I thought Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 had that issue.ekrolo2 wrote:DevilsCorpse just said Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku and that Blue's "stamina issues" are actually played a part in it. Apparently, Vegeta lost a 10th of his energy reserves just to show Blue to Cabba.
It is said in the manga after skipping the Freeza arc, that both Goku and Vegeta got SSJB through training with Whis. From this I take that you only need God Ki to obtain SSJB not the SSG form itself, which Goku got from SSG, and Vegeta got from Whis. That would imply that there are two ways to obtain God Ki, through the ritual or Whis. It seems through training with Whis is how you obtain SSJB but without SSG it will be weaker.ekrolo2 wrote:Nothing says Vegeta didn't do the ritual, the Super manga literally tells you nothing on how he got Blue. At. All.Araki wrote:Yeah, and according to Goku himself, isn't SSGSS his way of tapping into that power by himself? Goku using SSG or even having access to it makes no sense.HeroR wrote:Reading your post reminded me of something. Didn't Toriyama said in an interview that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorb its power and he will work on improving his base and Super Saiyan forms for now on instead of increasing his transformations. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically just god ki merged with a normal Super Saiyan, it fits with Toriayma's words. So, Goku shouldn't need Super Saiyan God according to Toriyama, yet the manga made it stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta.
Either Toriyama changed his mind, or Toyotaro missed that detail.
The Vegeta thing is another issue. So, in Toyotaro's world, Vegeta will always be a lot weaker than Goku...just because he doesn't wanna go through a ritual. That's what we can take from it.
Not to mention this is like Vegeta achieving a SS3 that is weaker than Goku's SS2. Beyond all the issues with logic and contradictions, it makes him look pathetic on all fronts (and i'm not even a big fan of the character).
Also, if Vegeta's base form is vastly inferior to Goku's, his SSJ3 form WOULD be inferior to Goku's SSJ2 if Goku had a way higher base than him. Saying Vegeta should be stronger than ANY Goku just by having 3 is like saying Super Saiyan 4 Goku from the Namek arc should be able to take on Boo Saga Vegetto no problem. Just cause he has 4.
The manga of F also says Vegeta's inferior to Goku and trains worse than him, so in the context of its own thing, the manga isn't contradicting anything. The only contradictions arise if you try to cram in TV or movie details into the mangaverse which is a totally seperate beast from both of those.
In fairness, the manga never said if Vegeta went through the ritual or not. Everyone just assumed that he did until the anime of Super said that he got his god power through hard work. So, he could have gone through the ritual in the manga, but for some reason was still inferior to Goku, I guess because he kept less of the god power compared to Goku. And, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta did surpass Super Saiyan 3 Goku, although that was because Vegeta got an emotional boast and it was temporary.Araki wrote: Yeah, and according to Goku himself, isn't SSGSS his way of tapping into that power by himself? Goku using SSG or even having access to it makes no sense.
The Vegeta thing is another issue. So, in Toyotaro's world, Vegeta will always be a lot weaker than Goku...just because he doesn't wanna go through a ritual. That's what we can take from it.
Not to mention this is like Vegeta achieving a SS3 that is weaker than Goku's SS2. Beyond all the issues with logic and contradictions - SS Blue WAS said to be stronger than SSG, no matter what manga apologists will say - it makes him look pathetic on all fronts (and i'm not even a big fan of the character).
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Which is fine but they need to explain it.namekiansaiyan wrote:Exactly, the manga is basically saying Vegeta is 2 stages behind.
So Vegeta isn't weaker, he just lost a lot of power during the fight against Cabbe ?ekrolo2 wrote:Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit. - DevlisCorpse on the matter.
Then it's safe to say that even without SSG he still is on Goku's tail and every transformation after will keep this pattern?ekrolo2 wrote:DevilsCorpse just said Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku and that Blue's "stamina issues" are actually played a part in it. Apparently, Vegeta lost a 10th of his energy reserves just to show Blue to Cabba.
He losses power by using Blue multiple times in quick succession which is taxing on the body. I edited my post above for further clarification. Basically, SS is still the optimal state while Blue isn't, a reverse of the anime.sintzu wrote:So Vegeta isn't weaker, he just lost a lot of power during the fight against Cabbe ?ekrolo2 wrote:Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit. - DevlisCorpse on the matter.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
So why isn't Vegeta using SSG, too? In fact, assuming Vegeta actually went through the ritual, having his base form so much weaker than Goku's to the point that his SSB is inferior to Goku's SSG is even stranger when you think about it. I think that makes things worse!ekrolo2 wrote:Nothing says Vegeta didn't do the ritual, the Super manga literally tells you nothing on how he got Blue. At. All.
Also, if Vegeta's base form is vastly inferior to Goku's, his SSJ3 form WOULD be inferior to Goku's SSJ2 if Goku had a way higher base than him. Saying Vegeta should be stronger than ANY Goku just by having 3 is like saying Super Saiyan 4 Goku from the Namek arc should be able to take on Boo Saga Vegetto no problem. Just cause he has 4.
What Whis said in all versions was that Vegeta was always behind Goku, which is nothing new. Not to THIS point, at least. And while Goku was always superior when they were using the same transformation, we've never seen Goku being stronger than Vegeta while at a lower level. No matter how we try to explain it, it's just as bad as SS2 Vegeta's being more powerful than Goku's SS3 in BoG.The manga of F also says Vegeta's inferior to Goku and trains worse than him, so in the context of its own thing, the manga isn't contradicting anything.
But i thought people said the manga was following the movies? I mean, it even skipped one of them to avoid telling its story again. The only version of the Freeza fight the manga has for reference is the movie, same for Goku explaining SSGSS to him. So what's the deal, is it following the movies or ignoring whatever it feels convenient?The only contradictions arise if you try to cram in TV or movie details into the mangaverse which is a totally seperate beast from both of those.
That's good to know, so Goku being stronger was just compared to Vegeta after using it multiple times, not compared to him while he's at full power.ekrolo2 wrote: He losses power by using Blue multiple times in quick succession which is taxing on the body. I edited my post above for further clarification. Basically, SS is still the optimal state while Blue isn't, a reverse of the anime.
I take back what I said (again), the manga is better and makes more sense.ekrolo2 wrote:
Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. - DevlisCorpse on the matter.
Nothing on that yet but if I had to take a wild guess (and please don't take this as fact, this is just my speculation) I'd say its like in episode 43 where the sick Goku, in his current weakened state says that even Piccolo can beat him.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, is full power SSB Vegeta weaker than SSG Goku, or just 1/10th SSB Vegeta?
Yeah, not to mention that there isn't any proof at this point that points to Toyotaro as the author of that idea. In fact, even if was his idea, it has been said that Toriyama supervises every manga chapter, so he must be ok with this.Sodhi wrote:Or maybe you dont like what he did.Chiki wrote: Welp, after the poor writing in Dragonball AF and SSG Goku > SSB Vegeta and no Kaioken, it should be clear that Toyotaro has no talent for writing.
No, the reason Goku is stronger now is due to Vegeta draining his power which is thanks to Ssjb being used twice in a row.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, is full power SSB Vegeta weaker than SSG Goku ?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
