Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[JJ94]

Salagir's theory on SSJ3 makes no sense to me.

I agree, if he said that if you put more energy into super Saiyan 3 form the less it will hold out then it would make more sense. Like when Goku tried to power up to fight kid buu.

If Salagir's theory makes sense then I believe that Vegeto shouldn't even hold the form for a second.

[Rocketman]

Easy on the fourth wall there, Vegetto.

[rereboy]

Salagir's theory on SSJ3 makes no sense to me.

I agree, if he said that if you put more energy into super Saiyan 3 form the less it will hold out then it would make more sense. Like when Goku tried to power up to fight kid buu.

If Salagir's theory makes sense then I believe that Vegeto shouldn't even hold the form for a second.

He just held the form long enough to launch the attack. Couldn`t have been more than a few seconds. He didn`t even try to do anything else besides that because he knew he would quickly lose the form.
The two Gotenks fought each other while Goku and Vegeta talked to each other. Since the action cut from them to Goku and Vegeta, and since there are several sound effects of several blows between them, in real time they could have fought for a minute or two. In that aspect its somewhat consistent.

As for Salagir`s theory, well, there is nothing that contradicts it in the manga. The only things that are shown regarding SSJ3 is that Gotenks can only hold it for 5 minutes, after which it even cancels his fusion as stated by Trunks, and that Goku can not hold the form for long or power it up while being alive (and even when he was dead, it was so extreme that it even shortened the time Goku could remain on Earth).

The difficulties in holding the form are obvious in the manga. But nothing is stated regarding the power of the fighter, as in knowing if a more powerful fighter would be able to hold the form longer, the same amount of time or an even shorter amount of time. The only thing that is shown in this regard is that a dead fighter can hold it longer, which doesn`t necessarily have anything to do with power.

Obviously Salagir is adding his own twist to the form, but its not flat out wrong according to the manga. We might not agree with it, personally I don`t know if I would make the form like that if I was writing the story, but hey, like I said, there is nothing saying its wrong. So its OK. I`m fine with new ideas on old ones if they don`t contradict the canon material. It makes matters more interesting. And an higher handicap on the SSJ3 form for the strongest fighters can be an interesting idea if executed properly. We will see if that is the case.

Easy on the fourth wall there, Vegetto.

yeah . Its the second time they do this. The first time was with Piccolo. It looks weird but its somewhat funny.

And that Scarz... Naughty, naughty...

[Great Saiyaman I]

Okay, I'm the dumb guy who doesn't get the joke. What did Scarz do?

[rereboy]

Okay, I'm the dumb guy who doesn't get the joke. What did Scarz do?

Nothing. Rocketman was just messing with her.

Btw, I liked one comment of the english section of the DBM site about this page, so I´ll quote it here:

About this SSJ3 weak point, Salagir isn't really creating anything new like some of you are thinking. He is just touching in one weakness that already existed in the original and exploring it to make the battles more difficult to foresee.
Like it was explained a lot of times, Salagir don't want all the fights being solved by simple "powering up to the next level". So he make sure those "broken" power ups have their limitations.
Bra's SS2 puts her close to Vegeto's SSJ power level, but since she has no control, it actually made things worse for the good guys.
Vegeto's SS3 was freaking amazing and defeated the Legendary Cheater, but lasted only a few moments and erased Vegeto's energy. And because of that in the next conflict against U4 Buu he was much weaker.
Gotenks reckless used something that should have been a last resourse... stupid kids!

For those who keep crying over the original manga, you should remember that Toriyama used ideas like that a lot of times, like when he introduced Kaioken, the buffed SSJ transformation and SSJ3. They were all great power ups that had draw backs. In most cases, later these draw backs were controled or erased when a better choice was discouvered.
But SSJ3's draw back never had an official solution since the manga ended soon after the Buu's arc.
Many fans think that it should be solved with more trainning and mastering on that form, but instead, Salagir decided to explore it further!
The explanation that the SSJ3 runs even more energy as stronger you gets makes sense and actually makes the transformation something more special as it becomes something more complex and difficult to use.

It also gives more credit to the other SSJ transformations that while they don't have so much power, they are much more balanced and reliable.

His english isn`t very good but he did mention some valid points.

[goku the krump dancer]

Theres nothing wrong with Salagir elaborating on weaknesses and such but what I still don't understand is how could getting stronger result in more power being used in SSJ3? Shouldn't it be the stronger you get, the more mastery you get in the form.

[rereboy]

Theres nothing wrong with Salagir elaborating on weaknesses and such but what I still don't understand is how could getting stronger result in more power being used in SSJ3? Shouldn't it be the stronger you get, the more mastery you get in the form.

Think of it this way: its like the SSJ grade 3 that Trunks used.

The more power Trunks put into the form, the slower he became because his muscles would increase accordingly. Or in other words, the form had a drawback and the stronger the form would be, the bigger the drawback would also get (in this case, the loss of speed).

And SSJ3, according to Salagir, is the same thing, except it doesn`t make you slower. Instead, the more power you put into the form, the quicker the form will consume your reserves, resulting in losing the form and most of the fighter`s power faster.

Basically, SSJ3 can not be mastered (at least not by the living), and its inherently flawed like SSJ grade 3 was. And the stronger the form, the bigger its flaw becomes. Therefore, a stronger SSJ grade 3 will be slower than a weaker SSJ grade 3 and a stronger SSJ3 will lose the form more quickly than a weaker SSJ3.

The only difference is that the drawback is not the loss of speed, its the loss of energy after a specific time (and the ability to maintain the form with it).

And the stronger the form the bigger the drawback (for both cases).

[Scarz]

Easy on the fourth wall there, Vegetto.
[SNIP]

What did I do?!

Nothing. Rocketman was just messing with her.

Oh, of course.

And SSJ3, according to Salagir, is the same thing, except it doesn`t make you slower. Instead, the more power you put into the form, the quicker the form will consume your reserves, resulting in losing the form and most of the fighter`s power faster.

I was a little disappointed that Gotenks couldn't hold SSJ3 for long and I didn't like Salagir explanation but after reading your comment about how flawed SSJ3 is it's starting to make a lot more sense to me.

[rereboy]

Glad to be helpful. I believe that what I stated was what Salagir intended.

[Metrite]

I hope they don't just both end up disqualified. I'm still hoping for a new attack or something to further show how Gotenks has "matured". The poses were good, but the fight was just too short and not "Gotenks enough".

If he is really saying that ssj3 just outright lasts less and less time regardless of circumstances just from the person being stronger, I'm inclined to agree that it feels like another liberty being taken that doesn't really seem to quite go along with the way things were in the original story. But that's nothing compared to Salagir saying the potaras can't really fuse any two people and actually only worked for Goku and Vegeta because they were specially altered to work just for them. That's just plain wrong.

[rereboy]

Well, if one of them wins, one Gotenks will move on to fight again and hopefully it will be a better fight or several more.

I had high hopes for this fight once I learned who the fighters were, but it turned out to be uninteresting because they just ended up doing the same exact thing. I liked the concept but there isn`t much more to say about it besides "they do the same thing everytime, with the same effect".

So, they are probably saving one of the Gotenks for a more interesting fight later on. This fight only served the purpose of showing us the concept of them repeating the same thing each time because they are too similar, and it also served the purpose of introducing the characteristics of the SSJ3 form within DBM (and also commenting Gotenks and his evolution in general).

[Senzu_Bean]

Does anyone know what font they use for the text?

[dbgtFO]

Does anyone know what font they use for the text?

It's Komita http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/faq.html

Note, that they aren't disqualified, because the Vargas don't know, that Goten and Trunks make up Gotenks.

[TonyTheTiger]

Ha. I think I know what's going to happen. The four are going to fight and one of the pair from U18 is going to win and the other from U16 will win. So the Goten/Trunks from U18 and the Goten/Trunks from U16 will have to fuse into Gotenks in the next round.

[rereboy]

Its true that they don`t know that Gotenks is made from two persons... But even if they did, technically, I don`t think that what they did is against the rules.

The rules only state that a single fighter/being must enter the ring and fight alone, but they don`t state that a fighter can`t slit himself into two bodies or two beings.

If a fighter carried with him a concealed fighter to the ring, that would be cheating and against the rules, since two fighters entered the ring instead of one and the fighter called is not fighting alone, he is receiving outside help... But Gotenks entered alone into the ring and Trunks and Goten are still technically Gotenks even though split in two bodies. They are him. They are not Gotenks plus outside help. They are simply Gotenks split in two bodies.

[Senzu_Bean]

I still would like to know where the idea of SSJ3 reducing fusion time come from.

[rereboy]

I still would like to know where the idea of SSJ3 reducing fusion time come from.

In the manga, just before Goten and Trunks face Super Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time and right after they finish training for the fight, they talk about SSJ3 and Trunks states that it`s weakness is time since they could only hold it for a short period of time and that it even canceled out their fusion afterwards.
Goten then replies that the time that they can hold the form is more than enough to kill Super Buu, but Trunks says it would be uncool to just kill him right away so they agree to save the SSJ3 for the last minutes of the fight to be cooler.

As you can see, its stated in the manga that the SSJ3 interferes with the duration of the fusion since Trunks states that it even canceled out their fusion.

[Senzu_Bean]

In the manga, just before Goten and Trunks face Super Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time and right after they finish training for the fight, they talk about SSJ3 and Trunks states that it`s weakness is time since they could only hold it for a short period of time and that it even canceled out their fusion afterwards.

Really?! I thought Trunks only mentions the 5 minutes weakness and it canceling the fusion are bad translations. It even isn't something we actually get to see later.

[Scarz]

Ha. I think I know what's going to happen. The four are going to fight and one of the pair from U18 is going to win and the other from U16 will win. So the Goten/Trunks from U18 and the Goten/Trunks from U16 will have to fuse into Gotenks in the next round.

Yeah, I bet this will happen too. If Goten and Trunks have to continue to fight there doubles that will cause some confusion. Trunks from U16 might attack Goten from the same universe during the fight by mistake. Now that would be hilarious.

[rereboy]

In the manga, just before Goten and Trunks face Super Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time and right after they finish training for the fight, they talk about SSJ3 and Trunks states that it`s weakness is time since they could only hold it for a short period of time and that it even canceled out their fusion afterwards.

Really?! I thought Trunks only mentions the 5 minutes weakness and it canceling the fusion are bad translations. It even isn't something we actually get to see later.

Yeah. Its just like that in the Viz translation and I believe its accurate. After all, even GT used that idea to make Gogeta unfuse early.

Of course, when Gotenks actually fought Super Buu, its unknown if his fusion gave out because the 30 minutes passed or because he couldn`t hold his SSJ3 anymore and it canceled the fusion.