"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

Losing 1/10 of your strength by transforming is just out there since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan up to this point has been presented as a steady, fuel-effiect transformation.

It's even worse than that..

Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

So Vegeta lost 90% of his power just by showing off SSB??!!! [/quote]

Exactly how can showing off SSB reduce your power so much it makes 0 sense as why would he show it.

[Cetra]

No Divine Kaiouken is a shame. Then it also is apparently one of the anime team's ideas. Which I have no problem with.

The problem is that change made a huge plot hole regarding Beerus' power and the Kaioken might never show up again which will create more plot holes whenever Goku doesn't use it.

Which "change" do you mean? Are you talking about Toyotarou's interpretation being different from Toei's? If not I do not know what you mean (I mean that is also not a change as it is made by different people but I would get what you mean). Still, even that is hardly a "plothole" as we have no idea how power works and the show can make of it whatever it wants.

[ekrolo2]

I didn't really like Kaio-ken coming back, mostly because they felt the need to retcon Super Saiyan mastery to make Blue seem more special by comparison. Ideally speaking, I would've had Goku test out the limits of IT against Hit if I really had the power to make Toyotoaro or Toei do so.

[sintzu]

The anime has a good reason why Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

He isn't though, Vegeta just lost a lot of power from powering up twice in a row while in the anime they introduced a new form that'll probably never be used again which will cause plot holes whenever Goku loses and doesn't use it.

The anime also messed up Beerus' power and is making him a lot stronger than he is.

[namekiansaiyan]

No Divine Kaiouken is a shame. Then it also is apparently one of the anime team's ideas. Which I have no problem with.

The problem is that change made a huge plot hole regarding Beerus' power and the Kaioken might never show up again which will create more plot holes whenever Goku doesn't use it.

The reason for him not using kaioken again is to not have ki trouble again which makes sense.

[HeroR]

Reading these notes, it seems like everyone except Goku was hit with the nerf bat. Vegeta being weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku instead of being more or less equals at their max, Hit doesn't get better and just hold back traditionally and can barely retrain Goku, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is apparently an energy drain that takes 1/10 of your power and can't be used repeatedly like a normal Super Saiyan form.

I guess the huge energy drain would explain why they didn't used those forms to whack the entire U6 team, but it make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan sound only mildly better than Golden Freeza.

[Xeztin]

Do we have clarification that SSG is only stronger than Vegeta's SSJB when he is weakened? or that SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB being weakened or not?

Only when weakened. SSGSS Vegeta should be mostly on par with SSGSS Goku.

Hit has trouble Time-Stopping SSG Goku. Beerus asks why it managed to work on SSGSS Vegeta then, and Whis replies that's because Vegeta was weakened to ~10%. Later, Vegeta asks why Goku gave up when he had the match won. A few lines later, Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

This make's me feel a lot better! I'm guessing Vegeta doesn't have SSG because he didn't do the ritual, thanks a lot! I suppose SSJB isn't THAT much stronger than SSG, perhaps 2x at the least?

[Doctor.]

The anime and manga are two different continuities, being annoyed that Blue isn't a super efficient state in the manga where nothing of the sort about it was ever mentioned about it.

That's just an excuse. We all know that, even though the manga skipped F, it's gonna follow the movie. And even if it doesn't, the plot point of "Golden Freeza loses stamina quickly and both Vegeta and Goku catch on" is in the movie, Toriyama's script for the movie and the anime. It almost certainly happened in the manga continuity too, saying otherwise is just trying to defend its garbage writing.

[Neon Z]

Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. - DevlisCorpse on the matter.

I don't like this at all. Makes them complete fucking hypocrites for getting all snarky at Golden Freeza.

Blue using a lot of stamina is mentioned by Goku in the anime though, which is the reason he initially faces Hit in base, it just never comes into play, in spite of the line still being there. That same line was in the manga's previous chapter, and is used to explain why Goku fights in base in both, so it seems like it came straight from Toriyama. So, when one adds up everything, I think the manga's take on it makes more sense with the overall plot outline of the arc. In the anime, it seems like they just wanted to ignore the implications of that line in spite of keeping it.

Edit: Yeah, it somewhat clashes with Revival F, where Goku berates Freeza for not mastering his new form but the indication that it's a stamina draining form is still there even in the anime, even though it has no point there so far. I guess that might have been why Toyotaro made it so it's the transformation itself that drains a lot of energy, explaining why Freeza ran out of energy before Goku in the F movie.

[sintzu]

Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

In other words, Vegeta lost because of a bad decision while Toei had him lose because he was weaker.

I can't stress enough how happy I am about the manga cause without it we'd never know what was Toriyama's story and what was being added from Toei.

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

In other words, Vegeta lost because of a bad decision while Toei had him lose because he was weaker.

I can't stress enough how happy I am about the manga cause without it we'd never know what was Toriyama's story and what was being added from Toei.

The Vegeta fanboy is definitely coming out here. We also still do not know what is Toriyama's story

[emperior]

I didn't like this chapter, I would really like to know why Toriyama didn't give instructions for how the battle is supposed to play out, maybe it's not relevant for the future so he told Toei and Toyotaro to do whatever they wanted. But many things were identical to the anime (such as Goku hitting Hit on his cheek, their pre-battle dialogue etc...) so it seems strange he wouldn't give instructions on the battle and power scaling.
Manga Hit is a lot weaker than Anime counterpart, Goku too his weaker in the manga.

The anime was A LOT better in my opinion.

[Doctor.]

Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. - DevlisCorpse on the matter.

I don't like this at all. Makes them complete fucking hypocrites for getting all snarky at Golden Freeza.

Blue using a lot of stamina is mentioned by Goku in the anime though, which is the reason he initially faces Hit in base, it just never comes into play, in spite of the line still being there. Considering how that line was in both anime and manga, it seems like it came straight from Toriyama. So, when one adds up everything, I think the manga's take on it makes more sense. In the anime, it seems like they just wanted to ignore the implications of that line in spite of keeping it.

Blue can still use up a lot of stamina, that's not the issue here. The issue is that in the manga, Blue uses up a ridiculous amount of stamina, so much so that Vegeta loses 90% of his power just by transforming twice. That means they lose almost half their strength just by transforming. Even if Blue loses stamina in the anime, and it does, it doesn't at that speed, and it still makes sense that they call Freeza on it, since the stamina decrease isn't that huge.

[ArchedThunder]

Do we have clarification that SSG is only stronger than Vegeta's SSJB when he is weakened? or that SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB being weakened or not?

Only when weakened. SSGSS Vegeta should be mostly on par with SSGSS Goku.

Hit has trouble Time-Stopping SSG Goku. Beerus asks why it managed to work on SSGSS Vegeta then, and Whis replies that's because Vegeta was weakened to ~10%. Later, Vegeta asks why Goku gave up when he had the match won. A few lines later, Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

I REALLY dislike this, in the manga Hit is basically a throw away which in turn makes the whole arc feel entirely worthless. Hit actually being a threat in the anime was so much better.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I prefer this over the anime. Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue made no sense since day 1. Even going exclusively by the Super anime, SSG/B Goku & Vegeta aren't many times weaker than Beerus, yet Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Goku is still weaker than Beerus, and Hit can take multiple hits from him even though he is slightly weaker than normal SSB Goku... Just Kaio-ken x2 Super Saiyan Blue Goku should have been stronger than Whis, and strong enough to defeat Hit with a single hit.

As for the manga... so, there is no base/SS with SSG power here. Just regular base, regular SS, SSG, and SSB. I have the movies & the manga in the same continuity in my head-canon, so I believe that there are 2 base forms, a regular one & a SSG-powered one (turning into a regular SS doesn't make him stronger in that base form), and after Goku learned how to turn SSG on his own (he didn't know how he did it in BoG), he abandoned his SSG-powered base form since it's slightly weaker. So, Goku's forms are these:

Regular form
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2 [abandoned after BoG]
Super Saiyan 3 [abandoned after BoG]
Regular form with Super Saiyan God power [abandoned after FnF]
Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God power [abandoned after BoG]
Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue

[Grimlock]

From Super Saiyan God to Kaio-Ken is huge deal that we can't ignore, so we don't know which idea truly comes from Toriyama. And if that happened, then anything can come from Toei's or Toyotaro's idea.

[HeroR]

Blue using a lot of stamina is mentioned by Goku in the anime though, which is the reason he initially faces Hit in base, it just never comes into play, in spite of the line still being there. Considering how that line was in both anime and manga, it seems like it came straight from Toriyama. So, when one adds up everything, I think the manga's take on it makes more sense. In the anime, it seems like they just wanted to ignore the implications of that line in spite of keeping it.

Edit: Yeah, it somewhat clashes with Revival F, but the stamina line is still there even in the anime, even though it had no point there.

Losing stamina is one thing since Goku notes that transforming is tiresome when he was trying to master a normal Super Saiyan. Losing 1/10 of your total power per transformation is crazy and make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a really bad transformation that is only mildly better than Golden Frieza.

[Pannaliciour]

Do we have clarification that SSG is only stronger than Vegeta's SSJB when he is weakened? or that SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB being weakened or not?

Only when weakened. SSGSS Vegeta should be mostly on par with SSGSS Goku.

Hit has trouble Time-Stopping SSG Goku. Beerus asks why it managed to work on SSGSS Vegeta then, and Whis replies that's because Vegeta was weakened to ~10%. Later, Vegeta asks why Goku gave up when he had the match won. A few lines later, Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

This make's me feel a lot better! I'm guessing Vegeta doesn't have SSG because he didn't do the ritual, thanks a lot! I suppose SSJB isn't THAT much stronger than SSG, perhaps 2x at the least?

The manga contradicts itself. Previous chapter, Beerus asked Whis to reveal the secret, how to beat time-stop, to Goku. Whis said that Goku must find out by himself because it should be a good lesson for Goku. It can't be just not-losing-stamina-lesson?

[SaiyanGirl]

So, there went my hopes that we're going to see Hit before the tournament starts.

[Xeztin]

Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.

In other words, Vegeta lost because of a bad decision while Toei had him lose because he was weaker.

I can't stress enough how happy I am about the manga cause without it we'd never know what was Toriyama's story and what was being added from Toei.

Is it safe to say that SSJB is at least 2x stronger than SSG? Given that when SSJB is weakened, SSG is stronger? Basing that Vegeta was 1/10 his strength, how much stronger would you say SSJB is than SSG? (I'm not good with all these fractions)