"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[sintzu]

And there's no reason to have one of the main antagonists of the arc job that early.

He didn't job, when he was healed by Zamasu he kicked Vegeta's ass but unlike the anime Vegeta fought back. You can have someone lose and make it look OK. he also kicked Trunks' ass and forced him to run away for help.

Frieza made Vegeta cry

He...He just had dust in his eyes.

[Kaiosama]

Vegeta is more crappy clone of Goku made to make Goku look better. That's always what his role has been in this show and it will continue to be so as long as Toriyama and the Big Wigs at Toei and Shueisha say so. Let's face it, the guy has taken a MAJOR step back in character this arc. Poor writing...

[HeroR]

Yeah, but Vegeta didn't know that since he couldn't sense ki. So from Vegeta's POV, he was 'forced' into it when he really didn't need it.

The fact of the matter is he didn't need it, regardless of what he thought. If we know he didn't need it then why bother bringing it up ?

I bought it up because narrative and story-wise, Vegeta used his Great Ape form because he was pushed into it. Vegeta had an advantage, but he didn't know it and it is actually a point against him. Much like 20 could have stomped Vegeta after 19 sucked his energy, but was forced to retreat thanks to Vegeta bluffing him.

[Freeza9000]

And there's no reason to have one of the main antagonists of the arc job that early.

He didn't job, when he was healed by Zamasu he kicked Vegeta's ass but unlike the anime Vegeta fought back. You can have someone lose and make it look OK. he also kicked Trunks' ass and forced him to run away for help.

I mean, before Zamasu was introduced into the play Black was portrayed as mere pathetic fodder. And *NEWS FLASH*, just like all the previous villains in Z, whenever Black no longer had control of the situation at hand, he resorts to ranting in desperate disbelief about how impossible it was for his almighty self to lose. Even Goku lampshaded how much of a pathetic coward Black was. It's just not a very effective way to introduce one of the main antagonists against our protagonists.

Whereas in the anime, even when he's being utterly bested and humiliated at his game, he maintains his composure and smugness, but still analyzes the problem and figures out a solution to counter it.

[Jigurashi]

The manga gave Vegeta a good performance against Black the first time around but it was a terrible way of handling the threat level of an antagonist. Black was the big antagonist until the true main antagonist (M-Zamasu) appeared, and having him just get shitted on in his first fight with a top tier fighter was terrible.

[HeroR]

He didn't job, when he was healed by Zamasu he kicked Vegeta's ass but unlike the anime Vegeta fought back. You can have someone lose and make it look OK. he also kicked Trunks' ass and forced him to run away for help.

Here's the different though. In the manga, Black just beat Vegeta up old school style. In the anime, Black outright impaled him and Vegeta wasn't expecting it. Even then, he saved Goku and Trunks' lives with his last bit of energy, so he did 'fight back' despite having his lung pierced.

The manga gave Vegeta a good performance against Black the first time around but it was a terrible way of handling the threat level of an antagonist. Black was the big antagonist until the true main antagonist (M-Zamasu) appeared, and having him just get shitted on in his first fight with a top tier fighter was terrible.

I think what did Black in in the manga is how he reacted to Vegeta beating him. If he was more like Anime Black and said stuff 'this pain will make me stronger' or laughed or smiled while Vegeta kicked his shit in, then it would have been better overall and made it looked like Black already knew Future Zamasu would save him instead of it just being coincidental. I mean, when Black was getting his shit kicked in by Vegeta in the anime, he kept his act together, so he kept his 'dignity' while getting out-powered.

Him going the traditional whine and cry when overpowered did his character no favors, especially since he wasn't an established threat like King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, Nappa, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell to a lesser extent, or Super Buu before they had their meltdowns. Black's best feat at that point was beating up Future Trunks, who was more or less fodder to Goku and Vegeta.

[JazzMazz]

He didn't job, when he was healed by Zamasu he kicked Vegeta's ass but unlike the anime Vegeta fought back. You can have someone lose and make it look OK. he also kicked Trunks' ass and forced him to run away for help.

Here's the different thought. In the manga, Black just beat Vegeta up old school style. In the anime, Black outright impaled him and Vegeta wasn't expecting it. Even then, he saved Goku and Trunks' life with his lost bit of energy, so he did 'fight back' despite having his lung pierce.

Wasn't Vegeta also overpowering Black in their brief encounter even though Black had gone Rose? He only gotten taken out in that encounter because Black took him off guard, in the manga, he just got flat out beaten.

[Freeza9000]

He didn't job, when he was healed by Zamasu he kicked Vegeta's ass but unlike the anime Vegeta fought back. You can have someone lose and make it look OK. he also kicked Trunks' ass and forced him to run away for help.

Here's the different thought. In the manga, Black just beat Vegeta up old school style. In the anime, Black outright impaled him and Vegeta wasn't expecting it. Even then, he saved Goku and Trunks' life with his lost bit of energy, so he did 'fight back' despite having his lung pierce.

Wasn't Vegeta also overpowering Black in their brief encounter even though Black had gone Rose?

The only time Vegeta even overpowered Black was in episode 63.

[HeroR]

Wasn't Vegeta also overpowering Black in their brief encounter even though Black had gone Rose? He only gotten taken out in that encounter because Black took him off guard, in the manga, he just got flat out beaten.

Vegeta did get several hits on on Black Rose and Black was clearly surprised by this. He did no damaged to him, but it wasn't an epic Perfect Cell stomp. Black, ironically, was probably Vegeta's most honorable job fight since he was 'protected' with the 'off-guard' argument. And it wasn't stupid like how Goku tends to drop his guard since up to that point, Black never used a ki blade.

[JazzMazz]

Here's the different thought. In the manga, Black just beat Vegeta up old school style. In the anime, Black outright impaled him and Vegeta wasn't expecting it. Even then, he saved Goku and Trunks' life with his lost bit of energy, so he did 'fight back' despite having his lung pierce.

Wasn't Vegeta also overpowering Black in their brief encounter even though Black had gone Rose?

The only time Vegeta even overpowered Black was in episode 63.

Vegeta clearly had the advantage in their small exchange in 56 until he was taken by surprise.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I've never really had a problem with Vegeta losing to the main bad guy, but for the Vegeta fans out their, at least he actually landed a fair few blows on Black before being taken out.

Vegeta did get several hits on on Black Rose and Black was clearly surprised by this. He did no damaged to him, but it wasn't an epic Perfect Cell stomp. Black, ironically, was probably Vegeta's most honorable job fight since he was 'protected' with the 'off-guard' argument. And it wasn't stupid like how Goku tends to drop his guard since up to that point, Black never used a ki blade.

Exactly. I don't see how his defeat here diminished Vegeta's character or his stature as a capable warrior.

This isn't the Hit fight, where he lost without even scratching his opponent, here he landed several blows and held his own despite Blacks power-up before being jumped by an unexpected attack.

I don't see how its any worse than how he was beaten by Black in the manga.

[Freeza9000]

Wasn't Vegeta also overpowering Black in their brief encounter even though Black had gone Rose?

The only time Vegeta even overpowered Black was in episode 63.

Vegeta clearly had the advantage in their small exchange in 56 until he was taken by surprise.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I've never really had a problem with Vegeta losing to the main bad guy, but for the Vegeta fans out their, at least he actually landed a fair few blows on Black before being taken out.

I doubt Black was remotely taking Vegeta serious at all. He looked slightly irritated if anything. As a matter of fact, Black didn't attempt to put up any defense against Vegeta's assault and ate all of them with ease. This is later evident when there wasn't a single bruise or dent on Black and licked his lips afterwards.

[HeroR]

Exactly. I don't see how his defeat here diminished Vegeta's character or his stature as a capable warrior.

This isn't the Hit fight, where he lost without even scratching his opponent, here he landed several blows and held his own despite Blacks power-up before being jumped by an unexpected attack.

I don't see how its any worse than how he was beaten by Black in the manga.

Going further for a moment, Vados actually says that people are at their most unguarded when their finishing off an opponent and it was a shocked that Jiren didn't have this weakness, meaning that even trained warriors can be caught flatfooted. Vegeta was about to finished Black and his guard was at its lowest when Black struck. So Vegeta's reasons for being impaled makes even more sense if you keep that in mind.

I think the reason why Black beating Vegeta stands out is because of how quick it was, how Black did it (how many people have we seen impaled in Dragon Ball), how out of nowhere is seemed (it was really foreshadowing who Black really was), and Black's put down being the most vicious burn to Vegeta's pride since Freeza made him cry. It also showed that despite Black's playful nature, he will finished people quickly without warning, while most villains would drag it out, kinda of like manga Black.

I doubt Black was remotely taking Vegeta serious at all. He looked slightly irritated if anything. As a matter of fact, Black didn't attempt to put up any defense against Vegeta's assault and ate all of them with ease. This is later evident when there wasn't a single bruise or dent on Black and licked his lips afterwards.

All of Vegeta's job fights usually ends with him not even touching his opponents (Freeza and Hit) or them no selling everything (Cell and Buu). So him hitting Black and Black not tanking like Cell did to him shows Vegeta in a better light. Also, none of them also tried against Vegeta, so this isn't unique to Black.

[JazzMazz]

The only time Vegeta even overpowered Black was in episode 63.

Vegeta clearly had the advantage in their small exchange in 56 until he was taken by surprise.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I've never really had a problem with Vegeta losing to the main bad guy, but for the Vegeta fans out their, at least he actually landed a fair few blows on Black before being taken out.

I doubt Black was remotely taking Vegeta serious at all. He looked slightly irritated if anything. This is all evident when there wasn't a single bruise or dent on Black and licked his lips afterwards.

Yeah, but the scene of Vegeta, the second main lead, being taken out unexpectedly and instantaneously, is certainly far more memorable and striking than his rather drole defeat in the manga, where he just got punched a few times.

If your going to have someone lose to hype up the main villain, this is the way to do it. Thats something I think the anime is actually pretty good at surprisingly enough.

[Freeza9000]

Vegeta clearly had the advantage in their small exchange in 56 until he was taken by surprise.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I've never really had a problem with Vegeta losing to the main bad guy, but for the Vegeta fans out their, at least he actually landed a fair few blows on Black before being taken out.

I doubt Black was remotely taking Vegeta serious at all. He looked slightly irritated if anything. This is all evident when there wasn't a single bruise or dent on Black and licked his lips afterwards.

Yeah, but the scene of Vegeta, the second main lead, being taken out unexpectedly and instantaneously, is certainly far more memorable and striking than his rather drole defeat in the manga, where he just got punched a few times.

If your going to have someone lose to hype up the main villain, this is the way to do it. Thats something I think the anime is actually pretty good at surprisingly enough.

I can agree with that. It's also one of the reasons why I prefer watching the anime and enjoying it as opposed to the manga.

[HeroR]

Yeah, but the scene of Vegeta, the second main lead, being taken out unexpectedly and instantaneously, is certainly far more memorable and striking than his rather drole defeat in the manga, where he just got punched a few times.

If your going to have someone lose to hype up the main villain, this is the way to do it. Thats something I think the anime is actually pretty good at surprisingly enough.

Toyo tends to try copy Toriyama's style a lot, which is probably why his villains come off as very standard Toriyama villains, except he isn't quite talented enough to make them charming like Toriyama did. Although to be fair, the anime tends to fail at this as seen with Super 17 and the Shadow Dragons. Even the villains that tried to break the mold like Baby fall flat and went into very standard Dragon Ball villain areas. That's not even get started on the movie villains who most were expies of Toriyama's Dragon Ball villains or outright clones like Lord Slug. The only original movie villains before Battle of Gods was Dr. Wheelo and maybe Broly since he's based on an idea and not a particular character.

The Super anime writers, however, seemed to be very good at making characters who not only break the mold of the standard Dragon Ball antagonists like Hit and Black, but makes them very charming like Toriyama. It says something that even people who despise Super with the heat of a thousand suns likes or even loves Hit, Black, and even Zamasu (Future and Merged) to a lesser extent.

[Hawk9211]

Yeah, but the scene of Vegeta, the second main lead, being taken out unexpectedly and instantaneously, is certainly far more memorable and striking than his rather drole defeat in the manga, where he just got punched a few times.

If your going to have someone lose to hype up the main villain, this is the way to do it. Thats something I think the anime is actually pretty good at surprisingly enough.

Toyo tends to try copy Toriyama's style a lot, which is probably why his villains come off as very standard Toriyama villains, except he isn't quite talented enough to make them charming like Toriyama did. Although to be fair, the anime tends to fail at this as seen with Super 17 and the Shadow Dragons. Even the villains that tried to break the mold like Baby fall flat and went into very standard Dragon Ball villain areas. That's not even get started on the movie villains who most were expies of Toriyama's Dragon Ball villains or outright clones like Lord Slug. The only original movie villains before Battle of Gods was Dr. Wheelo and maybe Broly since he's based on an idea and not a particular character.

The Super anime writers, however, seemed to be very good at making characters who not only break the mold of the standard Dragon Ball antagonists like Hit and Black, but makes them very charming like Toriyama. It says something that even people who despise Super with the heat of a thousand suns likes or even loves Hit, Black, and even Zamasu (Future and Merged) to a lesser extent.

That’s true even toriyama said that.However,toyotaro is improving hopes,he keeps it up.

[HeroR]

Preview images for 121:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

[Xeogran]

So it seems that Aniraza is the serious fight for Android 17. Well then, bye bye. It was fun to see him in action while it lasted, but his time ends here.

And maybe he's showing so much emotion because of 18's elimination too.

[Hawk9211]

Pretty sure 18 is out.I hope 17 does something with shield,it’s what he has in his hand?

[Ki Breaker]

Did 17 have a shield before?
Or is that a new technique he created one night after a dream where there was another 17 with him?