Unpopular DB opinions

[Gog]

I don't see how. Cold was as strong as a suppressed Mecha Freeza. Him having other forms and not using them would be stupid. He doesn't because he considered Freeza and then Trunks, when Freeza died, the strongest in the universe. Freeza also wouldn't harp on and on about how he's the strongest if he was weaker than his father.

Okay I'm going to focus, on this one paragraph, I won't bother about the strength part, as we never know what level of power Mecha Freeza held himself too. Or prehaps he is in his second form, that's the only explanation on why he can't transform higher than that, besides the molding theory, which I hate. In fact Freeza's finial form looking as it is, even breaks the idea of King Cold being in his finial form, as that would actually require him to actually look like Freeza in his finial form.

In fact if he was in his finial form, that would be the equivalent of a super saiyan having blue hair. Having stripes, or being furry, so he never ascended beyond the second form, believing himself to be strong enough, and Freeza's might all mighty.

Huh, not as lazy as I thought.

He doesn't run circles around it, he states it once then everything he says after that keeps that line consistent. It's recent material that tries to portray his first form as his true one.

I'd say that recent material went as far back as the android saga. But yeah, the suppression form's being turned into augmentation form's is a complete and utter retcon from what Freeza stated in namek. I can never deny that fact.

I hope to see what you can bring to the table

[Doctor.]

as we never know what level of power Mecha Freeza held himself too.

Gohan says he can still increase his power "a lot". So, we do have an idea that he was suppressing himself "a lot".

Or prehaps he is in his second form, that's the only explanation on why he can't transform higher than that, besides the molding theory, which I hate.

Or... he doesn't have any other forms and the form we see him in is his only one. It's the logical explanation considering he says Freeza is the strongest in the universe. Then, he says Trunks is the strongest in the universe. And he asks for Trunks' sword, so he was desperate. If he could have tried to transform, then he would have. We also know that he died to Goku in the future timeline, so he didn't transform there either. And, like I said, Freeza wouldn't say he's the strongest in the universe if he wasn't the strongest in the universe. He wouldn't get so mad that Goku managed to hurt his hand if he was accostumed to such pain before. It just makes more sense that it's his only form, rather than assuming he has more and never transformed (or his other forms were NEVER shown in guidebooks, videogames, etc) because... reasons.

In fact Freeza's finial form looking as it is, even breaks the idea of King Cold being in his finial form, as that would actually require him to actually look like Freeza in his finial form.

Why? They're mutants. Being mutants implies that they all look different. Freeza could have modelled his second form after his father for all we know. Interpreting the series like this not only needlessly contradicts Freeza's line and character but just makes it so that you need to create more assumptions than what it's worth.

In fact if he was in his finial form, that would be the equivalent of a super saiyan having blue hair. Having stripes, or being furry, so he never ascended beyond the second form, believing himself to be strong enough, and Freeza's might all mighty.

Or, again, that was the form he was born in and Freeza simply modelled his second form after his father.

[Gog]

Gohan says he can still increase his power "a lot". So, we do have an idea that he was suppressing himself "a lot".

Yeah, we don't need to do this part of the topic, no longer

Or... he doesn't have any other forms and the form we see him in is his only one. It's the logical explanation considering he says Freeza is the strongest in the universe. Then, he says Trunks is the strongest in the universe. And he asks for Trunks' sword, so he was desperate. If he could have tried to transform, then he would have. We also know that he died to Goku in the future timeline, so he didn't transform there either. And, like I said, Freeza wouldn't say he's the strongest in the universe if he wasn't the strongest in the universe. He wouldn't get so mad that Goku managed to hurt his hand if he was accostumed to such pain before. It just makes more sense that it's his only form, rather than assuming he has more and never transformed (or his other forms were NEVER shown in guidebooks, videogames, etc) because... reasons.

Or prehaps he's in his second form, you assume that if the forms are augmentations, that it doesn't make them hard to get. Actually considering that the form he's in his beat by beat, near identical to Freeza's, and we distinguish the super saiyan forms from how they look. Its more logical to apply that logic, than to simply sa he can mold his forms, which was never once stated. Once implied, and I don't even know how the hell it showed up. Yes, yes and so we have to say that if the forms are augmentations than Freeza is in super saiyan 4, while Cold's in one

Why? They're mutants. Being mutants implies that they all look different. Freeza could have modelled his second form after his father for all we know. Interpreting the series like this not only needlessly contradicts Freeza's line and character but just makes it so that you need to create more assumptions than what it's worth.

Except for the fact that Freeza inherited King Cold's mutation, he inherited it, so Freeza should have the same mutation that King Cold has, and here come's the modeled line, jesus where did this show up, to become more prevalent. In fact saying that he can mold his form's is even more needlessly complicated, as in why did they create the form's to look like that, if Freeza can make suppression form's, why not augmentation form's? I'm just going to state it, what Freeza stated in the namek arc was retconned, the moment his father came onto the board.

Or, again, that was the form he was born in and Freeza simply modelled his second form after his father.

Except for the fact that Freeza and King Cold have the exact same mutation, that would mean that King Cold would absolutely have to have a finial form.

[ABED]

Perhaps King Cold prefers the form he believes is the most intimidating.

[Doctor.]

Or prehaps he's in his second form, you assume that if the forms are augmentations, that it doesn't make them hard to get. Actually considering that the form he's in his beat by beat, near identical to Freeza's, and we distinguish the super saiyan forms from how they look. Its more logical to apply that logic, than to simply sa he can mold his forms, which was never once stated. Once implied, and I don't even know how the hell it showed up. Yes, yes and so we have to say that if the forms are augmentations than Freeza is in super saiyan 4, while Cold's in one

But it's not near identical to Freeza's because Cold's "second form" is much stronger than Freeza's. If it wasn't his true form and he could get stronger like Freeza through transformations, then he would have trained or something, achieved those forms and become much more powerful than his son. But he didn't. Your interpretation brings more questions than it answers.

It's implied that Freeza can mold his forms the moment he said he created them to limit his power. Why wouldn't he be able to design what he himself creates?

I don't get why you're contesting factual information.

Except for the fact that Freeza inherited King Cold's mutation, he inherited it, so Freeza should have the same mutation that King Cold has, and here come's the modeled line, jesus where did this show up, to become more prevalent. In fact saying that he can mold his form's is even more needlessly complicated, as in why did they create the form's to look like that, if Freeza can make suppression form's, why not augmentation form's? I'm just going to state it, what Freeza stated in the namek arc was retconned, the moment his father came onto the board.

Because Freeza, by suppressing his power, he's using HIS power and doing what he wants with it. And what he wants to do with his power is limit it so that he doesn't go wild by accident, like he stated. By having augmentation forms, he's just pulling power out of his ass and becoming stronger for seemingly no reason at all.

Except for the fact that Freeza and King Cold have the exact same mutation, that would mean that King Cold would absolutely have to have a finial form.

But it's not the exact same. What you're doing is looking at Super Saiyan and at Super Saiyan Blue and saying they're the exact same thing, despite one being much stronger than the other and having slight design differences. Cold's appearance doesn't have to be related to Freeza's forms.

[Gog]

But it's not near identical to Freeza's because Cold's "second form" is much stronger than Freeza's. If it wasn't his true form and he could get stronger like Freeza through transformations, then he would have trained or something, achieved those forms and become much more powerful than his son. But he didn't. Your interpretation brings more questions than it answers.

Because he trained the form. Then the most logical explanation than, is that the forms are just so unbelievably hard to get, and what is to say that the forms are capable of being achieved through training? What's to say that the forms are achieved through, physical and mental trauma, and King Cold didn't want to do any of that, only getting to the second form before he gave up. Your interpretations also leave far more questions than answers as well.

It's implied that Freeza can mold his forms the moment he said he created them to limit his power. Why wouldn't he be able to design what he himself creates?

Than why would he design his third, second, and first form would even look like that, in theory the suppression form's would look like his regular form, minor differences. The designs are just so different that its baffling he would create them in the same way.

I don't get why you're contesting factual information.

Because King Cold's existence completely shits all over the idea.

Because Freeza, by suppressing his power, he's using HIS power and doing what he wants with it. And what he wants to do with his power is limit it so that he doesn't go wild by accident, like he stated. By having augmentation forms, he's just pulling power out of his ass and becoming stronger for seemingly no reason at all.

Then the ability to create suppression form's is an ability that King Cold himself can use, as he has the mutation that Freeza has. But he doesn't make any, so that means that they don't work that way.

But it's not the exact same. What you're doing is looking at Super Saiyan and at Super Saiyan Blue and saying they're the exact same thing, despite one being much stronger than the other and having slight design differences. Cold's appearance doesn't have to be related to Freeza's forms.

No, I'm just using the two forms as a jokey comparison. Except Cold's appearance absolutely has to be related to Freeza's forms as Freeza, is outright stated from Akira Toriyama to have inherited the same mutation, so the fact that King Cold is unable to transform and Freeza is, doesn't make sense, as Freeza inherited it from him. Also if Freeza inherited the same muation that would have to mean that King Cold's finial form, would absolutely look similar to Freeza's finial form.

[Doctor.]

Because he trained the form. Then the most logical explanation than, is that the forms are just so unbelievably hard to get, and what is to say that the forms are capable of being achieved through training? What's to say that the forms are achieved through, physical and mental trauma, and King Cold didn't want to do any of that, only getting to the second form before he gave up. Your interpretations also leave far more questions than answers as well.

You're making unreasonable assumptions to try to justify your own headcanon. My "interpretation" is what the canon provided us with, nothing else.

Than why would he design his third, second, and first form would even look like that, in theory the suppression form's would look like his regular form, minor differences. The designs are just so different that its baffling he would create them in the same way.

What do you mean "in theory"? Freeza created his forms, he designs them as he wants them. There's nothing to debate here.

Because King Cold's existence completely shits all over the idea.

No it doesn't. You just can't comprehend that Cold and Freeza's second form have similar designs for some reason. And even if it did, Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan also shits all over the idea that there's only one Super Saiyan per 1000 years, but it doesn't mean that Goku wasn't the first Super Saiyan in a 1000 years.

Then the ability to create suppression form's is an ability that King Cold himself can use, as he has the mutation that Freeza has. But he doesn't make any, so that means that they don't work that way.

Because he doesn't want to suppress his power? Freeza does, his father doesn't. Why is this a problem?

Except Cold's appearance absolutely has to be related to Freeza's forms as Freeza, is outright stated from Akira Toriyama to have inherited the same mutation, so the fact that King Cold is unable to transform and Freeza is, doesn't make sense, as Freeza inherited it from him. Also if Freeza inherited the same muation that would have to mean that King Cold's finial form, would absolutely look similar to Freeza's finial form.

Toriyama just stated they're both mutants. The fact that they're both mutants already implies they have different characteristics.

Freeza isn't capable of transforming. Freeza suppressed his power. Cold would be able to do the same thing but he doesn't want to. I don't get why this doesn't make sense to you. Cold being able to achieve further transformations and this NEVER being referenced anywhere makes much less sense.

[Gog]

You're making unreasonable assumptions to try to justify your own headcanon. My "interpretation" is what the canon provided us with, nothing else.

What do you mean "in theory"? Freeza created his forms, he designs them as he wants them. There's nothing to debate here.

Cold's the name of the game

No it doesn't. You just can't comprehend that Cold and Freeza's second form have similar designs for some reason. And even if it did, Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan also shits all over the idea that there's only one Super Saiyan per 1000 years, but it doesn't mean that Goku wasn't the first Super Saiyan in a 1000 years.

Because he doesn't want to suppress his power? Freeza does, his father doesn't. Why is this a problem?

Because, Freeza if we believe what he stated, he created the suppression forms, not his true form. So by that logic King Cold can absolutely not be in his finial form, because Freeza never changed the look of his finial form.

Toriyama just stated they're both mutants. The fact that they're both mutants already implies they have different characteristics.

No, Freeza http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... -431037840 this completly shits on this statement and nearly your entire argument.

Freeza isn't capable of transforming. Freeza suppressed his power. Cold would be able to do the same thing but he doesn't want to. I don't get why this doesn't make sense to you. Cold being able to achieve further transformations and this NEVER being referenced anywhere makes much less sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except for the fact that if Cold is in his finial form he has to look like Freeza in his finial form as Freeza only edited the first three forms. Unless the form's are augmentations and Cold never ascended past the second one.

[Doctor.]

Because, Freeza if we believe what he stated, he created the suppression forms, not his true form. So by that logic King Cold can absolutely not be in his finial form, because Freeza never changed the look of his finial form.

Why?

Where's the rule that Freeza's true form has to look the same as Cold's true form?

Your entire argument hinges on this one point and you can't provide one legitimate reason as to why the two should look the same. They're mutants, that already implies that they look different.

No, Freeza http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... -431037840 this completly shits on this statement and nearly your entire argument.

I don't see why. All that says is that Freeza inherited Cold's mutant genes. Yeah... Freeza's a mutant too. This, in no way, states that Cold and Freeza should look the same.

[Kamiccolo9]

That article also says that Freeza was "born from his father alone," making Cold asexual. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you denying that fact is what started this whole issue in the first place?

[Gog]

Why?

Where's the rule that Freeza's true form has to look the same as Cold's true form?

Because that would be Freeza's natural true form, and the fact that his natural true form looks so god damn different from King Cold's natural true form, even though Freeza inherited King Cold's genes. They should look the same as Freeza is his son, Freeza is apart of the same race, if King Cold looks so different, and nearly identical to Freeza's second form. Than he's not in his true form.

Your entire argument hinges on this one point and you can't provide one legitimate reason as to why the two should look the same. They're mutants, that already implies that they look different.

I smell hypocrisy over their, your entire argument was based around the fact that King Cold is capable of editing his form, but when I provided evidence to destroy that point, you stated that why has King Cold's true form has to look similar to Freeza's true form. Because they are the same race. Okay I'm going to bring the definition of mutation down here, because your constantly repeating that phrase as if it helps you.

mutation

the changing of the structure of a gene, resulting in a variant form which may be transmitted to subsequent generations, caused by the alteration of single base units in DNA, or the deletion, insertion, or rearrangement of larger sections of genes or chromosomes.
"mutation is, ultimately, the only way in which new variation enters the species"


They absolutely should not look different, as Freeza inherited King Cold's mutation.

I don't see why. All that says is that Freeza inherited Cold's mutant genes. Yeah... Freeza's a mutant too. This, in no way, states that Cold and Freeza should look the same.

Let me, spell this one out from you. Freeza inherited King Cold's mutant genes. He inherited King Cold's mutant genes, that absolutely means that King Cold, and Freeza would look the same. I'll even get the definition of mutation's right up here.


mutation

the changing of the structure of a gene, resulting in a variant form which may be transmitted to subsequent generations, caused by the alteration of single base units in DNA, or the deletion, insertion, or rearrangement of larger sections of genes or chromosomes.
"mutation is, ultimately, the only way in which new variation enters the species"


Freeza inherited his mutation. Which means King Cold must look like it. But he doesn't so that means that the form's aren't suppression, the form's aren't modifiable, their augmentations.

[Gog]

That article also says that Freeza was "born from his father alone," making Cold asexual. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you denying that fact is what started this whole issue in the first place?

Actually bringing up that article again.

http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... -431037840

Actually, its left for your own interpretation, but if you want. the Article stating that Freeza is 'apparently' asexual.

TRANSLATION NOTE: Thanks to Herms over at Kanzenshuu for the translation details, but I wish they had cleared this up during the actual interview. There is some room for interpretation, but the way it's phrased in Japanese, it seems they only mean that he inherited his father's mutant genes. That is, the "from his father alone" text is modifying the the text describing the traits Freeza was born with, rather than Freeza's birth itself.

[Kamiccolo9]

That article also says that Freeza was "born from his father alone," making Cold asexual. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you denying that fact is what started this whole issue in the first place?

Actually bringing up that article again.

http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... -431037840

Actually, its left for your own interpretation, but if you want. the Article stating that Freeza is 'apparently' asexual.

TRANSLATION NOTE: Thanks to Herms over at Kanzenshuu for the translation details, but I wish they had cleared this up during the actual interview. There is some room for interpretation, but the way it's phrased in Japanese, it seems they only mean that he inherited his father's mutant genes. That is, the "from his father alone" text is modifying the the text describing the traits Freeza was born with, rather than Freeza's birth itself.

Ok, then take it as you'd like. Either Cold is asexual, and your entire discussion is a moot point, or Freeza looks different than Cold because of his mother. Either way, you need to calm down and quit attacking Doctor. The admins don't look kindly on that. Just chill out.

[Gog]

That article also says that Freeza was "born from his father alone," making Cold asexual. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you denying that fact is what started this whole issue in the first place?

Actually bringing up that article again.

http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... -431037840

Actually, its left for your own interpretation, but if you want. the Article stating that Freeza is 'apparently' asexual.

TRANSLATION NOTE: Thanks to Herms over at Kanzenshuu for the translation details, but I wish they had cleared this up during the actual interview. There is some room for interpretation, but the way it's phrased in Japanese, it seems they only mean that he inherited his father's mutant genes. That is, the "from his father alone" text is modifying the the text describing the traits Freeza was born with, rather than Freeza's birth itself.

Ok, then take it as you'd like. Either Cold is asexual, and your entire discussion is a moot point, or Freeza looks different than Cold because of his mother. Either way, you need to calm down and quit attacking Doctor. The admins don't look kindly on that. Just chill out.

I'm not attacking Doctor, I've never attacked him once in this argument. Also the more likely scenario is that Freeza has a mother, as it is framed in a way to suggest that Freeza got the mutation. Also yeah, I need to chill out. Getting re~al passive aggressive

[Doctor.]

Because that would be Freeza's natural true form, and the fact that his natural true form looks so god damn different from King Cold's natural true form, even though Freeza inherited King Cold's genes. They should look the same as Freeza is his son, Freeza is apart of the same race, if King Cold looks so different, and nearly identical to Freeza's second form. Than he's not in his true form.

This is a non-sequitur. Just because Cold looks a certain way and Freeza is his son does not mean that Freeza has to look the exact same.

I smell hypocrisy over their, your entire argument was based around the fact that King Cold is capable of editing his form, but when I provided evidence to destroy that point, you stated that why has King Cold's true form has to look similar to Freeza's true form.

What? You're misunderstanding. I said Cold also has the power to create forms to suppress his power, he just doesn't want to. I've never said he can change his true form, just like Freeza can't.

They absolutely should not look different, as Freeza inherited King Cold's mutation.

Yes, what about the definition? Freeza doesn't share 100% of his father's DNA due to obvious reasons. Mutations can still occur inside his own unique DNA.

Let me, spell this one out from you. Freeza inherited King Cold's mutant genes. He inherited King Cold's mutant genes, that absolutely means that King Cold, and Freeza would look the same. I'll even get the definition of mutation's right up here.

Freeza inherited his mutation. Which means King Cold must look like it. But he doesn't so that means that the form's aren't suppression, the form's aren't modifiable, their augmentations.

No, you're just reaching this conclusion on your own and dismissing what the manga has told us.

Again, what sense would it make for Cold to be able to achieve further forms if no official material has ever referenced that? What you're saying is the same as me saying that Tenshinhan secretly has Saiyan ancestry. It's based on very vague and thin information and completely goes against the most logical explanations.

[Gog]

This is a non-sequitur. Just because Cold looks a certain way and Freeza is his son does not mean that Freeza has to look the exact same.

No, King Cold doesn't have to look the exact same, its just that. He looks nothing alike to Freeza's true form, its not a case of, yeah theirs some difference's but yeah he's in the finial form. Its more like, he looks exactly like Freeza's second form to the point where, he has to be in a second form, because if Freeza's finial form is the apparent true form, and he has a second form that looks exactly like Cold's.

What? You're misunderstanding. I said Cold also has the power to create forms to suppress his power, he just doesn't want to. I've never said he can change his true form, just like Freeza can't.

That's what I'm saying that makes absolutely no sense, if King Cold is in his true form, and he can not actually change it, and on what we have seen that Freeza's true form just looks so different to his.

Yes, what about the definition? Freeza doesn't share 100% of his father's DNA due to obvious reasons. Mutations can still occur inside his own unique DNA.

I'm now happy that you acknowledge that fact because we both know that if Freeza was asexual, than your entire argument would collapse. Except for the fact that Akira Toriyama outright stated that Freeza inherited King Cold's mutations. He didn't say that Freeza mutated even further, he just stated that Freeza inherited King Cold's mutations, nothing more, nothing less.

No, you're just reaching this conclusion on your own and dismissing what the manga has told us.

Your committing the same sin, by saying that King Cold's true form is where he is now, you are also dismissing what the manga has shown us when Freeza transformed into his finial form. Besides that line was retconned, with Freeza's father

[dbgtFO]

What do you mean "in theory"? Freeza created his forms, he designs them as he wants them. There's nothing to debate here.

Never stated that he designed them, he just.. transforms. The mechanics aren't specified.
Only the Golden Form is outright stated to be by personal design.

[Gog]

What do you mean "in theory"? Freeza created his forms, he designs them as he wants them. There's nothing to debate here.

Never stated that he designed them, he just.. transforms. The mechanics aren't specified.
Only the Golden Form is outright stated to be by personal design.

Actually that's another point to my side of the argument

[Doctor.]

What do you mean "in theory"? Freeza created his forms, he designs them as he wants them. There's nothing to debate here.

Never stated that he designed them, he just.. transforms. The mechanics aren't specified.
Only the Golden Form is outright stated to be by personal design.

It's implied that he designs them himself. If he created them to suppress himself, then it's almost guaranteed that he designs them himself. Why wouldn't he be able to design his own creation?

I would continue debating with Gog, but I'm seeing this isn't going anywhere and my original post wasn't even meant to bring up this debate in the first place.

Actually that's another point to my side of the argument

It doesn't, considering Freeza in the same movie stated he never trained before. So, if they were augmentation forms like you claim, then he must have had trained before in order to achieve them. But, again, not continuing the argument.

[Gog]

It's implied that he designs them himself. If he created them to suppress himself, then it's almost guaranteed that he designs them himself. Why wouldn't he be able to design his own creation?

Because prehaps the form's don't actually work that way in the first place.

I would continue debating with Gog, but I'm seeing this isn't going anywhere and my original post wasn't even meant to bring up this debate in the first place.

*licks lips, and smiles evilly* But seriously man, just when the debate was getting good? Just when I was getting all the evidence together? Ah come on man, that's no fun

It doesn't, considering Freeza in the same movie stated he never trained before. So, if they were augmentation forms like you claim, then he must have had trained before in order to achieve them. But, again, not continuing the argument.

But I stated, that the form's are too drastic of a change for them to be achieved in a similar vein of matter. But honestly I can respect you pulling out, as this really is getting nowhere.

Anyhoo new topic, I fucking hate the female Broly