Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

That's why he said roughly equal. What Tenshinhan couldn't match in endurance, he could match and surpass in speed.

[ZombieVito]

I wouldn't use roughly though. Goku was clearly superior in strength and Tenshinhan in speed.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If Tenshinhan was over 5 years of training behind a Goku who's far inferior to weighted Goku, I don't see Tenshinhan being able to knock weighted Goku around as easily as he did. You'd think if the gap was that big Goku would tank all of Tenshinhan's hits.

[Captain Space]

Chapter: 176, P14.6-7
Context: as Goku fights Tenshinhan
Announcer: “As-is, both contestants are about even! Neither one is giving an inch!”
Kame-sennin: “No, they’re not even. Even though he’s been flying around so much, Goku isn’t out of breath, not even a little bit. Unbelievable.”

Doesn't that just mean that weighted Goku's 'level' is around equal with Tenshinhan's, so they're evenly matched blow-for-blow, but since Goku's true power is much higher, and he hasn't actually suppressed his ki, he's not taking any real damage?

[ahill1]

Tenshinhan and weighted Goku are stated to be a match several times. Kame Sen'nin only brings up the difference in breathing, because Goku has learned to fight without making unnecessary movements, that was part of Kami's training.

Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) = Weighted Goku's power, which is stated to have surpassed his power from 3 years ago, which was at least equal to Piccolo Daimao Young if not slightly stronger.

It's also stated that Goku's speed has remained the same from 3 years ago. As we can see Tenshinhan is faster than Goku, by a significantly amount.

Goku ( Unweighted ) 300
Goku Weighted's power 225
Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) 225
Goku Weighted's speed/Goku 3 years ago 200
Piccolo Daimao Young 200

So yes, Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) is without a doubt stronger and faster than Piccolo Daimao Young.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter: 176, P14.6-7
Context: as Goku fights Tenshinhan
Announcer: “As-is, both contestants are about even! Neither one is giving an inch!”
Kame-sennin: “No, they’re not even. Even though he’s been flying around so much, Goku isn’t out of breath, not even a little bit. Unbelievable.”

Doesn't that just mean that weighted Goku's 'level' is around equal with Tenshinhan's, so they're evenly matched blow-for-blow, but since Goku's true power is much higher, and he hasn't actually suppressed his ki, he's not taking any real damage?

But he is.

I read the fight again and there's nothing to suggest Tenshinhan gave Goku any real difficulty.

Sure he is way faster but he did absolutely no damage to Goku. I see no problem in having him weaker than Daimao.

[ahill1]

@Zombie

I've ever proved that Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai) is stronger than Piccolo Daimao Young.

"Tenshinhan and weighted Goku are stated to be a match several times. Kame Sen'nin only brings up the difference in breathing, because Goku has learned to fight without making unnecessary movements, that was part of Kami's training."

Tenshinhan is indeed stronger than Daimao Young.

[Captain Space]

But he is.

I read the fight again and there's nothing to suggest Tenshinhan gave Goku any real difficulty.

Sure he is way faster but he did absolutely no damage to Goku. I see no problem in having him weaker than Daimao.

So, he's way faster...than this Goku whose speed is at least on par with his Sacred Water self's speed? Which still implies Tenshinhan is way above Sacred Water Goku, right...?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

They're only not equal because as ahill1 said, Goku learned from Kami-sama to fight without making unnecessary movements, which is why Tenshinhan is out of breathe and Goku isn't. There's nothing suggesting Goku is in a completely different league than Tenshinhan power-wise.

[ZombieVito]

But he is.

I read the fight again and there's nothing to suggest Tenshinhan gave Goku any real difficulty.

Sure he is way faster but he did absolutely no damage to Goku. I see no problem in having him weaker than Daimao.

So, he's way faster...than this Goku whose speed is at least on par with his Sacred Water self's speed? Which still implies Tenshinhan is way above Sacred Water Goku, right...?

No.

Speed =/= Power.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

[Captain Space]

No.

Speed =/= Power.

They generally correlate. The weights were the only reason Goku's speed was out of sync with the rest of his 'stats', right?

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

This too.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The only real instance of them not correlating is the Ginyus, who appeared to be anomalies, and Super Saiyan Grade 3, which was only because of the form, not because of Goku or Trunks.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.1
Context: Gohan doesn’t think Jheese and Burta are that strong
Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3,
Burta: “W-when did you…get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”

Chapter: 287 (DBZ 93), P2.2
Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body
Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!”

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P9.4
Piccolo: “Damn him! You may be more powerful, but I’m faster! You couldn’t catch up to me even if you spent your entire lifetime!”

[DanielSSJ]

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.1
Context: Gohan doesn’t think Jheese and Burta are that strong
Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3,
Burta: “W-when did you…get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”

Chapter: 287 (DBZ 93), P2.2
Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body
Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!”

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P9.4
Piccolo: “Damn him! You may be more powerful, but I’m faster! You couldn’t catch up to me even if you spent your entire lifetime!”

Just gonna point out that Piccolo was wrong in that last instance.

[ZombieVito]

It doesn't matter. That quote confirms that even if you get stronger it doesn't necessarily mean you will get faster.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It doesn't matter. That quote confirms that even if you get stronger it doesn't necessarily mean you will get faster.

You will get faster, it just doesn't necessarily mean that you will be faster than someone who is weaker than you.

[DanielSSJ]

Spoiler:

Son Goku arc

Kuririn 7

Yamcha 9
~Wolf Fang Fist 10.5

Son Goku 10
~Oozaru 100

Gyumao 19

Roshi 30



21st Budokai

Orin Temple Bullies 9

Yamcha 12
~Wolf Fang Fist 14

Giran 16

Kuririn 20

Namu 29

Son Goku 30
~Oozaru 300

Roshi 30


Red Ribbon Army part 1

Colonel Silver 10

Ninja Murasaki 18.6

Sergeant Metallic 27

Son Goku 30

Android #8 40


Red Ribbon Army part 2

Kuririn 20

Pirate Robot 24

General Blue 27

Son Goku 36

Tao Pai Pai 75

Son Goku ( Post Karin Training ) 83

Karin 170


Uranai Baba arc

Dracula Man 10.6

Invisible Man 11

Yamcha 12
~Wolf Fang Fist 14

Kuririn 20

Mummy 36

Akkuman 54

Son Gohan 80

Son Goku 83


22nd Budokai

Panpoot 30

Chapa-o 83

Chaozu 95

Yamcha 97.5

Kuririn 100

Tsuru 120

Roshi 139

Tenshinhan 180

Son Goku
~initial 100
~little more serious 120
~speedup ( "full match level" ) 154
~Full Power 180


Piccolo Daimao arc

flash back

Roshi ( Young ) 155
Tsuru ( Young ) 155
Mutaito 170

Kuririn 100

Cymbal 110

Tambourine 148

Yajirobe 160

Karin 170

Tenshinhan 180

Son Goku 180

Drum 300

Piccolo Daimao Old
~40% 360
~100% 900

Piccolo Daimao Young
~initial 1,200
~Full Power 1,800

Son Goku ( Post Sacred Water ) 1,800

Mr. Popo 3,000

Kami 6,000


23rd Budokai

Chapa-o 110

Chaozu 720

Chi Chi 900

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai 1,200

Yamcha 1,440

Kuririn 1,500

Tenshinhan 2,100

Shen 5,400

Kami 6,000

Piccolo Jr.
~initial 1,600
~Vs Kuririn 1,800
~Vs Shen 6,000
~Warm up ( Vs Goku ) 6,000
~Full Power 10,000

Son Goku
~Weighted
-------------speed 1,800
-------------power 2,100
~W/o Weights ( Vs Ten ) 3,000
~Tenshinhan's estimation 4,500
~Warm up ( Vs Piccolo ) 6,000
~Full Power 10,000

Okay I have several questions. Why are your numbers already in the thousands by the King Piccolo arc? Why is almost everyone in the 23rd Budokai as strong as, if not stronger, than Raditz? Why is Kami stronger than Nappa? Goku's full power 10,000? What drugs are you on and were can I get some?

[Noah]

Okay I have several questions. Why are your numbers already in the thousands by the King Piccolo arc? Why is almost everyone in the 23rd Budokai as strong as, if not stronger, than Raditz? Why is Kami stronger than Nappa? Goku's full power 10,000? What drugs are you on and were can I get some?

I felt really WTF by reading these numbers

[Noah]

What numbers would you guys give to:

Base Broly (M8 and M10)

SSGSS Supressed Super Saiyan Broly (M8)

Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 10)