Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

This is something that has always bugged my. Why do people think that Vegeta and 18 were close in strength? People say the fight between them was almost even, and that Vegeta only lost because the Androids' stamina never goes down. However, at the end of it all, Vegeta has two broken arms and is unconscious, and 18's clothes have been torn up. Despite fighting "evenly" with her for a period of time, Vegeta has inflicted no damage to Android 18.

[LightBing]

This is something that has always bugged my. Why do people think that Vegeta and 18 were close in strength? People say the fight between them was almost even, and that Vegeta only lost because the Androids' stamina never goes down. However, at the end of it all, Vegeta has two broken arms and is unconscious, and 18's clothes have been torn up. Despite fighting "evenly" with her for a period of time, Vegeta has inflicted no damage to Android 18.

The androids take no damage, unless you rip parts of them. I believe this is stated more than once in the manga. #17 had a even more close fight with Piccolo and the only thing he had was torn up clothes.

[Zephyr]

How do you guys generally compare the early Android arc characters to their Movie 7 counterparts?

[DanielSSJ]

The androids take no damage, unless you rip parts of them. I believe this is stated more than once in the manga. #17 had a even more close fight with Piccolo and the only thing he had was torn up clothes.

I just took a look at the manga, and Android 17 did show some battle damage. He was bleeding from the mouth (like every anime character ever) and was a little bruised, and after Cell absorbs him, 17 is bruised, sweating, and bleeding.

[LightBing]

The androids take no damage, unless you rip parts of them. I believe this is stated more than once in the manga. #17 had a even more close fight with Piccolo and the only thing he had was torn up clothes.

I just took a look at the manga, and Android 17 did show some battle damage. He was bleeding from the mouth (like every anime character ever) and was a little bruised, and after Cell absorbs him, 17 is bruised, sweating, and bleeding.

Yes, he was bleeding but so was #19 (from the nose) and he was stated to not have suffered any damage. He also displayed bruises, which might be general fight related dirtiness. #18 also has the same bruises during her fight with Vegeta. #17 sweating was when he was about to be absorbed by Cell, it's a normal bodily function in a highly desperate situation.

The point is, if Goku or Piccolo took a punch to the gut, they would lose power caused by the damage. The androids don't.

[DanielSSJ]

Yes, he was bleeding but so was #19 (from the nose) and he was stated to not have suffered any damage. He also displayed bruises, which might be general fight related dirtiness. #18 also has the same bruises during her fight with Vegeta. #17 sweating was when he was about to be absorbed by Cell, it's a normal bodily function in a highly desperate situation.

The point is, if Goku or Piccolo took a punch to the gut, they would lose power caused by the damage. The androids don't.

There's a difference between losing stamina over a period of time and taking damage. Piccolo and Cell were able to damage 17. Vegeta wasn't able to damage 18.

[LightBing]

Yes, he was bleeding but so was #19 (from the nose) and he was stated to not have suffered any damage. He also displayed bruises, which might be general fight related dirtiness. #18 also has the same bruises during her fight with Vegeta. #17 sweating was when he was about to be absorbed by Cell, it's a normal bodily function in a highly desperate situation.

The point is, if Goku or Piccolo took a punch to the gut, they would lose power caused by the damage. The androids don't.

There's a difference between losing stamina over a period of time and taking damage. Piccolo and Cell were able to damage 17. Vegeta wasn't able to damage 18.

You're stepping on you're own toes. Since #18 has the same bruises from the fight as has #17, which you used to justify the inflicted damage.
Stamina is the same thing as taking the damage for the Androids, if Piccolo was fighting evenly with #17 and the latter didn't lost power, that means he didn't get damaged.
Androids only have two stages 100% or dead. Trying to evaluate how much someone fared against them by looking at their bruises is meaningless.

Here's the various quotes regarding the Androids stamina:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P11.1
Context: after Goku beats up on No.19
Yamcha: “L-look. Despite being that beat up, he seems fine…”
Tenshinhan: “He’s an android. He probably doesn’t have pain or fatigue…”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3
Context: after fighting merged Piccolo for a long time
No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

[Noah]

Did Muten Roshi improved in DB by time to time? Or he always had 139 BP since his first appearance in manga/anime? I remember he saying as Jackie Chun in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, that he trained.

[Sandubadear]

Did Muten Roshi improved in DB by time to time? Or he always had 139 BP since his first appearance in manga/anime? I remember he saying as Jackie Chun in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, that he trained.

According to this, 139 is his BP in the 22nd Budokai, so it would be slightly below that in the 21st; and 180 in the fight against Piccolo.

[ZombieVito]

Did Muten Roshi improved in DB by time to time? Or he always had 139 BP since his first appearance in manga/anime? I remember he saying as Jackie Chun in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, that he trained.

He was way weaker at the beginning. I don't have him even passing the 40's at the 21st TB.

[Noah]

He was way weaker at the beginning. I don't have him even passing the 40's at the 21st TB.

Really? Well I have Goku around 100 BP in 21st TB do you think is exaggerated to assume that Goku got 10x stronger with Master Roshi harsh training?

[ZombieVito]

He was way weaker at the beginning. I don't have him even passing the 40's at the 21st TB.

Really? Well I have Goku around 100 BP in 21st TB do you think is exaggerated to assume that Goku got 10x stronger with Master Roshi harsh training?

Well yes. Considering that Karin's training should multiple his power.

[Noah]

Well yes. Considering that Karin's training should multiple his power.

Could you show me your 21st TB Arc to RR Arc BP list for me to compare?

[ZombieVito]

Well yes. Considering that Karin's training should multiple his power.

Could you show me your 21st TB Arc to RR Arc BP list for me to compare?

Sure.

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 32
-- Oozaru transformation: 320

Master Roshi: 35
-- Buff form: 45

Nam: 28
Kuririn: 24
Giran: 21
Yamcha: 18
Ran Fan: 14
Bacterian: 13
Oorin Temple Upperclassman: 9

Spoiler:

Arale Norimaki: 270
Karin: 190

Son Goku: 36
-- After Karin’s training: 80

Tao Pai Pai: 60

Assistant Black: 5.5
-- Battle Jacket: 55

Artificial Human No. 8: 50
Bora: 35
General Blue: 30
Pirate Robot: 27
Sergeant Metallic: 25
Kuririn: 24
Buyon: 20
Sergeant Master Murasaki: 10
General White: 6
Captain Silver: 5.75

[ahill1]

Did Muten Roshi improved in DB by time to time? Or he always had 139 BP since his first appearance in manga/anime? I remember he saying as Jackie Chun in 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, that he trained.

Yea, Muten Roshi was in the 22nd Budokai a lot stronger than in the 21st Budokai. He got many times stronger.

Roshi stated that he trained in secret after the Uranai Baba arc - “You’ve got to be kidding. I’m Muten Roshi; I won’t lose when it comes to willpower. I’ve been training in secret myself!”

He was surpassed by Goku by the RRA Arc so he had to train to even stand a chance at the 22nd Budokai.

Panput's feat of casually breaking the Budokai arena wall was arguably more impressive than what Goku did at the 21st Budokai and look at how Goku took care of him.

We have Goku (22nd Budokai)>Roshi(22nd Budokai)>Goku(Uranai Baba)>Panput>Goku(21st Budokai)~Roshi(21st Budokai).

Realistically, Roshi has to start off somewhere like 20~ at the 21st Budokai/RRA arc considering he couldn't even see Goku's movements in the Uranai baba arc.


My power levels

Roshi
~21st Budokai 20
~22nd Budokai 60
~Raditz arc 139

[Wizard Sesame]

The real problem I've always had with figuring out the power levels of early DB is the five year gap between the Budokai and the arrival of Raditz. In order to have Tien's confidence make sense, he needs to be stronger or at least as strong as Piccolo Daimao when he was fighting at the Budokai, but with a set total of 250 in early DBZ, it's difficult to fit in since it would imply that he has had no growth over the five year gap and that just does not jive with his character. Do most of you go with the suppressed state idea or is there another way to combat it?

[ZombieVito]

Tenshinhan doesn't need to be stronger or equal to Daimao.

[Wizard Sesame]

Tenshinhan doesn't need to be stronger or equal to Daimao.

Not stronger, no, but in my opinion, he has to be in the same range in order for his confidence at being able to take on Goku at the 23rd Budokai to make any sort of sense. Does he need to have been able to beat Daimao? No, he could still lose to him if the pair were to fight, but for his confidence to make any sort of casual sense, I feel that he needs to be in the same ball park. Can he be weaker? Again, yes, but he can't be weak enough that his lack of gains during the five year stretch make appropriate sense for his character. For example, if Daimao is 260, Tien would need to be around 230 or so I would imagine at the 23rd Budokai to have some semblance of confidence against Goku, which means that Tien's growth was only 20 points in five years. I don't feel that it jives.

The only way I think it makes sense is having the really low power levels in the early part of DB as I've seen others post in this thread or he was somehow suppressed.

[ahill1]

Tenshinhan doesn't need to be stronger or equal to Daimao.

He need; Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) > Piccolo Daimao is pretty sure.

[ZombieVito]

Tenshinhan doesn't need to be stronger or equal to Daimao.

He need; Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) > Piccolo Daimao is pretty sure.

Official sources disagree.