Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Okay, found out the problem. I had my audio turned off and he's indeed subtly laughing even at 0.29, but seriously, that's gotta be one of the most incredible facial expression/ laugh mismatches I've ever seen. Egads, if you turn the audio off he looks legitimately hurt.

Well... Still, he's not properly tanking as in "I'm basking in the sun while you shower me with your attacks"; it looks like he has to put some sort of defense, so Super Saiyan Trunks shouldn't be totally outclassed against (Base, I suppose) Black, whatever his (or their) possibly absurd power level(s) may be at this point.

Black kick Super Saiyan Trunks' butt, there is no two ways about it. He laughed when Trunks punched him. Yeah, he didn't stand there and do a completely no sell, but it's obvious that Trunks' attacks had no effect on him.

Well, since "tanking" as a jargon means no-selling in the first place I guess that's the a terminology problem, then.

Yeah, you're right.

To me, tanking me taking a hit with no real damage. Like if someone gets hit with an energy blast and the worst thing it does is singe their skin, I call that tanking. No selling is when they take a hit and it does no damage at all and they didn't even feel it.

[Kishido]

Poor Gotenks

[Chiki]

There IS a way to reconcile the anime and manga power levels.

In the manga, we have SSG instead of Saiyan Beyond God. In the anime, we have Saiyan Beyond God instead of SSG. That's the only difference.

I definitely prefer the manga's power levels but it seems we have to go with an invisible SSG in the anime as we did for RoF and BoG.

Notice that Cell Games FPSSJ Goku was well above SSJ Trunks. Even without god ki, Goku would be capable of playing around with SSJ Trunks, so even if in the next ep we see SSJ Goku not taking SSJ Trunks seriously, it doesn't mean that he's using god ki.

[buutenks]

Most likely trunks is far stronger than his cell saga self. So goku needing ssj to counter trunks' ssj makes sense.

Plus this means goku will need ssj blue to fight black, since I'm sure black has a transformation.

Base goku>base trunks
ssj goku>ssj trunks
Black>ssj goku>ssj trunks
ssj blue goku>black
transformed black>/= ssj blue

[Chiki]

Most likely trunks is far stronger than his cell saga self. So goku needing ssj to counter trunks' ssj makes sense.

Plus this means goku will need ssj blue to fight black, since I'm sure black has a transformation.

Base goku>base trunks
ssj goku>ssj trunks
Black>ssj goku>ssj trunks
ssj blue goku>black
transformed black>/= ssj blue

It's impossible for Trunks to be "far stronger." He didn't have a training partner. Even Goku in the Other World didn't increase his strength much in base or SS; he got stronger by unlocking SS2 and SS3.

Trunks would have to be significantly stronger than SS3 Gotenks in Base!

[ekrolo2]

Funnily enough what we see in the NEP fits perfectly with what we found out in today's latest manga chapter.

Neither Base or Super Saiyan are as strong as Super Saiyan God and they are seemingly just at regular levels. So Super Saiyan Trunks giving Super Saiyan Goku "trouble" is perfectly acceptable under that continuity.

It'd make sense if this scene happened in the manga but it won't if it happens in the anime.

Except we know they're tougher than Piccolo and a weakened SSJ Gohan as neither of them even in the F manga said they could take on Freeza. Roshi and Krillin seemed pretty convinced Mister Boo could really turn things in their favor so make of that what you will.

[Bullza]

Well he wouldn't necessarily have to have a training partner. Perhaps Bulma created a Gravity Machine for him.

Also if Black beats Super Saiyan Trunks in base somewhat easily and Goku has to use Super Saiyan against Trunks then maybe that means Black > SSJ Goku.

On another note in the manga it seems as though SSJB is less than 10x as strong as SSJG which doesn't seem to work with the anime unless in the anime Base really isn't as strong as SSJG.

If SSJB was equal to SSJG instead then it could work.

[buutenks]

I hope they get a new form this arc or the omniversal tourney arc.

[Chiki]

Well he wouldn't necessarily have to have a training partner. Perhaps Bulma created a Gravity Machine for him.

A gravity machine won't put Base Trunks above SS3 Gotenks.... Vegeta trained in the gravity machine ever since the end of the Frieza arc and his base never went above SS3 Gotenks, not even during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games arc and Buu arc (when he was equal to Mirai Trunks). If the gravity machine was that good for training, Vegeta could've just soloed Buu by himself easily.

He'd need to train with Whis to be that strong, period.

Also if Black beats Super Saiyan Trunks in base somewhat easily and Goku has to use Super Saiyan against Trunks then maybe that means Black > SSJ Goku.

Someone who is equal to someone in Base who can defeat SS3 Gotenks like nothing does not need to turn SSJ against Trunks unless he isn't using godly ki.

On another note in the manga it seems as though SSJB is less than 10x as strong as SSJG which doesn't seem to work with the anime unless in the anime Base really isn't as strong as SSJG.

If SSJB was equal to SSJG instead then it could work.

Um... no. It's been outright stated both in the RoF movie and by the narrator in Super AND by the manga that SSB > SSG.

[Saturnine]

And suddenly the "two bases" hypothesis becomes ever more convenient.

[Bullza]

A gravity machine won't put Base Trunks above SS3 Gotenks....

I didn't say it would. You said it was impossible for him to be far stronger but if he had access to a Gravity Machine then with 9/10 years training with he could be far stronger than he was at the Cell Games.

Someone who is equal to someone in Base who can defeat SS3 Gotenks like nothing does not need to turn SSJ against Trunks unless he isn't using godly ki.

Well you saw the same preview as me and that's how it looks for now.

Um... no. It's been outright stated both in the RoF movie and by the narrator in Super AND by the manga that SSB > SSG.

Yeah there wasn't supposed to be a B on there. I meant SSJ = SSJG.

In the anime Beerus said that Goku when he was a Super Saiyan hadn't really lost any power from when he was a SSJG. If it that still held true through to now and SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku then SSJB being less than 10x more powerful could possibly still work.

Base being equal to SSJG and SSJB being less than 10x stronger doesn't really work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Irrelevant. The point is the form ITSELF isn't stronger than SSG, in fact it is inherently weaker.

The form doesn't have a name, we only have a description of Goku who is described as "a Saiyan who has surpassed God". Which means that FnF base Goku with SSG power is stronger than BoG SSG Goku, according to that line.

Incorrect. It is said once to "surpass" SSG, in the same breath that the narrator says it "surpasses" the powered up Freeza, which it clearly doesn't in terms of raw power. Meanwhile it is stated to be equal in power to SSG more than once.

The latest manga chapter literally just showed that SSB is stronger than SSG, and that SSB has more stamina issues than SSG. This is no longer a debate.

Freeza wanted to torture everyone before they died. That was the whole point. Copy Vegeta just wanted Gotenks dead, while the real Vegeta encouraged him to fight and buy them some time.

Then why didn't Copy-Vegeta turn into a Super Saiyan to one-shot him, if he wanted him dead that badly?

[ekrolo2]

Trunks' Ki being sensed all the way to Beerus' planet is.... odd. If Freeza weren't around I'd just chalk up the Gohan thing as Gohan's power being lowered from all the damage he'd taken and not as SSJ Trunks >>>> F SSJ Gohan as some people are. But then there's Freeza who Goku can't sense and oh fuck this! The animes bullshit.

I mean, the mangas got some bullshit too but the animes just awful with this stuff.

[TheMikado]

^ don't think you can say it's definitively not a debate. We just got too very different explanations of the same form. At this point the anime, the manga, and the movies are NOT the same story. You literally cannot cross reference between them. If the anime is considered canon then I guess that's what we have to go with??

[ekrolo2]

^ don't think you can say it's definitively not a debate. We just got too very different explanations of the same form. At this point the anime, the manga, and the movies are NOT the same story. You literally cannot cross reference between them. If the anime is considered canon then I guess that's what we have to go with??

I know, I was clued in on that when we got three completely incompatible versions of Battle of Gods across three different formats. Nor did I ever use anything from the manga in my previous comment, its just that the anime has nothing resembling internal consistency with itself. The movies and manga most definitely did with a few glaring but still few problems.

[TheMikado]

^ don't think you can say it's definitively not a debate. We just got too very different explanations of the same form. At this point the anime, the manga, and the movies are NOT the same story. You literally cannot cross reference between them. If the anime is considered canon then I guess that's what we have to go with??

I know, I was clued in on that when we got three completely incompatible versions of Battle of Gods across three different formats. Nor did I ever use anything from the manga in my previous comment, its just that the anime has nothing resembling internal consistency with itself. The movies and manga most definitely did with a few glaring but still few problems.

That's also true about the anime which the worse part of this. The "canon" material is so flawed we keep mixing other formats just to try to make sense of it. Imagine you had to read the Harry Potter books just to understand what was happening in the movies. Good works compliment each other not contradict (although the can occasional but not all the time on everything)

[ekrolo2]

^ don't think you can say it's definitively not a debate. We just got too very different explanations of the same form. At this point the anime, the manga, and the movies are NOT the same story. You literally cannot cross reference between them. If the anime is considered canon then I guess that's what we have to go with??

I know, I was clued in on that when we got three completely incompatible versions of Battle of Gods across three different formats. Nor did I ever use anything from the manga in my previous comment, its just that the anime has nothing resembling internal consistency with itself. The movies and manga most definitely did with a few glaring but still few problems.

That's also true about the anime which the worse part of this. The "canon" material is so flawed we keep mixing other formats just to try to make sense of it. Imagine you had to read the Harry Potter books just to understand what was happening in the movies. Good works compliment each other not contradict (although the can occasional but not all the time on everything)

Eh, as a guy who reads comics all the time where there are a multitude of different versions just in that space and many more once you take their various adaptations into account this really doesn't bother me that much.

I'd say a great deal of the confusion would pretty much end if people realized the simple truth that the only thing approaching a real canon in Dragon Ball is the original 42 volumes of the manga and everything else is entirely up to an individual to take or leave as they want. Hell, that's what I do by counting Father of Goku, DB, Z Kai as my "canon" while always referring to the 42 volumes whenever I need solid proof or to prove a point.

[MaGyunia]

Why cares if Trunks can fight with Goku? is that really that much of a issue?

He can fight or train with someone much stronger than him and still have a fair battle or even win, depending on how much his superior opponent is holding back. Goku could very well just be fighting at a level similar or slightly superior to that of Mirai no Trunks to train him, otherwise he would kill him.

I've gotta agree with Hero, it does look like Black is laughing rather than being remotely hurt. On the other hand he does seem to have trouble putting down Trunks in the rest of the fight despite trying to kill him, plus he needs to defend himself from Trunks's blast. Oh and Trunks blocks some of his blows.

He's laughing maniacally at how pathetically inferior Mirai no Trunks' attempts at fighting him are, given the absurd gap there is between their power. Yet another instance of extremely wicked and evil behavior from Black. Such great potential to become a favorite villain or character in the entirety of the Dragonball franchise. I hope they confirm my expectations and don't screw anything up when it comes to Black.

By the way, on another note, and sorry for bringing this back now as it has nothing to do with the current discussions and fighters, but shouldn't Goku's punch have destroyed Monaka? Goku wasn't holding that much back and Monaka is just a normal being.

[TheMikado]

^ except he word "canon" is tossed around the fandom so much that you can't have a discussion about Dragonball without also discussing what's canon and what's not or saying that there IS a preferred version for discussion. Even this forum has preferred version just which one is the preferred versions of Super now?

[MaGyunia]

It's not the first time we see the same events portrayed in a different manner in different episodes or between the main series and a special or a movie. Which version of the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc is canon - the BoG and Fukkatsu no F's one or the DBSuper one - is subject to infinite and endless debate unless and until we get some sort of official confirmation, but the differences between the two aren't that many anyhow. Both arcs in the series are an almost word-by-word recount or retelling of the events in the two movies, there are only minor changes, adaptations and a few additions here and there. Shisami being killed by Tagoma instead of Freeza, Krilling using the move he did in the series instead of the way he fought in Fukkatsu no F, Ginyu's appearance, etc., these are but slight variations. I personally choose to take DBSuper's version of the events, if I absolutely had to pick one. It's a TV series, not a movie, and I believe the first takes or should take precedence over the latter, for no special reason.