTW395]

Yeah I finally understand the chapter, he went from Base -> SSj -> SSG -> SSB
At first I thought he went from SSB -> SSG which didn't make sense to me.

[Chiki]

Lol, and Toriyama said it would be cool if Toyotaro contributed to the story...

Welp, after the poor writing in Dragonball AF and SSG Goku > SSB Vegeta and no Kaioken, it should be clear that Toyotaro has no talent for writing.

[LightBing]

Super manga does say this: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!" (Source Kanzenshuu)

So either Goku simply got stronger than Vegeta and therefore his God is now better than Vegeta's Blue. Or this is a partially contradiction, that can easily be corrected. I mean, Blue might simply have surpassed the God we saw before, this SSJG after three years of training progressed past even the previous Blue level.

Its not really anymore of a contradiction than to say Super Saiyan 2 is a form that surpasses Super Saiyan 1!

Blue can still give you a bigger boost than Red, but if you're base form is inferior to another fighters who has access to Blue, he's naturally going to be stronger due to his stronger base level. That's why I don't think this really contradicts anything, especially since Whis, as I stated before, blatantly tells Vegeta he's a step behind Goku and trains less efficiently than him.

Yeah I agree with you, that's why I used the word partially before contradiction. Remember SSJ Mirai Trunks not dominating Base Mirai Gohan, same logic.

[sintzu]

If you're base form is inferior to another fighters who has access to Blue, he's naturally going to be stronger due to his stronger base level. That's why I don't think this really contradicts anything, especially since Whis, as I stated before, blatantly tells Vegeta he's a step behind Goku and trains less efficiently than him.

A step behind, not light years behind which is what the manga is implying.

[Sodhi]

Welp, after the poor writing in Dragonball AF and SSG Goku > SSB Vegeta and no Kaioken, it should be clear that Toyotaro has no talent for writing.

Or maybe you dont like what he did.

[Khin]

For some reason this brought me back to that old rumor which Toriyama supposedly said that "red is stronger than blue." lol

It wasn't a rumor. Toriyama indeed said that he chose Red for Super Saiyan God because it looks "stronger" than Blue.

[Xeztin]

Super manga does say this: "The narrator explains that a little while before these events, Freeza had returned to terrorize Earth. However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, the two Saiyans received training under Whis and managed to evolve into “Super Saiyan Blue”, a form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. With this, they were able to defeat Freeza!" (Source Kanzenshuu)

I'm simply looking at that explanation as directly referring to Goku over Vegeta or that it is a surpassing form to SSG, but only if you have SSG in the first place. As far as Vegeta beating down Golden Freeza, we will have to discredit that from the manga as it was never fully told in the manga. The anime wants Goku and Vegeta to be on par while the manga wants a distinct difference.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

There's a lot more coming. The power scale seems to be completely different for the manga and all that. I'm getting to it, but I'm going to wait until I have all the info finished.

[ryou766]

For some reason this brought me back to that old rumor which Toriyama supposedly said that "red is stronger than blue." lol

It wasn't a rumor. Toriyama indeed said that he chose Red for Super Saiyan God because it looks "stronger" than Blue.

I meant in the sense that people were assuming that Toriyama bluntly meant that SSJG WAS stronger than SSJB.

[SaiyanGirl]

Vegeta is probably the 2nd main character because the fans like him that much.

I wouldn't be surprised if Goku gets a new rival at some point.

[ekrolo2]

If you're base form is inferior to another fighters who has access to Blue, he's naturally going to be stronger due to his stronger base level. That's why I don't think this really contradicts anything, especially since Whis, as I stated before, blatantly tells Vegeta he's a step behind Goku and trains less efficiently than him.

A step behind, not light years behind which is what the manga is implying.

I haven't seen a proper translation yet but I haven't seen anything say he's "light years" behind Goku.

If Vegeta's say a 7 with Blue, Goku's a 7.2 in Red then an 8.5 in Blue, that doesn't seem like a vast chasm of difference. Maybe a step and a half ahead of him but not light years. Unless you think the numbers are tiers and don't operate under 2+2=4 logic.

[Xeztin]

There's a lot more coming. The power scale seems to be completely different for the manga and all that. I'm getting to it, but I'm going to wait until I have all the info finished.

Thanks, cant wait! I'm enjoying these two alternative takes, the manga has to do something to catch people's attention since it's behind the anime after all.

[Araki]

Reading your post reminded me of something. Didn't Toriyama said in an interview that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorb its power and he will work on improving his base and Super Saiyan forms for now on instead of increasing his transformations. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically just god ki merged with a normal Super Saiyan, it fits with Toriayma's words. So, Goku shouldn't need Super Saiyan God according to Toriyama, yet the manga made it stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Either Toriyama changed his mind, or Toyotaro missed that detail.

Yeah, and according to Goku himself, isn't SSGSS his way of tapping into that power by himself? Goku using SSG or even having access to it makes no sense.
The Vegeta thing is another issue. So, in Toyotaro's world, Vegeta will always be a lot weaker than Goku...just because he doesn't wanna go through a ritual. That's what we can take from it.
Not to mention this is like Vegeta achieving a SS3 that is weaker than Goku's SS2. Beyond all the issues with logic and contradictions - SS Blue WAS said to be stronger than SSG, no matter what manga apologists will say - it makes him look pathetic on all fronts (and i'm not even a big fan of the character).

[sintzu]

For some reason this brought me back to that old rumor which Toriyama supposedly said that "red is stronger than blue." lol

It wasn't a rumor, during the BOG movie marketing he was asked why he picked red and he said it looked stronger than Blue and the other colors.

It had nothing to do with it being stronger then the new form which at the time wasn't a thing and if that's the case then why don't they say so ? all it would take is one line like Beerus telling them "the ritual makes you stronger so that's what you'll do if we're to fight again".

I know the original had problems but for the most part it explained everything unlike Super where the writers don't even care anymore and just do whatever just because.

[ekrolo2]

Reading your post reminded me of something. Didn't Toriyama said in an interview that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorb its power and he will work on improving his base and Super Saiyan forms for now on instead of increasing his transformations. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically just god ki merged with a normal Super Saiyan, it fits with Toriayma's words. So, Goku shouldn't need Super Saiyan God according to Toriyama, yet the manga made it stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Either Toriyama changed his mind, or Toyotaro missed that detail.

Yeah, and according to Goku himself, isn't SSGSS his way of tapping into that power by himself? Goku using SSG or even having access to it makes no sense.
The Vegeta thing is another issue. So, in Toyotaro's world, Vegeta will always be a lot weaker than Goku...just because he doesn't wanna go through a ritual. That's what we can take from it.
Not to mention this is like Vegeta achieving a SS3 that is weaker than Goku's SS2. Beyond all the issues with logic and contradictions, it makes him look pathetic on all fronts (and i'm not even a big fan of the character).

Nothing says Vegeta didn't do the ritual, the Super manga literally tells you nothing on how he got Blue. At. All.

Also, if Vegeta's base form is vastly inferior to Goku's, his SSJ3 form WOULD be inferior to Goku's SSJ2 if Goku had a way higher base than him. Saying Vegeta should be stronger than ANY Goku just by having 3 is like saying Super Saiyan 4 Goku from the Namek arc should be able to take on Boo Saga Vegetto no problem. Just cause he has 4.

The manga of F also says Vegeta's inferior to Goku and trains worse than him, so in the context of its own thing, the manga isn't contradicting anything. The only contradictions arise if you try to cram in TV or movie details into the mangaverse which is a totally seperate beast from both of those.

[namekiansaiyan]

If you're base form is inferior to another fighters who has access to Blue, he's naturally going to be stronger due to his stronger base level. That's why I don't think this really contradicts anything, especially since Whis, as I stated before, blatantly tells Vegeta he's a step behind Goku and trains less efficiently than him.

A step behind, not light years behind which is what the manga is implying.

Exactly, the manga is basically saying Vegeta is 2 stages behind.

[Xeztin]

Reading your post reminded me of something. Didn't Toriyama said in an interview that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorb its power and he will work on improving his base and Super Saiyan forms for now on instead of increasing his transformations. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically just god ki merged with a normal Super Saiyan, it fits with Toriayma's words. So, Goku shouldn't need Super Saiyan God according to Toriyama, yet the manga made it stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Either Toriyama changed his mind, or Toyotaro missed that detail.

Yeah, and according to Goku himself, isn't SSGSS his way of tapping into that power by himself? Goku using SSG or even having access to it makes no sense.
The Vegeta thing is another issue. So, in Toyotaro's world, Vegeta will always be a lot weaker than Goku...just because he doesn't wanna go through a ritual. That's what we can take from it.
Not to mention this is like Vegeta achieving a SS3 that is weaker than Goku's SS2. Beyond all the issues with logic and contradictions, it makes him look pathetic on all fronts (and i'm not even a big fan of the character).

I think it's just what you make of it, if SSG is acting as a "Base" (It does look like a base) and SSJB is acting as normal Super Saiyan multiplying the base, it'd make sense why Vegeta is weaker because he doesn't have SSG. SSJB is probably using Vegeta's normal base as a substitute but it's safe to say they both have God Ki and it looks like that God Ki is the only thing required to obtain SSJB and you don't need SSG.

[Sodhi]

Vegeta is not that much weaker than vegeta. At Least no 10x like in the Anime. He is probably a little bit weaker not a lot.

[Noah]

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

WTF?

IT CAN'T BE!

I though Super manga followed the events of BoG movie, where Vegeta shows willingness to do ritual! I though they're equal! This don't make any sense, so in 3 years training in RoSaT Vegeta was just a punching bag for Goku? Inconceivable!

[ekrolo2]

DevilsCorpse just said Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku and that Blue's "stamina issues" are actually played a part in it. Apparently, Vegeta lost a 10th of his energy reserves just to show Blue to Cabba.