"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Here, at least argue/debate/fight it out with the pertinent information.

Super Saiyan.

• Vados: "Hit does not use up any of his stamina in order to Time-Skip. On the other hand, his opponent seems to be spending quite a lot on such high speed movements. If it keeps going like this, that Saiyan will be the first one to have his stamina depleted.
  Goku: "...Shit...I guess it won't be that simple...If this keeps up, I'll be first to run out of energy."
  Beerus: "Shit! Goku's stronger in terms of power! How dare he use such a dirty trick like that 'Time-Skip'!"

Super Saiyan God

• Vegeta: "Kakarotto, that asshole... Even in this situation, he's conserving power for Blue?"
  ----------
  Hit: "Wh...What.... I couldn't stop for a full tenth of a second?"
  Whis: "The culprit is the power difference between Goku-san and Hit-san. Special abilities like those of Hit's are only effective on those who are below his level."
  Beerus: "But it didn't work for Vegeta, even when he was Blue?"
  Whis: "He was only to bring forth 1/10 of Blue's power. Blue isn't a transformation that can be done multiple times. The strain Blue has on one's stamina is that strenuous."
  Beerus: "So you're saying that Goku's God is stronger than Vegeta's Blue from back then? And that his level is higher than Hit's... Is that right?."

Hit's power increase

• Champa: "Hit! That bastard was hiding power!"
  Vados: "It's because he's usually able to defeat most opponents with his Time-Skip technique. There was no reason for him to go all out until now."
  Hit: "This is my full power. It's been so long since I used it that I don't think I'll last for over a minute. To be honest, I'll probably only be able to pass time one more time in this state. But that one time will be your end. I'll show you, definitely in a tenth of a second."

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

• Goku: "Hehe. Hit, you definitely are an assassin."
  Hit: "...So what?"
  Goku: "You probably have techniques that you could use that are against the rules, right?"
  Hit: "What about it?"
  Goku: "It means you're actually stronger than this. Next time, please fight me someplace else."

Match over

• Vegeta: "Hey Kakarotto. What are you thinking? throwing away a won fight..."
  Goku: "If you had conserved Blue's power too, you might have been able to win. Why would you turn Blue for that Cabba guy when you could have won with just Super Saiyan?"
  Vegeta: Hmph. That idiot's spirit couldn't have been fixed without my intervention.

[sintzu]

why wouldn't he know that he was training with Goku for 3 years.

Surely he would realize something like that

Maybe they never powered down then up again.

[ekrolo2]

Before someone says that Vegeta's an idiot for showing Cabba Blue, please remember the fact this guy thoroughly kicks the ass of Universe 6s crew with just Super Saiyan. Given how Vegeta's ego works, he would think a mere tenth of Blue's power would be enough to beat Hit.

[Xeztin]

As stated in the above posted translation, It's not staying in the form that drains the stamina, it's transforming into it multiple times.

Before someone says that Vegeta's an idiot for showing Cabba Blue, please remember the fact this guy thoroughly kicks the ass of Universe 6s crew with just Super Saiyan. Given how Vegeta's ego works, he would think a mere tenth of Blue's power would be enough to beat Hit.

I like this reasoning, especially since every time Vegeta got a new transformation in the past he thought he was invincible and that no one could compare to him.

[sintzu]

Given how Vegeta's ego works, he would think a mere tenth of Blue's power would be enough to beat Hit.

That definitely makes sense and is more believable then him just not knowing about it.

Goku: "Why would you turn Blue for that Cabba guy when you could have won just with just Super Saiyan?"
Vegeta: Hmph. That idiot's spirit couldn't have been fixed without my intervention.[/list]

Vegeta putting his chances at victory during his next fight on the line just to motivate Cabbe to get stronger is great character development so why did they get rid of that in the anime ? just to make Goku look better ?

[Xeztin]

It's not a hundred percent confirmed, but with Goku telling Vegeta he should have conserved Blue against Cabba and could have won it with SSJ; I think it's safe to say Vegeta doesn't have SSG. In other words, one doesn't need SSG or the ritual to obtain God Ki or Blue.

[LowRyder2005]

Given how Vegeta's ego works, he would think a mere tenth of Blue's power would be enough to beat Hit.

That definitely makes sense and is more believable then him just not knowing about it.

Goku: "Why would you turn Blue for that Cabba guy when you could have won just with just Super Saiyan?"
Vegeta: Hmph. That idiot's spirit couldn't have been fixed without my intervention.[/list]

Vegeta putting his chances at victory during his next fight on the line just to motivate Cabbe to get stronger is great character development so why did they get rid of that ? just to make Goku look better ?

Most definitely agree.

[Lord Beerus]

(Super Saiyan) Goku: "...Shit...I guess it won't be that simple...If this keeps up, I'll be first to run out of energy."

Oh, fuck off with this whole "Super Saiyan now suddenly drains your ki" bullshit. Goku leaped that hurdle years ago. He literally turned SSJ into a base form leading up the Cell Games. There should absolutely no scenario where Goku as a Super Saiyan would run out of energy. Toyotarō majorly fucked up.

[HeroR]

Vegeta isn't a moron for showing Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to Cabba. He's a moron for not staying transformed once he did.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Oh, fuck off with this whole "Super Saiyan now suddenly drains your ki" bullshit. Goku leaped that hurdle years ago. He literally turned SSJ into a base form leading up the Cell Games. There should absolutely no scenario where Goku as a Super Saiyan would run out of energy. Toyotarō majorly fucked up.

Except, they don't say being a Super Saiyan is wasting the energy, they say it's his high speed movements to keep up with Hit. Movement, techniques, etc always have and always will still drain energy if you're pushing yourself like that. So, you're complaining for nothing...

[dbzfan7]

Oh, fuck off with this whole "Super Saiyan now suddenly drains your ki" bullshit. Goku leaped that hurdle years ago. He literally turned SSJ into a base form leading up the Cell Games. There should absolutely no scenario where Goku as a Super Saiyan would run out of energy. Toyotarō majorly fucked up.

Except, they don't say being a Super Saiyan is wasting the energy, they say it's his high speed movements to keep up with Hit. Movement, techniques, etc always have and always will still drain energy if you're pushing yourself like that. So, you're complaining for nothing...

Pretty much. They still lose energy like any other person who physically taxes themselves. Goku's merely exerting himself to go at high speeds. Like any person who goes above their normal pace.

[Araki]

As stated in the above posted translation, It's not staying in the form that drains the stamina, it's transforming into it multiple times.

Except that "multiple times" in this case was just one. According to Toyotaro, those measly seconds Vegeta used to finish Cabba with no effort were enough to drain him to 1/10, which is a mortal flaw for SSB that came out of absolutely nowhere.

Anyway, the fact people need to go out of the way to explain all the BS in this chapter is telling.
And i saw some of them making fun of 'headcanon" before.

Given how Vegeta's ego works, he would think a mere tenth of Blue's power would be enough to beat Hit.

That definitely makes sense and is more believable then him just not knowing about it.

That would make Vegeta look bad for another reason: he wasn't able to realize Hit was dangerous, the way Goku did earlier.
Goku says even a full powered Vegeta would "maybe" defeat Hit...Vegeta was unable to understand that and leave SSB activated. All the explanations we try to come up with make him look stupid. There's just no way to make Vegeta look good in this scenario.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That would make Vegeta look bad for another reason: he wasn't able to realize Hit was a menace, the way Goku did earlier.
Goku says even a full powered Vegeta would "maybe" defeat Hit...Vegeta was unable to understand that and leave SSB activated. There's no way to make Vegeta look good in this scenario.

Beerus openly admits that SS Goku is stronger than the suppressed level that Hit was using for most of his fights. So SS Vegeta and even SSGSS Vegeta at 10% of it's power would therefore be stronger as well, but not strong enough to cause the Time Skip to fail...so he got wrecked before Hit needed to power up.

Goku was surprised by Hit powering up as well, so he didn't know how much of a threat Hit was from the start either.

[Lord Beerus]

As stated in the above posted translation, It's not staying in the form that drains the stamina, it's transforming into it multiple times.

Except that "multiple times" in this case was just one. According to Toyotaro, those measly seconds Vegeta used to finish Cabba with no effort were enough to drain him to 1/10, which is a mortal flaw for SSB that came out of absolutely nowhere.

Anyway, the fact people need to go out of the way to explain all the BS in this chapter is telling.
And i saw some of them making fun of 'headcanon" before.

Actually, in Chapter 12, Vegeta transforms into SSJB twice. He powered down to his base form after he knocked out Cabba as SSJB. Although, I still fail to see how transforming twice would count as "multiple" times. Transforming into a SSJB for approximately 10-20 seconds obviously seems to waste about 10-20% of your power. And the remaining 80-70% that Vegeta wasted must have come from his somewhat prolonged "battle" with Hit. It just makes you wonder how in God's name Goku and Vegeta managed to get past Golden Freeza in the manga. Unless that battle lasted less than a minute, I can't imagine a scenario, with the drastic drawbacks that SSJB supposedly has in the manga, where Golden Freeza doesn't beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta.

[saiyanvegetable]

Super has been shitting on dragonball lore for it's entire run and nobody cares but now you add a genuine drawback to an asspull bullshit transformation like super saiyan blue everyone is up in arms lol just lol

[Araki]

Actually, in Chapter 12, Vegeta transforms into SSJB twice. He powered down to his base form after he knocked out Cabba as SSJB. Although, I still fail to see how transforming twice would count as "multiple" times. Transforming into a SSJB for approximately 10-20 seconds obviously seems to waste about 10-20% of your power. And the remaining 80-70% that Vegeta wasted must have come from his somewhat prolonged "battle" with Hit.

Yeah, i meant that this one time against Cabba, where he barely used it, was enough to drain him down to 1/10. So we're left to assume that when he transformed again vs Hit, he was already at that level from the start, according to Toyotarou. Instead of 'multiple times", that one transformation was enough to make the next one useless, and either Vegeta wasn't aware or he decided he didn't need to keep SSB (which would have no drawback at all).

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yeah, i meant that this one time against Cabba, where he barely used it, was enough to drain him down to 1/10. So we're left to assume that when he transformed again vs Hit, he was already at that level from the start, according to Toyotarou.

The way Whis phrased it, he was at that level once he transformed, but I don't think he was at 10% after turning back to base once Cabba was defeated. Maybe more like he lost 35% when he transformed against Cabba, 20% from his "fight" against Cabba, and then another 35% when he transformed against Hit?

Or maybe 25% when transforming against Cabba, 15% during the fight and then because he transformed again the drain was worse and he lost 50% against Hit? I dunno.

[LowRyder2005]

Hold on, though, why are people blaming Toyotaro for this?
Toyotaro follows Toriyama's narrative directions and the sketches he draws (or writes) are ultimately always supervised/ revised by Toriyama if the latter deems it necessary.

Toyotaro is quite literally the "hand" of Toriyama in Super's manga. It's Toriyama that has the last word here.
As for Vegeta, yeah, probably turning off Blue before the last fight was kind of a careless mistake. (Still, to me the anime has made much, much worse in comparison).

[ArchedThunder]

Here, at least argue/debate/fight it out with the pertinent information.
]

When does Hit say he's going to use his full power? Because if it's when he was screaming/doing the generic powerup it was immediately followed by him getting kicked in the gut during a timeskip by Blue and taking a Kamemaheha. I don't see anything here that implies Hit is stronger than Blue Goku.

[Chuquita]

i misssed ssjg goku and was thrilled to him in the f and Champa dougi. when i get out of here there will be mini comics.