Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

It's mind-boggling how people are trying to make sense out of every little aspect pertaining to power levels. Can you imagine how dull and rigid it would be if power levels really were restricted to a formula of some sort? I mean, attaching characters to a set number would not only hinder innovation, but make it exceptionally difficult to diversify battles and other scenes that even remotely involve strength.

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

Power levels were always restricted to a basic formula in DBZ. Power always wins unless you're USS Trunks and your speed is crap. They were perfectly consistent in DBZ so why wouldn't they be consistent in Super?

[supercat]

It's mind-boggling how people are trying to make sense out of every little aspect pertaining to power levels. Can you imagine how dull and rigid it would be if power levels really were restricted to a formula of some sort? I mean, attaching characters to a set number would not only hinder innovation, but make it exceptionally difficult to diversify battles and other scenes that even remotely involve strength.

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

Power levels were always restricted to a basic formula in DBZ. Power always wins unless you're USS Trunks and your speed is crap. They were perfectly consistent in DBZ so why wouldn't they be consistent in Super?

Perfectly consistent? Haha...

There was never once any mention of power levels after the Frieza arc nor any establishment of specific increases that characters were granted. Anything pertaining to power was vaguely expressed and the anime in particular lacked consistency when it came to this topic.

Just to name a few:

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

In any case, the inconsistencies aren't even that far-fetched; it's not like Yamcha or some other nobody was suddenly able to land a hit on Frieza or something. Both Piccolo and Trunks were established to be powerful fighters at one point; if the writers feel like reviving their prominence, then that's their choice. Whether or not that choice has valid reasoning behind it isn't really relevant, as long as the plot remains intriguing.

Again, it surprises me how so many people can't see the value and dynamics behind inconsistent power levels. I mean, what would a dull set of formulas even accomplish other than hinder creativity?

[Noah]

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

And how it's not? Please, dude... If they want to make a new series that is intended to be a continuation of the main series they must follow things that are already established and that is talking plot and power related.

People should not speculate that Piccolo or Mirai Trunks are in God-tier because the series implies that out of nowhere.

Just to name a few:

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

Filler.

[Chiki]

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

....They're all filler. LOL

We don't take anime filler seriously. In the anime, Yamcha is around SSJ3 Goku level in the Buu arc.

[supercat]

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

And how it's not? Please, dude... If they want to make a new series that is intended to be a continuation of the main series they must follow things that are already established and that is talking plot and power related.

People should not speculate that Piccolo or Mirai Trunks are in God-tier because the series implies that out of nowhere.

But that's just it. The only thing that has been consistent thus far is ironically the sporadic and inconsistent increases that characters have been spontaneously granted. I could list them all now, but I'll just assume you either watched the anime or read the manga and know what I'm referring to.

[supercat]

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

....They're all filler. LOL

We don't take anime filler seriously. In the anime, Yamcha is around SSJ3 Goku level in the Buu arc.

Jokes on you. Super follows the anime continuity. But nice try.

Oh, and even in the most filler of scenes, Yamcha will never be anything relevant.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's mind-boggling how people are trying to make sense out of every little aspect pertaining to power levels. Can you imagine how dull and rigid it would be if power levels really were restricted to a formula of some sort? I mean, attaching characters to a set number would not only hinder innovation, but make it exceptionally difficult to diversify battles and other scenes that even remotely involve strength.

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

Power levels were always restricted to a basic formula in DBZ. Power always wins unless you're USS Trunks and your speed is crap. They were perfectly consistent in DBZ so why wouldn't they be consistent in Super?

Perfectly consistent? Haha...

There was never once any mention of power levels after the Frieza arc nor any establishment of specific increases that characters were granted. Anything pertaining to power was vaguely expressed and the anime in particular lacked consistency when it came to this topic.

Just to name a few:

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

In any case, the inconsistencies aren't even that far-fetched; it's not like Yamcha or some other nobody was suddenly able to land a hit on Frieza or something. Both Piccolo and Trunks were established to be powerful fighters at one point; if the writers feel like reviving their prominence, then that's their choice. Whether or not that choice has valid reasoning behind it isn't really relevant, as long as the plot remains intriguing.

Again, it surprises me how so many people can't see the value and dynamics behind inconsistent power levels. I mean, what would a dull set of formulas even accomplish other than hinder creativity?

The anime was full of inconsistencies when it came to battle powers, but the manga is nearly perfect when it comes to battle powers.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Bulma having an encounter wtth Ginyu Frog is filler, but that doesn't change the fact that it carried over to Super.

Anyway, everything doesn't need an explanation. Sometimes a guy is made strong simply because the plot wants to make him strong.

[Chiki]

Paikuhan struggling against Base Goku, despite two-shotting Cell just a few episodes prior.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks respectively.
SSJ3 Goku holding his own against Buutenks.
SSJ Goku / Vegeta trouncing Super Buu.

....They're all filler. LOL

We don't take anime filler seriously. In the anime, Yamcha is around SSJ3 Goku level in the Buu arc.

Jokes on you. Super follows the anime continuity. But nice try.

Oh, and even in the most filler of scenes, Yamcha will never be anything relevant.

No it doesn't. Toriyama writes the outlines and he definitely does it according to the manga: he said so himself.

Akira Toriyama wrote:
Whis says this too, but I thought, “‘Super Saiyan God’… if you ask me, that’s an exaggeration.” (laughs) Anyway, I re-read the work for the first time in ages, and you know how Super Saiyan just keeps getting flashier? When it gets to “3”, the hair even gets longer. So, I decided to pare it down as much as possible.

He writes the outlines for the stories by reading the manga, not watching the anime. Toriyama is who decides what is canon. Therefore, you're wrong.

How is this irrelevant? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRErOvknMVg

You think it's interesting if Yamcha is as strong as SSJ3 Goku. I think it's just dumb and so does everyone else.

Bulma having an encounter wtth Ginyu Frog is filler, but that doesn't change the fact that it carried over to Super.

That wasn't a decision made by Toriyama himself though. Toei added that material based on RoF's outline. Super does have contradictions which isn't surprising, but Toriyama makes all the important calls in the end.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

[dbzfan7]

Wow...the canon debate is spread out like everywhere today. Did someone kick a black cat that then went through a ladder, after tipping over some salt?

[Chiki]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

Unless you want to accept Yamcha = SSJ3 Goku in terms of strength by accepting DBZ (and movie) filler, let's just stop considering DBZ (and movie) filler completely. Including Tagoma.

Not sure if Copy Vegeta is filler, though. Perhaps Toriyama himself approved that?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

Unless you want to accept Yamcha = SSJ3 Goku in terms of strength by accepting DBZ (and movie) filler, let's just stop considering DBZ (and movie) filler completely. Including Tagoma.

Not sure if Copy Vegeta is filler, though. Perhaps Toriyama himself approved that?

Toriyama supervising & approving something doesn't make it canon. He supervised & approved Episode of Bardock, yet he ignores it in his stories. Same with all 17 original movies.

[supercat]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

Unless you want to accept Yamcha = SSJ3 Goku in terms of strength by accepting DBZ (and movie) filler, let's just stop considering DBZ (and movie) filler completely. Including Tagoma.

Not sure if Copy Vegeta is filler, though. Perhaps Toriyama himself approved that?

Landing a hit or two on Olibu suddenly makes Yamcha SSJ3-tier? The former couldn't even defeat weighted Paikuhan, someone who struggled against Base Goku. So how does any of that put Yamcha even remotely close to an SSJ3?

What you consider filler is irrelevant, as scenes that were once deemed filler were mentioned.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

Unless you want to accept Yamcha = SSJ3 Goku in terms of strength by accepting DBZ (and movie) filler, let's just stop considering DBZ (and movie) filler completely. Including Tagoma.

Not sure if Copy Vegeta is filler, though. Perhaps Toriyama himself approved that?

Nah, bruh. Don't try to retcon my homie Tagoma out of ROF. His moment in the spotlight was too awesome for that. He went from being Zarbon tier to tearing off Piccolo's arm like a paper towel. He stays.

[Chiki]

Then it's important to distinguish which version of the story is being discussed.

Super's events of ROF are what we often discuss, so the Ginyu Frog stuff is canon here. You can't discuss Tagoma and separate Ginyu Frog from the story.

Unless you want to accept Yamcha = SSJ3 Goku in terms of strength by accepting DBZ (and movie) filler, let's just stop considering DBZ (and movie) filler completely. Including Tagoma.

Not sure if Copy Vegeta is filler, though. Perhaps Toriyama himself approved that?

Landing a hit or two on Olibu suddenly makes Yamcha SSJ3-tier? The former couldn't even defeat weighted Paikuhan, someone who struggled against Base Goku. So how does any of that put Yamcha even remotely close to an SSJ3?

What you consider filler is irrelevant, as scenes that were once deemed filler were mentioned.

It was a joke, but Yamcha is definitely at least FPSSJ tier if he can beat Olibu and Gorilla at the same time like they're absolutely nothing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRErOvknMVg

Okay Mr. I think Yamcha is SSJ level.

[supercat]

That didn't help support your argument in any shape or form, as a nobody like Yamcha trumping another nobody doesn't really affect the story or any line of continuity. If anything, it just supports the notion that power levels have not been consistent throughout the anime, and thus a similar concept can be expected from anything that follows.

If we really want to delve into every minuscule aspect of that brief scuffle (if I could even call it that), Yamcha connecting a few hits on Olibu doesn't even establish whether or not the former was Frieza (Namek) tier, as someone who struggled against Base Goku was able to knock the latter out of the ring with one hit.

[VegettoEX]

Jokes on you. Super follows the anime continuity. But nice try.

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[Speedster]

The anime was full of inconsistencies when it came to battle powers, but the manga is nearly perfect when it comes to battle powers.

And to what percentage exactly does this "nearly perfect", in your opinion, translates into? 99% of the time? 95% of the time? 90%? And what exactly do yo consider consistency in battle powers when there weren't any numerical values to go by to begin with? Feats? Training results? Power rankings like if A>B and A>C then B must be >C?

In any case whatever your metric is I can literally point you out dozens of inconsistencies to prove you that the manga it is very far and away from being "nearly perfect" when it comes to anything power-related. Better than the anime, probably yes, nearly a masterpiece, nowhere near. And as for the problems many people have with the anime most of them have their roots to the manga - just the filler highlighted these issues whenever Toriyama, after writing himself into the corner, made his usual camouflaged U-turn.

[Noah]

In any case whatever your metric is I can literally point you out dozens of inconsistencies to prove you that the manga it is very far and away from being "nearly perfect" when it comes to anything power-related. Better than the anime, probably yes, nearly a masterpiece, nowhere near.

I would like to see you try.