Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Very interesting but I don't think I could make SSJ3 Gotenks that low to use the figure.

[Darkron2151]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Is this strictly for Super Anime or is it for everything to do with ROF (movie, anime, manga, etc.)?

[JoeCapricorn]

The kanji used is "Oku" which is 1,0000,0000 (4 zeroes intentional), so wouldn't 53 "Oku" be 5,300,000,000?

Then again, I think he is saying "go juu san oku desu"

But my Japanese knowledge is sparse at best!

[RandomGuy96]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Is this strictly for Super Anime or is it for everything to do with ROF (movie, anime, manga, etc.)?

Who knows? It's a clip meant to promote a theme park attraction.

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Very interesting but I don't think I could make SSJ3 Gotenks that low to use the figure.

You can always do what I do, and either assume either fusions get different multipliers (based on SS Gotenks vs Fat Buu, and Buff Buu simply being Pure Buu + South Kaioshin) or that SS Gotenks is 1/4 as strong as SS3 Gotenks because he seemed to skip SS2 (SS3 is x4 the previous form, not just x8 SS).

[LowRyder2005]

53 billions... Well, curiously, as unofficial-ish as it may be, that was already what I had.
It actually fits pretty well. For comparison, Buuhan would be around a 70 in the anime purest interpretation (if you implement the "Goku is the strongest" axiom and the, more or less realistical, "Base Goku < Freeza" argument).

Super Saiyan Goku: 125 (turns Super Saiyan just to encourage Frost to show him his strongest form, and expects Frost's full power to be around his)
Super Saiyan Goku: 40 (vs. Frost = around 33%)
Final Form Frost: 28
Super Saiyan Cabbe: 25
Base Goku: 2.5
Assault Form Frost: 2.25
Piccolo: 0.98 (thinks he'd have a better fight against an inferior and tired form of Frost, this should put him nearer First Form than Assault)
First Form Frost: 0.75
Base Cabbe: 0.5 ("too weak to participate" according to Vegeta and considers himself inferior to probably First Form Frost)

Super Saiyan Goku: 110
ROF Freeza: 53
Base Goku (powered-up): 55
Base Goku (normal): 2.2

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 7
First Form Freeza: 3
SS Gohan (normal): 1.5
Piccolo: 0.8

Everything can work even without power inflation, but you basically have to lowball SS3 Gotenks back to Super Perfect Cell levels. It may be possible if they did not train at all (plus, by digging around in the Buu Saga, there's enough evidence to put Goten and Trunks a lot weaker than their fathers anyway) in all those years.

With Super Saiyan Goku needing Super Saiyan to step up to Trunks, the implications about Piccolo and so on, and with both who realistically shouldn't be above Super Saiyan 3, the "Gotenks is weaker/ has been nerfed" argument has been strenghtened, in my eyes. I do think that, 53 billions or whatever, we'll still have to abandon the "Goku uses his lesser forms in a perfectly efficient/rational way" if we want to wrap our head around the anime, but that has more to do with plot-induced silliness than with the intended power-scaling.

EDIT: Oh, never mind, it should work even if you have Gotenks just slightly weaker than usual. Stronger than regular base, but not strong enough to force the Base Saiyans to power up to their "ROF Base level" (still following the notion that Super Saiyan Gotenks > First Form Freeza):

Super Saiyan Goku: 110
ROF Freeza: 53
Base Goku (powered-up): 55
Base Goku (normal): 2.2

SS Gotenks: 3.5
First Form Freeza: 3
SS Gohan (normal): 1.5
Piccolo: 0.8

Super Saiyan Vegeta: 130 (Vegeta's "even stronger than before")
Copy-Vegeta (full base power/ used vs. Goku): 65
Base Goku (powered-up): 65
Copy-Vegeta (vs. Gotenks): 40
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 28

[ZombieVito]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Very interesting but I don't think I could make SSJ3 Gotenks that low to use the figure.

You can always do what I do, and either assume either fusions get different multipliers (based on SS Gotenks vs Fat Buu, and Buff Buu simply being Pure Buu + South Kaioshin) or that SS Gotenks is 1/4 as strong as SS3 Gotenks because he seemed to skip SS2 (SS3 is x4 the previous form, not just x8 SS).

I'm personally not OK with those. He should get the SSJ2 boost.

About SSJ2 Gotenks:

Both the Daizenshuu and Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files note that Gotenks can transform into a Super Saiyan 2. Although briefly shown in the manga and anime series, Gotenks never uses the form in combat, instead he bypasses it to ascend to Super Saiyan 3.

[RandomGuy96]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

[Desassina]

Well, does Oob need to have access to Boo's power already? Their base could be lower or higher, but I like the idea of it sitting in between SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, does Oob need to have access to Boo's power already?

Goku commented "you're just as amazing as I thought you'd be", so that seems to be the implication.

Their base could be lower or higher, but I like the idea of it sitting in between SSJ2 and SSJ3.

The reason I brought up the movies is because of the chain of:

Piccolo < Sashimi << SS Gohan <<< 1st form Freeza <<< 4th form Freeza < base Goku

Yet at the same time, according to the "Super" manga, the base =< SSG theory is bunk:

base <<<< SS <<< SSG < SSB

So their base forms should be much stronger than SS Gohan and their previous base forms, but nowhere near SSG level (also, in the manga that level is implied to be below Mr. Buu, since Piccolo appears to be stronger than their base forms, and iirc that scene where they denigrate Piccolo compared to Buu still exists). If these three things are all consistent with each other (makes sense, they all seem to be the closest to Toriyama's vision), then it would actually make a lot of sense for their bases to be between SS2 and SS3 level.

[ekrolo2]

I've taken a stab at the Super manga's power levels for the Battle of Gods arc, I don't know if I should count the F manga for a hypothetical U6 tournament list.

Spoiler:

Pre-Goku vs Beerus:

Goku - 100 million (Base Form)
- 5 billion (Super Saiyan)
- 10 billion (Super Saiyan 2)
- 40 billion (Super Saiyan 3)

Every version of the arc has Beerus say Base Goku can't beat Freeza, except this one. In-fact, Beerus only comments on Goku being able to defeat Freeza when he launches a barrage at him as a Super Saiyan 2! However, given how well Piccolo fares against Frost, an opponent against Vegeta required Super Saiyan in order to defeat, I'm going to go out on a limp and assume that Base Saiyan's aren't stronger than him still.

Vegeta - 95 million (Base Form)
- 4.75 billion (Super Saiyan)
- 9.5 billion (Super Saiyan 2)
- 19 billion (Rageta!)

Unlike the film where Vegeta's touted as superior to Goku or the TV show where he's strong enough to make Beerus use 10%, the only comment about Vegeta's power is Krillin saying "When did Vegeta get this strong?! You may choose to interpret this as him being better than Gotenks and Gohan who get their asses kicked but I choose to think this is Krillin merely commenting on how strong Vegeta's gotten in-comparison to his usual power. Why a x2 boost? I see his mutated SSJ2 as him somewhat forcing himself into SS3 but due to him not being dead or a hybrid, he can't properly get there.

Gohan - 650 billion (Ultimate), Irrelevant (real power)

Gotenks - 400 billion (Super Saiyan 3)

Piccolo - 2.5 billion (or roughly on par with Cell Games Goku)

Everyone else (except Satan) - honestly, who gives a flying fuck?

Goku vs Beerus:

Super Saiyan God Goku - 10 trillion (or a 1 on the God scale, stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto, but inferior to his Super Saiyan 3. God is a x100 000 Base increase)
- 100 million (Base Form)

Beerus - 15 trillion (or a 1.5 on the God scale)
- 100 trillion (maximum power)

Whis - 150 trillion

Why put Goku so low? Well, Toyotaro is clearly playing up Goku and Vegeta as still having a ways to go with the God power given how Blue functions later on in the tournament arc. Goku himself says he's merely scratching the surface so making him a 1 to Beerus' 10 feels like a good way to showcase this. Why not put Goku's base form as stronger now? Well, as I said earlier, Piccolo isn't shown to train or have any big increase in strength yet nearly defeats Frost, a an opponent Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to defeat. This can only make sense if Goku and Vegeta don't really have a vast increase in their base forms. Further, in what little we know of Toyotaro's version of the F arc, the narrator mentions that Goku and Vegeta absolutely needed to work together to beat Golden Freeza, signaling that Toyotaro is clearly making manga Goku & Vegeta much weaker than their animated counterparts.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

Why would base Goku be at SS3 level? The manga wasn't written with BoG/FnF/Super in mind, base Goku should still be at least below Namek arc Freeza. Goku believed that Oob may be strong enough to beat him & wanted to be at full strength against him, but that was because he was expecting Oob to be a trained fighter, since he thought that he was suppressing his power. Turns out that even though Oob really was the amazing guy he expected him to be, meaning that he had the potential to rival Goku, it turns out that he had never trained in his life before, so he needs training to reach that level first.

The Super manga retcons SSG from the movies, and doesn't have Goku & Vegeta absorbing any of its power in their base & SS forms. So you are right, it remains consistent with the original manga.

[ekrolo2]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

Why would base Goku be at SS3 level? The manga wasn't written with BoG/FnF/Super in mind, base Goku should still be at least below Namek arc Freeza. Goku believed that Oob may be strong enough to beat him & wanted to be at full strength against him, but that was because he was expecting Oob to be a trained fighter, since he thought that he was suppressing his power. Turns out that even though Oob really was the amazing guy he expected him to be, meaning that he had the potential to rival Goku, it turns out that he had never trained in his life before, so he needs training to reach that level first.

The Super manga retcons SSG from the movies, and doesn't have Goku & Vegeta absorbing any of its power in their base & SS forms. So you are right, it remains consistent with the original manga.

The idea comes from people lumping the F manga together with the Super one when they're not compatible as Piccolo, who isn't any stronger than before, is still above Base Saiyan's as evidenced by the Frost fight.

Personally, I don't see Base Saiyan's leaving Freeza's level and creeping into the lower Android tier until after the 3 year in the ROSAT.

[Bullza]

base Goku should still be at least below Namek arc Freeza

That doesn't make any sense at all. Base Goku was able to hurt Hit and withstand a punch from him. Hit was then later able to withstand attacks from Super Saiyan God Goku before he powered up. If he can take the same punches that threatened to destroy the universe then why is he getting wobbled by Base Goku?

Afterall SSJ3 Goku could not even touch a supressed Beerus and was knocked flying with a finger flick and he wasn't as strong as SSJG at that point because he said after he fought SSJG Goku that he hadn't exerted that much strength in ages. Not to mention that when Vegeta snapped and went Super Saiyan he knocked Beerus around briefly whereas Hit easily effortlessly beat SSJB Vegeta at 10% which you say is stronger than Super Saiyan.

No the only way it makes any sense is if it was like what happened in the Battle of Gods movie where even though Beerus was strong enough to be able to keep up with and withstand SSJG Goku's attacks he was still able to be harmed by Base Goku who caught by surprise because there wasn't such a huge gap between forms.

is still above Base Saiyan's as evidenced by the Frost fight.

There wasn't really any evidence to say that. There's no saying the Base Saiyans couldn't have put up a much better fight against Frost than what Piccolo did.

[ekrolo2]

base Goku should still be at least below Namek arc Freeza

That doesn't make any sense at all. Base Goku was able to hurt Hit and withstand a punch from him. Hit was then later able to withstand attacks from Super Saiyan God Goku before he powered up. If he can take the same punches that threatened to destroy the universe then why is he getting wobbled by Base Goku?

Afterall SSJ3 Goku could not even touch a supressed Beerus and was knocked flying with a finger flick and he wasn't as strong as SSJG at that point because he said after he fought SSJG Goku that he hadn't exerted that much strength in ages. Not to mention that when Vegeta snapped and went Super Saiyan he knocked Beerus around briefly whereas Hit easily effortlessly beat SSJB Vegeta at 10% which you say is stronger than Super Saiyan.

No the only way it makes any sense is if it was like what happened in the Battle of Gods movie where even though Beerus was strong enough to be able to keep up with and withstand SSJG Goku's attacks he was still able to be harmed by Base Goku who caught by surprise because there wasn't such a huge gap between forms.

is still above Base Saiyan's as evidenced by the Frost fight.

There wasn't really any evidence to say that. There's no saying the Base Saiyans couldn't have put up a much better fight against Frost than what Piccolo did.

Wasn't Goku landing a Hit more of combination of Goku's figuring out how Hit's technique works, his reflexes and Hit being surprised by the fact (and holding back not to kill Base Goku) than anything else? I mean, Super Saiyan Goku is physically as strong Hit in the manga yet his time leap/speed force Goku to use much more powerful forms to beat him. So clearly, the Hit battle operates and more varied factors than the usual "x guy has bigger PL than y guy, so x guy wins by default!" logic.

[apex_pretador]

IN RESPONSE TO LAST FEW PAGES:
Manga & Anime have essentially the same power scaling, with very minor changes.

Depending on what you mean by "minor changes", I disagree. Base Saiyans in the anime, implied to be above SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Saiyans in the manga, implied to be weaker than SSJ2.
That's pretty significant right there, plus there's more.

- I meant beerus being over 10x stronger than SSG is still in the manga, hit being 10x of SSB vegeta, etc.

- Base saiyans have not been hinted to be weaker than SS2 in the manga, their PL is arbitrary as of now.

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Very interesting but I don't think I could make SSJ3 Gotenks that low to use the figure.

How official this is? Usable in PL lists? 100 quintillion?

The kanji used is "Oku" which is 1,0000,0000 (4 zeroes intentional), so wouldn't 53 "Oku" be 5,300,000,000?

Then again, I think he is saying "go juu san oku desu"

But my Japanese knowledge is sparse at best!

It'd be more suited for first form freeza than final form, as my numbers have SS2 kid gohan at 1.9 billion.

[ekrolo2]

IN RESPONSE TO LAST FEW PAGES:
Manga & Anime have essentially the same power scaling, with very minor changes.

Depending on what you mean by "minor changes", I disagree. Base Saiyans in the anime, implied to be above SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Saiyans in the manga, implied to be weaker than SSJ2.
That's pretty significant right there, plus there's more.

- I meant beerus being over 10x stronger than SSG is still in the manga, hit being 10x of SSB vegeta, etc.

- Base saiyans have not been hinted to be weaker than SS2 in the manga, their PL is arbitrary as of now.

They're weaker than Piccolo, who never reached SS2 as nothing in the manga says or shows him training or making any kind of significant strength gains. The fact Vegeta needed SS to beat a weakened & tired Frost who Piccolo, someone regarded even by himself as fodder says something about their base strength.

[Bullza]

Wasn't Goku landing a Hit more of combination of Goku's figuring out how Hit's technique works, his reflexes and Hit being surprised by the fact (and holding back not to kill Base Goku) than anything else?

Whether he was pulling his punches or not it wouldn't affect that Base Goku did punch him in his face and it made Hit bleed and wobbled him. Android 16 punched Semi Perfect Cell in his face and he didn't budge at all, so how could someone weaker than Frieza hurt someone strong enough to tangle with Super Saiyan God?

If Base Goku was at regular levels and he can hurt Hit with his punches then Hit would have to be weaker than Semi Perfect Cell but that obviously isn't right because he had the upperhand over Super Saiyan Goku so Hit should be at least as strong as Perfect Cell but Perfect Cell didn't budge when Super Vegeta kicked him in the neck and he'd be drastically stronger than Base Goku.

And if Hit was that strong then shouldn't just a flick or a little chop be more than enough to lay Base Goku out?

Nothing about all this makes sense assuming that they are at regular levels. If it's how it's presented in the BoG movie though then it makes perfect sense because the same kind of thing happened already.

[ekrolo2]

Wasn't Goku landing a Hit more of combination of Goku's figuring out how Hit's technique works, his reflexes and Hit being surprised by the fact (and holding back not to kill Base Goku) than anything else?

Whether he was pulling his punches or not it wouldn't affect that Base Goku did punch him in his face and it made Hit bleed and wobbled him. Android 16 punched Semi Perfect Cell in his face and he didn't budge at all, so how could someone weaker than Frieza hurt someone strong enough to tangle with Super Saiyan God?

If Base Goku was at regular levels and he can hurt Hit with his punches then Hit would have to be weaker than Semi Perfect Cell but that obviously isn't right because he had the upperhand over Super Saiyan Goku so Hit should be at least as strong as Perfect Cell but Perfect Cell didn't budge when Super Vegeta kicked him in the neck and he'd be drastically stronger than Base Goku.

And if Hit was that strong then shouldn't just a flick or a little chop be more than enough to lay Base Goku out?

Nothing about all this makes sense assuming that they are at regular levels. If it's how it's presented in the BoG movie though then it makes perfect sense because the same kind of thing happened already.

It would effect him if the guy powered down. Remember, Hit apparently has trouble fighting if he can't outright kill someone as is his natural instinct in battle. Sensing how weak Base Goku is, he'd hold back considerably to avoid accidentally killing him and royally pissing Champa off for costing him the tournament.

In such a held back state, Goku would be able to land a hit on him and make him wobble and take him by surprise.

As for the situations you stated, Cell is better at controlling his power as he can (apparently) use his top speed without powering up anything else. After the trouble 16 and Vegeta gave him, him tanking their punches is him proving a point: you're worthless shit against me and here's why.

Its no different then how fighters constantly pull their punches to avoid outright killing someone. Here's a Cell example: Goku, he could murder Goku if he wanted to in an instant like everyone else but its not in his interest so he's holding back. Allowing Goku, a fighter far inferior to him a chance to take him on. Same thing with Hit, except Hit's trying not to kill Goku in his Base form, hence why he's powered down substantially.

[Alruneia]

The kanji used is "Oku" which is 1,0000,0000 (4 zeroes intentional), so wouldn't 53 "Oku" be 5,300,000,000?

Then again, I think he is saying "go juu san oku desu"

But my Japanese knowledge is sparse at best!

It'd be more suited for first form freeza than final form, as my numbers have SS2 kid gohan at 1.9 billion.

I agree. After all, the 530,000 number that this new power level is a play on was Freeza's power level in his first form.
This statement (though not very important) implies that Freeza got ten thousand times stronger, no? I don't see a problem with that, honestly. According to my numbers it should place him above Good Buu, which is the only thing that might be weird.

Also, funny that you put SSJ2 Teen Gohan at 1.9 billion. On my list he's 2.1 billion. Usually I see way bigger numbers, so it's fun to see someone who pretty much agrees with me.

[Bullza]

It would effect him if the guy powered down.

Well we know he was supressed but he didn't power up until midway through fighting Super Saiyan God. There's still no translations that I know of but it looks as though he's just at the same level from fighting SSJB Vegeta up until he clearly powers up. When Goku turns Super Saiyan you see him take the fight more seriously because he gets into a proper stance whereas against SSJB Vegeta and Base Goku he just has his hands in his pockets but that wouldn't change the durability of his face.

You could say he was perhaps pulling his punch so not to kill Goku but his face wouldn't be any tougher between being punched by Base Goku and being punched by Super Saiyan God Goku.