Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Shinomori]

Again I would have to say the show has been inconsistent with these power levels. I could make the argument that Kid Trunks is just as strong as Gohan was during the RoF arc. Gohan powered up to his maximum so Goku could lock on to his ki to teleport to earth right? Well, Kid Trunks did the same and Goku was able to lock on in the same manner. Now, I'll tell you an even more amazing feat, in that Kid Trunks is just as strong as SSB Vegeta! How? In the first episode of this arc, Goku was trying to lock on to Vegeta's power to teleport to Beerus' planet. Yet he was unable to do so until Vegeta went SSB. So if you put two and two together, Kid Trunks and SSB Vegeta are the same.

Just in case some of you are wondering, I am joking about them being the same. Unfortunately, I'm not joking about the series being inconsistent in power levels.

[Hugo Boss]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

We've already seen him train alone. Future Trunks spent a year in the RoSaT alone during the Cell Games arc and he didn't get much stronger at all.

That can be justified by the plot not demanding Trunks to become much stronger. It doesn't have to mean Trunks can't do it in another moment. Right now, Trunks has been surviving multiple clashes against someone even more powerful than Majin Boo, thus explaining how he could become so much more powerful after defeating Dabra. Wasn't Mr. Toriyama who said Saiyans get stronger as they fight? So...

[ekrolo2]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

We've already seen him train alone. Future Trunks spent a year in the RoSaT alone during the Cell Games arc and he didn't get much stronger at all.

That can be justified by the plot not demanding Trunks to become much stronger. It doesn't have to mean Trunks can't do it in another moment. Right now, Trunks has been surviving multiple clashes against someone even more powerful than Majin Boo, thus explaining how he could become so much more powerful after defeating Dabra. Wasn't Mr. Toriyama who said Saiyans get stronger as they fight? So...

By that logic, every Saiyan who's ever had a fight ever should've started getting stronger during any clash but they don't. At best, they got the shit kicked out of them then received boosts which got mostly retired after Namek.

[Hugo Boss]

That can be justified by the plot not demanding Trunks to become much stronger. It doesn't have to mean Trunks can't do it in another moment. Right now, Trunks has been surviving multiple clashes against someone even more powerful than Majin Boo, thus explaining how he could become so much more powerful after defeating Dabra. Wasn't Mr. Toriyama who said Saiyans get stronger as they fight? So...

By that logic, every Saiyan who's ever had a fight ever should've started getting stronger during any clash but they don't. At best, they got the shit kicked out of them then received boosts which got mostly retired after Namek.

Very well, but what I said still seems more credible to me, that Trunks gets more powerful as he fights Black. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan (perhaps even Cabba) all become very powerful when they fight among themselves. I don't see the issue with Trunks.

[ekrolo2]

That can be justified by the plot not demanding Trunks to become much stronger. It doesn't have to mean Trunks can't do it in another moment. Right now, Trunks has been surviving multiple clashes against someone even more powerful than Majin Boo, thus explaining how he could become so much more powerful after defeating Dabra. Wasn't Mr. Toriyama who said Saiyans get stronger as they fight? So...

By that logic, every Saiyan who's ever had a fight ever should've started getting stronger during any clash but they don't. At best, they got the shit kicked out of them then received boosts which got mostly retired after Namek.

Very well, but what I said still seems more credible to me, that Trunks gets more powerful as he fights Black. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan (perhaps even Cabba) all become very powerful when they fight among themselves. I don't see the issue with Trunks.

I kind of have a problem with it, not that he got Super Saiyan 2 but the fact he's so powerful when he didn't have access to the Z-sword or Old Kai's potential unlock or Whis' training to help justify it. It's shown that, after a certain point, training methods just stop being effective unless you really, really force yourself hard like Vegeta did with the obsolete gravity room. At this point, unless you get God ki or train under Whis, any strength gain that gets you to Goku & Vegeta levels is gonna look like bullshit.

[Chiki]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

We've already seen him train alone. Future Trunks spent a year in the RoSaT alone during the Cell Games arc and he didn't get much stronger at all.

That can be justified by the plot not demanding Trunks to become much stronger. It doesn't have to mean Trunks can't do it in another moment. Right now, Trunks has been surviving multiple clashes against someone even more powerful than Majin Boo, thus explaining how he could become so much more powerful after defeating Dabra. Wasn't Mr. Toriyama who said Saiyans get stronger as they fight? So...

It was said that Black gets stronger after every fight, not Trunks. Saiyans haven't received Zenkai boosts since Namek.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

A Saiyans power growing through fighting isn't the same as getting a Zenkai boost.

[HeroR]

A Saiyans power growing through fighting isn't the same as getting a Zenkai boost.

Yeah. Toriyama even said in an interview that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, so if a enemy is not careful, they can have the tides turn against them. Vegeta even called Hit's ability to grow stronger and adapt while fighting is a Saiyan trait.

[ekrolo2]

A Saiyans power growing through fighting isn't the same as getting a Zenkai boost.

Yeah. Toriyama even said in an interview that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, so if a enemy is not careful, they can have the tides turn against them. Vegeta even called Hit's ability to grow stronger and adapt while fighting is a Saiyan trait.

Which has never been a thing until Hit. Goku doesn't magically start getting ground against Cell during his even bout with him: he gets weaker, tired. Goku and Vegeta don't mutually become stronger during their bout in the Boo Saga, nor does Goku against Kid Boo. Or Vegeta vs 18....

I'm not saying Saiyan's can't improve through fighting, it's implied that's how their society functioned but given the fact 99.9% of them never cracked the 10 000 mark, it's obviously a long, tedious and highly ineffective way to get stronger.

[Chiki]

A Saiyans power growing through fighting isn't the same as getting a Zenkai boost.

Then this has never happened in the Dragon Ball series. That is, sure Saiyans get stronger through fighting a bit quicker than others, but we've never seen a boost like Future Trunks's (below Dabura level to above SS3 Gotenks level in Base) just by fighting a bad guy occasionally for a year. Lol

[Bullza]

This would make Base Trunks at the same league as the Super Buus, and he did without any sparring partner (maybe a gravity chamber if Future Bulma remembers to build one) and he did this alone, while Goku needed the SSJG ritual to get to that level and Vegeta needed to swallow his pride and train with Whis.

Well Cabba is the exact same. Nobody has a problem with Base Cabba being far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and he's just a young Saiyan who hadn't even heard of Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Trunks was pretty good. He would never say that about a Buu saga level character.

You're list where you had SSJ2 Trunks > Base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks etc was spot on.

[ekrolo2]

This would make Base Trunks at the same league as the Super Buus, and he did without any sparring partner (maybe a gravity chamber if Future Bulma remembers to build one) and he did this alone, while Goku needed the SSJG ritual to get to that level and Vegeta needed to swallow his pride and train with Whis.

Well Cabba is the exact same. Nobody has a problem with Base Cabba being far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and he's just a young Saiyan who hadn't even heard of Super Saiyan.

*Raises hand as the one asshole who does have a problem with it.*

[dbgtFO]

When it comes to power levels in Toei productions, I just judge them on a case-by-case basis.
Expecting it to be consistent with each other is asking a bit too much for me, mainly due to all the writers working on the scenario for each given episode and what not, whereas the original manga only had one writer, so keeping things consistent was easier.
Also video-game logic, for my money with Toei's stuff, it always seems like it's written with video-game logic.

Certainly stuff like Piccolo's fight with Frost seems more fitting with video-game logic than "normal" logic, ie. imagine Piccolo has 3 out 3 health bars, whereas Frost has 6 out of 10 health bars, due to getting weakened after fighting Goku. Piccolo needs to dodge Frost as he can't afford to get hit as much as Frost. By normal logic Piccolo should have gotten utterly owned.

[Chiki]

This would make Base Trunks at the same league as the Super Buus, and he did without any sparring partner (maybe a gravity chamber if Future Bulma remembers to build one) and he did this alone, while Goku needed the SSJG ritual to get to that level and Vegeta needed to swallow his pride and train with Whis.

Well Cabba is the exact same. Nobody has a problem with Base Cabba being far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and he's just a young Saiyan who hadn't even heard of Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Trunks was pretty good. He would never say that about a Buu saga level character.

You're list where you had SSJ2 Trunks > Base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks etc was spot on.

Yes they do, that's one of the reasons why a lot of people accept the two base theory.

Edit: In the manga, they ARE far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Also, he said Trunks was pretty good after the tournament, which has Cell-level fighters like Frost, Magetta and Cabba, so his perspective changed on strength for mortals.

[Bullza]

Yes they do, that's one of the reasons why a lot of people accept the two base theory.

There isn't a lot who think there's a two base theory in the first place let alone for that reason.

80% of this theory comes down to Piccolo's fight with Frost. There's next to nothing else that supports it besides that.

dit: In the manga, they ARE far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.

They never once said or showed that to be true.

which has Cell-level fighters like Frost, Magetta and Cabba

But Frost and Magetta aren't even close to being as low as Cell level fighters so that doesn't make any sense either. Botamo is the only one who could be but he could be anywhere.

[Chiki]

Yes they do, that's one of the reasons why a lot of people accept the two base theory.

There isn't a lot who think there's a two base theory in the first place let alone for that reason.

80% of this theory comes down to Piccolo's fight with Frost. There's next to nothing else that supports it besides that.

dit: In the manga, they ARE far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.

They never once said or showed that to be true.

which has Cell-level fighters like Frost, Magetta and Cabba

But Frost and Magetta aren't even close to being as low as Cell level fighters so that doesn't make any sense either. Botamo is the only one who could be but he could be anywhere.

And, of course, Future Trunks's power.

Goku never uses SSG power in Base at all in the manga, not even in his fight with Beerus, meaning he hasn't absorbed the power into Base or SS. And he suddenly transforms into SSG during his fight with Hit. Further, he tells Frost to train more to become stronger, meaning Frost never trains at all, implying he's closer to Namek Frieza than RoF Frieza. Anyone could figure out that he hasn't absorbed the SSG power at all in the manga.

[GodKaio-Ken]

A Saiyans power growing through fighting isn't the same as getting a Zenkai boost.

Yeah. Toriyama even said in an interview that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, so if a enemy is not careful, they can have the tides turn against them. Vegeta even called Hit's ability to grow stronger and adapt while fighting is a Saiyan trait.

Which has never been a thing until Hit. Goku doesn't magically start getting ground against Cell during his even bout with him: he gets weaker, tired. Goku and Vegeta don't mutually become stronger during their bout in the Boo Saga, nor does Goku against Kid Boo. Or Vegeta vs 18....

I'm not saying Saiyan's can't improve through fighting, it's implied that's how their society functioned but given the fact 99.9% of them never cracked the 10 000 mark, it's obviously a long, tedious and highly ineffective way to get stronger.

Everyone here is stating it WAY different from the way I always understood it.

Which is that a Saiyan gains power by coming near to death. A Saiyan that is always winning uncontested battles shouldn't receive any battle boost. Also I understand it as the power boost doesnt take effect until recovery.

This is why Vegeta asks to be blasted to near death by (I believe its Krillin right?) during the Freeza saga.

[ekrolo2]

Which has never been a thing until Hit. Goku doesn't magically start getting ground against Cell during his even bout with him: he gets weaker, tired. Goku and Vegeta don't mutually become stronger during their bout in the Boo Saga, nor does Goku against Kid Boo. Or Vegeta vs 18....

I'm not saying Saiyan's can't improve through fighting, it's implied that's how their society functioned but given the fact 99.9% of them never cracked the 10 000 mark, it's obviously a long, tedious and highly ineffective way to get stronger.

Everyone here is stating it WAY different from the way I always understood it.

Which is that a Saiyan gains power by coming near to death. A Saiyan that is always winning uncontested battles shouldn't receive any battle boost. Also I understand it as the power boost doesnt take effect until recovery.

This is why Vegeta asks to be blasted to near death by (I believe its Krillin right?) during the Freeza saga.

I know, the point of my post was to state that Saiyan's predominately gained big strength boosts from coming to near death then recovering until Super Saiyan. Toriyama's statements on their society did imply that under constant combat, some guys could get stronger through just fighting but given how small of a power most Saiyan's had, this was clearly an ineffective method to becoming stronger.

[TheMikado]

Messed up post..

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Then this has never happened in the Dragon Ball series. That is, sure Saiyans get stronger through fighting a bit quicker than others, but we've never seen a boost like Future Trunks's (below Dabura level to above SS3 Gotenks level in Base) just by fighting a bad guy occasionally for a year. Lol

Regardless if a boost on this scale has happened or not, it's a Saiyan trait that was mentioned as early as the Namek saga:

Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

Freeza: “It seems that the Saiyans really do hide bottomless battle power…It increases greatly the more they battle…Of course, there’s no way they could be a match for me, but if I don’t think of the future and nip them in the bud now…After all, it’d be troublesome if they were able to become Super Saiyans…”

Vegeta: “Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!”

So the idea of this being a new concept is completely wrong.

Black isn't going to power-up as much as Trunks because he's the stronger of the two. This doesn't change the fact that he's still likely to power-up. Trunks became a Super Saiyan 2 on his own without having access to anything the other Super Saiyan 2's utilized to reach that level. Trunks simply got a lot stronger and it's indicated in Super. You can at it, but that doesn't change anything.