Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[kinisking]

Was Gohans Kamehameha based off the one they did with goku in episode 69? The posture and everything looks similar.

[Bansho64]

I'm with Doctor on this one. Like he said, I just don't like a lot of Tate's stuff. The awkward poses, the weird movements, I just can't do it. Not in Super. I am not saying that his animation isn't good, but I just don't like it. The way he does the expressions and the poses just don't do it for me. It's for these reasons that I like his stuff in Z and GT a lot more than his current stuff.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

You're saying an adaptation created for promotional purposes (at least the original Dragon Ball Z, not Super) shouldn't be an exact representation of the source material?

I'm surprised that you're not aware of the heavy input of the anime staff in a show. Mind you, the plot points and characters is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the director's vision.

The Vegeta Gokuu fight in the Boo arc, for example is Yama'uchi's vision which is given more importance, not Toriyama's. The storyboard takes reference from the source material, but it does not copy paste it. The good creators don't do that. They are creative enough to expand or add something to it that makes it good and innovative. It happens in every show.

[Doctor.]

You're saying an adaptation created for promotional purposes (at least the original Dragon Ball Z, not Super) shouldn't be an exact representation of the source material?

I'm surprised that you're not aware of the heavy input of the anime staff in a show. Mind you, the plot points and characters is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the director's vision.

The Vegeta Gokuu fight in the Boo arc, for example is Yama'uchi's vision which is given more importance, not Toriyama's. The storyboard takes reference from the source material, but it does not copy paste it. The good creators don't do that. They are creative enough to expand or add something to it that makes it good and innovative. It happens in every show.

I'm aware of the heavy influence the anime staff has on a show, I just think the original creator's vision should usually come first.

[iAnimationLover_]

I think he's given a lot of time

How is working in these a lot of time? (Bold numbers are episodes he suprevised and was a top key animator in.)



56 63 65 66 69 72

Assistant supervisor in 66, and key animator in 69.
-
With episode 63 he had Tiger mask W's opening to work with.

------------

Thats totally a lot of time for animation!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think he's given a lot of time

How is working in these a lot of time? (Bold numbers are episodes he suprevised and was a top key animator in.)



56 63 65 66 69 72

Assistant supervisor in 66. and key animator in 69.
-
With episode 63 he had Tiger mask W's opening to work with.

------------

Thats totally a lot of time!

Hey! That's not a lot of time at all! (Someone had to...)

[iAnimationLover_]

Hey! That's not a lot of time at all! (Someone had to...)

I'm not sure if this is a joke i didnt get, or you didnt get that i was being sarcastic

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Hey! That's not a lot of time at all! (Someone had to...)

I'm not sure if this is a joke i didnt get, or you didnt get that i was being sarcastic

We'll leave it for everyone else to decide.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I'm aware of the heavy influence the anime staff has on a show, I just think the original creator's vision should usually come first.

They are giving his work importance by adapting it and by crediting him. Anime is being made, so that manga can sell. Toriyama himself leaves everything to the staff which implies that he trusts their vision. The creator has no problems.

Kishimoto Masashi, Oda Eiichiro, Arakawa Hiromu and every creator as far as I know does that. That's where we agree to disagree then. The staff's vision comes first.

[Mazingerdestro]

I think he's given a lot of time, but focuses in Quantity over Quality. Like, look at the credits. He's always a top Key Animator, even in his own supervised episode.

Like, some scenes are better, and on-model in episode 5 (also supervised by 1 guy).
While episode 72 had better schedule and also there's 2 Supervisor doing a lots Key Animation, but the case is some frames look derpier than episode 5.
I still do think that Tate is conservative for now.
But, it's still better for him Supervising without any Key Animations or the opposite.

Sorry that I brought cancer with me xD.

My idea regarding Tate is that he puts his effort in "uniqueness over quality". Basically, he wants something flashy instead of something aesthetically good. We must not forget that animators are artists and have priorities. Some focus on showing something good and some on revolutionizing their art.
Considering Tate, the guy had a good record in Z and my guess is that after so many years he wants to produce something even better. Of course his biggest enemy is the schedule but at the same time his worse enemy is himself. Watching his cuts reminds me of a guy that is not satisfied with himself and wants to expand his horizons and go to the next stage. It's like a B+ student that the teachers tell him that can go to A++ if he tries harder but he has no time to study until the exams so he goes wild and stays awake polishing his projects but in the end during the presentation he understands that going for the extra has affected his already good performance and instead of a B+ he ends up with a C+ (Quite extreme example but it makes sense right?). The fact that he corrects his work even if the schedule is bad, shows that he loves his art and he wants (even after the broadcast) to deliver something good.

Tate can go full force only when someone is heavily correcting him and some people in the staff should have get it by now. Leave Tate animate like crazy and have Tsuji correct the crap out of his weird faces. That would make him look great. Or at least that would be great if there was enough time.

Considering that Super is nowhere near ending, I can see Tate delivering something that can rival Shinda's work in the future.
Personally, I live for the day that we will see "Yamamuro-Tate" as a combo. They basically are opposite people in their work and they can cover each others' mistakes. Tate can focus on wild animation while Yamamuro can correct him and deliver on model madness. But still these are the wild dreams of a db fan that is not a "db purist"(...Jesus Christ purist...)

[Shreyas_Singh]

Super,while it continues the story of Dragon ball, is still its own thing and is not based off of anything. That should be enough excuse for the staff to deviate in terms of style. This is animation ,it can be its own thing and if people have a different taste they can read Toyotaro's manga where the drawings are similar to Toriyama's style and even the story is more compact with no fillers. I don't think Toriyama is draconian he trusts the staff and does not hesitate to criticize them if he's not satisfied. About Tate,I'm actually pretty tired of talking about that. I get it ,some people like his contributions,some don't and they all have various reasons for that.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Basically, he wants something flashy instead of something aesthetically good. We must not forget that animators are artists and have priorities. Some focus on showing something good and some on revolutionizing their art.

Two problems: Tate's art is good, at least to most of us who understand how it works, he only objections being those who nitpick random in-between frames or the conformity advocates. Secondly, Tate's art isn't flashy. When in motion, you don't even see the smears or the shots with absurd amounts of detail thrown in, the exception being when he's especially pressed for time.

Super,while it continues the story of Dragon ball, is still its own thing and is not based off of anything. That should be enough excuse for the staff to deviate in terms of style. This is animation ,it can be its own thing and if people have a different taste they can read Toyotaro's manga where the drawings are similar to Toriyama's style and even the story is more compact with no fillers. I don't think Toriyama is draconian he trusts the staff and does not hesitate to criticize them if he's not satisfied. About Tate,I'm actually pretty tired of talking about that. I get it ,some people like his contributions,some don't and they all have various reasons for that.

That's the same rhetoric as "If you don't like it, leave!", which as we know, doesn't work for a plethora of reasons. Many have worse problems with Toyotaro's manga than the anime, and I can hardly blame them. They criticise this show because they want this show to improve, even if their idea of improvement is wrong.

[Shreyas_Singh]

Basically, he wants something flashy instead of something aesthetically good. We must not forget that animators are artists and have priorities. Some focus on showing something good and some on revolutionizing their art.

Two problems: Tate's art is good, at least to most of us who understand how it works, he only objections being those who nitpick random in-between frames or the conformity advocates. Secondly, Tate's art isn't flashy. When in motion, you don't even see the smears or the shots with absurd amounts of detail thrown in, the exception being when he's especially pressed for time.

Super,while it continues the story of Dragon ball, is still its own thing and is not based off of anything. That should be enough excuse for the staff to deviate in terms of style. This is animation ,it can be its own thing and if people have a different taste they can read Toyotaro's manga where the drawings are similar to Toriyama's style and even the story is more compact with no fillers. I don't think Toriyama is draconian he trusts the staff and does not hesitate to criticize them if he's not satisfied. About Tate,I'm actually pretty tired of talking about that. I get it ,some people like his contributions,some don't and they all have various reasons for that.

That's the same rhetoric as "If you don't like it, leave!", which as we know, doesn't work for a plethora of reason.. Many have worse problems with Toyotaro's manga than the anime, and I can hardly blame them. They criticise this show because they want this show to improve, even if their idea of improvement is wrong.

Oh no no I didn't mean that at all,people should be free to enjoy or criticize what they want. But I guess my statement was poorly worded . I was suggesting an alternative in case the art was ruining their fun and if they enjoy Toriyamas art more. I agree most of these people want the show to improve the way they desire. Does anyone think that changing the character designer for the show will help anything? I mean for example Mamoru Hosoda films have simple character designs with little details like shading and it helps the animators a lot .

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Does anyone think that changing the character designer for the show will help anything?

I think it will and a lot of us, I mean the people who are interested in animation want it. While the lack of time and poor scheduling will still have a negative affect on the quality, if the designs are simple and smooth like Tate's or Hayashi's, it will be easier to animate and might attract more good talented staff to work on it.

Sadly, that's too good of a dream to be true cause it feels like Morishita(Toei chairman) and whoever the higher-ups are favor seniority or trust Yamamuro blindly.

[Avok]

Does anyone think that changing the character designer for the show will help anything?

I think it will and a lot of us, I mean the people who are interested in animation want it. While the lack of time and poor scheduling will still have a negative affect on the quality, if the designs are simple and smooth like Tate's or Hayashi's, it will be easier to animate and might attract more good talented staff to work on it I think.

Sadly, that's too good of a dream to be true cause it feels like Morishita(Toei chairman) and whoever the higher-ups are favor seniority or trust Yamamuro blindly.

I don't know if I would want the character designs to be like that.
Part of the appeal of Dragon Ball (atleast to me) is how detailed and strong the characters were portrayed. Soft and more simple designs work on a show like Pokémon (specially with the tonal shift of S&M) but I don't know if that's the direction Dragon Ball should go.

I think the Naruto route is the best one. In heavily animated episodes or scenes the characters are drawn much more rounder and with less shading to give the animators more freedom.

I still think the characters designs are awful as they are now (I absolutely hated future Trunks look) we need someone who can combine what made the old designs good in the first place and the needs and requeriments of the modern industry.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Dragon Ball needs to evolve and adapt to the changes the industry is going through if it wants to be good. The Naruto route is not a bad option but, Toei has enough in-house staff who are good designers, so it's not possible to get the Naruto designers. But, I agree that the aesthetic would work. It would be great actually. Anything that gives animators more freedom is good in my book.

Nakatsuru, maybe can mix the old and new and produce some pleasing stuff, but besides SS4 I never liked Nakatsuru's designs, so I don't trust him either. His designs are far better than modern Yamamuro though. I still think Hayashi or Tate are best bets.

[kinisking]

Future trunks us the first time I hated a yamamuro character design.

[Ajay]

I still think Hayashi and Tate are best bets.

While I'd personally be cool with them, I don't think they'd quite blend enough with what we've seen so far. That's assuming we're talking about Super, here?

I think someone like Koudai Watanabe would be a good compromise. He's got the detail for mass appeal, but as an animator who's great at blending between rigid and loose movement, I could see his designs being equally as versatile.

That said, I'd love a Tate-led special or something!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Future trunks us the first time I hated a yamamuro character design.

What didn't you like about it?

[Saikyo no Senshi]

While I'd personally be cool with them, I don't think they'd quite blend enough with what we've seen so far. That's assuming we're talking about Super, here?

I think someone like Koudai Watanabe would be a good compromise. He's got the detail for mass appeal, but as an animator who's great at blending between rigid and loose movement, I could see his designs being equally as versatile.

That said, I'd love a Tate-led special or something!

Oh, forgot about Watanabe. He's a great choice. I don't think he has been promoted to a character designer role as of yet, but he is capable and yeah his versatility as you said would keep everyone happy, even though I don't care if the masses are happy or not.

Same here, a Tate-led special would be awesome.