Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[Mazingerdestro]

Oh, this is where we have to disagree. Dragon Ball is a manga by Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball should look like Akira Toriyama's work. And, in that respect, almost every animator who has ever worked on Super manages to achieve that better than Tate does.

The only thing the anime can use from the manga is the character designs. The animation or the movement is unaffected by the manga.
Tate's main issue is that he can't/doesn't want to design on model.

I start feeling that this threat and all of ajay's work are useless. Most people visit this threat to bitch instead of discuss and most comments can't go beyond "this sucks or this is good". Understanding why Tate or why Yamamuro are considered good should be pretty easy and I still find people unable to understand the difference between art and movement. (Also someone posted something about db purist......damn that was.....damn)

[Doctor.]

Oh, this is where we have to disagree. Dragon Ball is a manga by Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball should look like Akira Toriyama's work. And, in that respect, almost every animator who has ever worked on Super manages to achieve that better than Tate does.

The only thing the anime can use from the manga is the character designs. The animation or the movement is unaffected by the manga.
Tate's main issue is that he can't/doesn't want to design on model.

Which is why I talked about Tate's art style being unlike Dragon Ball, not his animation.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Again, with the "it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and doesn't move like Dragon Ball". Please show me where it is written or is there a rule I'm not aware of which says that Dragon Ball has one style and only one style in which it should be drawn. This logic is ridiculous cause Cockpit did it back in Z. Nothing in their episodes was even remotely close to Toriyama's art and yet they are fan favorites.

That Freeza image you posted is an example of good character animation. How do you expect Freeza to react when he is getting neck-chopped? That's Tate's character expressions which he does it on purpose for exaggeration. I see nothing wrong with all the others you posted cause it's his style and Japanese animation is known for letting individuality shine and unlike the other regulars who go unnoticed most of the time, Tate stands out. I guess that's a problem for people who complain when someone tries to be not "on-model" and I can't relate to that at all.

The anime is the anime. Animators don't need to stick close to Toriyama's art to be called good. Neither do they need to stick close to the character designs. The reason Tate is a huge name and why he is praised because he tries to be different. Rather than safe, on-model crap he delivers impressive work with his unique style and is trusted with more drawings and significant episodes.

[Draconic]

To add to the last post, Toriyama himself has given freedom and put his trust in the animators to do their job.

[Mazingerdestro]

Again, with the "it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and doesn't move like Dragon Ball". Please show me where it is written or is there a rule I'm not aware of which says that Dragon Ball has one style and only one style in which it should be drawn

Don't ask for explanations. They refer to art but don't know the difference between art and movement. The "animation style" everyone mentions translates to "not on model designs". They just don't know how to refer to it

[Ajay]

Tate has far more Toriyama traits than you may think/care to admit.

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

Sorry if the quality is trash. Posting from mobile.

[Doctor.]

Again, with the "it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and doesn't move like Dragon Ball".

I never said this.

I said it doesn't look like Dragon Ball.

Please show me where it is written or is there a rule I'm not aware of which says that Dragon Ball has one style and only one style in which it should be drawn.

Akira Toriyama's manga.

This logic is ridiculous cause Cockpit did it back in Z. Nothing in their episodes was even remotely close to Toriyama's art and yet they are fan favorites.

I was never a fan of their art style. Of their animation, sure.

That Freeza image you posted is an example of good character animation. How do you expect Freeza to react when he is getting neck-chopped? That's Tate's character expressions which he does it on purpose for exaggeration.

You seem to have completely missed the point. The point isn't that the expression is bad. The point is that it looks awkward when it's just a still image. It looks like it's supposed to be an in-between, like it's supposed to be a part of a bigger movement, but there's no movement at all. The characters just stay there, with those awkward poses and expressions. That completely breaks the immersion, I'm sorry you can't comprehend that.

Animators don't need to stick close to Toriyama's art to be called good.

I never called Tate bad. I said I didn't like him. There's a difference.

The reason Tate is a huge name and why he is praised because he tries to be different. Rather than safe, on-model crap he delivers impressive work with his unique style and is trusted with more drawings and significant episodes.

And you're missing the point once again. Do you really think the casual fanbase cares about all of that? They see something that looks extremely different to everything and they're not gonna like it. It doesn't matter how good Tate is, it doesn't matter how huge his name is, people who aren't into animation are always going to dislike him; that was all I was getting at, I never called him bad.

Tate has far more Toriyama traits than you may think/care to admit.

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

Sorry if the quality is trash. Posting from mobile.

I don't see it. The only similarity I can point out are the long chins that Toriyama drew mostly during the Android arc and also sometimes during the Boo arc. Maybe the fact that the ears are way above the jawline, too. Besides that, though? Ears are long and angular, eyes are straight, sharp lines, noses are normal in size. There's no roundness, which is abundant in Tate's work, to Toriyama's style post-Saiyan arc.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Last I checked, Toriyama knows nothing about animation and is not a character designer and leaves everything in the anime to the animation staff. It's not his business.
Yeah, you're right I can't understand what's so bad about exaggerated character animation. It looks good to me.

If the casual fans, I hate to use the word casual cause casual fans don't go on the internet arguing about animation don't care about the product they are enjoying, they don't care about animation, they don't care about the creators, they don't understand or want to understand Japanese animation, then they should really stop talking about animation.

[Gashif Aldi]

Oh, this is where we have to disagree. Dragon Ball is a manga by Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball should look like Akira Toriyama's work. And, in that respect, almost every animator who has ever worked on Super manages to achieve that better than Tate does.

The only thing the anime can use from the manga is the character designs. The animation or the movement is unaffected by the manga.
Tate's main issue is that he can't/doesn't want to design on model.

I start feeling that this threat and all of ajay's work are useless. Most people visit this threat to bitch instead of discuss and most comments can't go beyond "this sucks or this is good". Understanding why Tate or why Yamamuro are considered good should be pretty easy and I still find people unable to understand the difference between art and movement. (Also someone posted something about db purist......damn that was.....damn)

I think he's given a lot of time, but focuses in Quantity over Quality. Like, look at the credits. He's always a top Key Animator, even in his own supervised episode.

Like, some scenes are better, and on-model in episode 5 (also supervised by 1 guy).
While episode 72 had better schedule and also there's 2 Supervisor doing a lots Key Animation, but the case is some frames look derpier than episode 5.
I still do think that Tate is conservative for now.
But, it's still better for him Supervising without any Key Animations or the opposite.

Sorry that I brought cancer with me xD.

[Doctor.]

Last I checked, Toriyama knows nothing about animation and is not a character designer and leaves everything in the anime to the animation staff. It's not his business.

Irrelevant. Dragon Ball is his property, anything that deviates from his art style is a misrepresentation of what Dragon Ball should truly look like. Yamamuro's character designs manage to somewhat accurately translate Toriyama's art style into animation, but Tate's art doesn't. Animators should never have absolute freedom.

Yeah, you're right I can't understand what's so bad about exaggerated character animation. It looks good to me.

How can you call it character animation when there's literally no movement? It's a still. It says on-screen for seconds and it's distracting. You don't have your legs and arms twisted like Freeza does for seconds at a time after you get hit with a neck chop, your body should spazz out, there should be movement in his limbs. That's the point, not that his animation is bad, but that he interlaces his fluid animation with his awkward character poses, which hold no movement at all.

In the other example, Goku just stays in the air for like 2 or 3 seconds while Nozawa screams in the background. In the other one, Vegeta should be falling, but once again there's no movement, it's just Vegeta in a downward angle with an awkward expression on his face. And on the remaining one, Goku should be punching Hit, but again, almost no movement, his arm and facial expression barely moves at all.

If the casual fans, I hate to use the word casual cause casual fans don't go on the internet arguing about animation don't care about the product they are enjoying, they don't care about animation, they don't care about the creators, they don't understand or want to understand Japanese animation, then they should really stop talking about animation.

That doesn't work like that. You can't put out a product and expect everyone to fully comprehend every technical detail about it. Do you need to be a music expert to say you don't like Sumitomo's work? Do you need to be a literature expert to say you don't like some plot development?

[Saikyo no Senshi]

That's not how Japanese cartoons work. The manga is the manga and the mangaka's product. He can do whatever the hell he wants to with it. The anime is the animation staff's product. The director's vision is given more importance. They are just adapting Toriyama's story. How they choose to is their right and freedom and they can do whatever they want to.

If animators were not given freedom, the unique Japanese animation which Japan is so proud of would die. They should be and will be given freedom. That's their identity.

That Freeza Gokuu fight sequence if I remember correctly is a part of the 1 minute Tate cut and that shot showcases Freeza's pain after he gets chopped. That exaggerated expression is what I'm talking about. It quickly follows with Gokuu trying to elbow him and Freeza blocking and blasting him covered with gorgeous impact frames, so it's not that long.

Yes, not everyone needs to be an expert. I'm no expert and neither is anyone here, but an informed opinion that comes from a place of understanding is better than an uninformed one. As it is, there's a lot of misinformation regarding animation.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Emm you didn't say anything I don't really know, like at this point Idk episode 5 is from tate? Lol.
I was referring to despite the schedule got better, his art got worse, way too worse.

But that's demonstrably false by any reasonable metric. He didn't have any bad cuts if the FT Arc,, the RoSaT scene way back when was messy, but fluid as ever, his Goku vs Hit back at the tournament was all good up until right after Hit kicks him. I think Tate got a little whiskey in him before drawing that frame. Episode 72 was an exception to the rule.

[Doctor.]

They are just adapting Toriyama's story. How they choose to is their right and freedom and they can do whatever they want to.

If they're adapting Toriyama's work, then they should get as close to it as possible, otherwise it's a poor adaptation. That's my perspective, and it always was, I made a post examplifying why I personally don't like Tate. I want my Dragon Ball to look like Toriyama.

If animators were not given freedom, the unique Japanese animation which Japan is so proud of would die. They should be and will be given freedom. That's their identity.

And that's fine. I said they shouldn't be given absolute freedom. Character sheets exist for a reason, right?

That Freeza Gokuu fight sequence if I remember correctly is a part of the 1 minute Tate cut and that shot showcases Freeza's pain after he gets chopped. That exaggerated expression is what I'm talking about. It quickly follows with Gokuu trying to elbow him and Freeza blocking and blasting him covered with gorgeous impact frames, so it's not that long.

The cut is great. It's that particular frame that's the problem. There's no movement when Freeza gets neck-chopped. Both Goku and Freeza stay still with those expressions on their face. The lack of movement for a relatively long amount of time makes the whole scene look awkward. It's distracting, I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Yes, not everyone needs to be an expert. I'm no expert and neither is anyone here, but an informed opinion that comes from a place of understanding is better than an uninformed one. As it is, there's a lot of misinformation regarding animation.

There's a lot of misinformation in the Dragon Ball fanbase as it is, not just in animation. When you have a franchise so big, that's to be expected.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Please show me where it is written or is there a rule I'm not aware of which says that Dragon Ball has one style and only one style in which it should be drawn.

Akira Toriyama's manga.

The manga that went through more styles than a sewing machine?

As if they should emulate a manga that's over 20 years old anyway. That's not how this works, you'd have to regress to do that. Do you really want the same old Dragon Ball that was made in the 90's?

[Doctor.]

That manga that went through more styles than a sewing machine?

As if they should emulate a manga that's over 20 years old anyway. That's not how this works, you'd have to regress to do that. Do you really want the same old Dragon Ball that was made in the 90's?

In an ideal world, it'd look like Toriyama's current style.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

You might as well only read the manga. The anime never will be a panel-by-panel adaptation. What you're saying is the extreme opposite of what Japanese cartoons stand for. It never was and never will be like that. I don't know what else to say.

Character sheets can be thrown into the garbage and impressive work can still be produced, right? Remember, Shida?! His style despite being different from the sheets is good and same goes for Tate and all good idiosyncratic animators who have a creative voice.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

That manga that went through more styles than a sewing machine?

As if they should emulate a manga that's over 20 years old anyway. That's not how this works, you'd have to regress to do that. Do you really want the same old Dragon Ball that was made in the 90's?

In an ideal world, it'd look like Toriyama's current style.

But Toriyama isn't at the head of this ship anymore, he's done with that role. and has been for quite a while. The series can't forever suckle at the teet of its creator, it needs to evolve on its own.

[Doctor.]

You might as well only read the manga. The anime never will be a panel-by-panel adaptation. What you're saying is the extreme opposite of what Japanese cartoons stand for. It never was and never will be like that. I don't know what else to say.

You're saying an adaptation created for promotional purposes (at least the original Dragon Ball Z, not Super) shouldn't be an exact representation of the source material?

Character sheets can be thrown into the garbage and impressive work can still be produced, right? Remember, Shida?! His style despite being different from the sheets is good and same goes for Tate and all good idiosyncratic animators who have a creative voice.

And that's fine. Again, I didn't call Tate's animation bad, I don't see why you're taking my comments as if I'm insulting his work. I said I don't like his work, that's all, his art is vastly different from anyone else working on the show and that's off-putting, it breaks my immersion and I don't enjoy it. It's technically good animation, I've already said that a billion times, but I don't like it. I'm not sure what else I can say to get the point across.

But Toriyama isn't at the head of this ship anymore, he's done with that role. and has been for quite a while. The series can't forever suckle at the teet of its creator, it needs to evolve on its own.

And yet it doesn't seem the series wants to do that. As long as they continue to rely on Toriyama, I'm expecting my Dragon Ball to be Toriyama. When they decide to go their own way, then sure, do whatever you want, it's not Toriyama's work anymore.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

As long as they continue to rely on Toriyama, I'm expecting my Dragon Ball to be Toriyama. When they decide to go their own way, then sure, do whatever you want, it's not Toriyama's work anymore.

That's a fine opinion, I guess. I don't stake my enjoyment of anything on how similar it is to something else, that's just a bizarre standard.

[Doctor.]

As long as they continue to rely on Toriyama, I'm expecting my Dragon Ball to be Toriyama. When they decide to go their own way, then sure, do whatever you want, it's not Toriyama's work anymore.

That's a fine opinion, I guess. I don't stake my enjoyment of anything on how similar it is to something else, that's just a bizarre standard.

Oh, I'm not staking my enjoyment on this. The production side of things is a miniscule part of why I enjoy a series. It's always the writing that's the most important.