Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

And, of course, Future Trunks's power.

That too but just like the Piccolo thing it's been over complicated. He just got stronger and got as strong as Goku in the 10 years since he fought Cell. That's it.

Goku never uses SSG power in Base at all in the manga, not even in his fight with Beerus, meaning he hasn't absorbed the power into Base or SS.

The manga had the same Resurrection F story as all other versions. He did absorb the power.

And he suddenly transforms into SSG during his fight with Hit. Further, he tells Frost to train more to become stronger, meaning Frost never trains at all, implying he's closer to Namek Frieza than RoF Frieza.

He transformed into SSJG God during his fight with Beerus in the movie too, it's no different from that and Frost not training doesn't mean he has to be to like Frieza when they're mutants and they have completely different levels of power.

If Frost was anything like Frieza on Namek then why does Piccolo not stand a chance against a tired Frost?

[Chiki]

The manga had the same Resurrection F story as all other versions. He did absorb the power.

And he suddenly transforms into SSG during his fight with Hit. Further, he tells Frost to train more to become stronger, meaning Frost never trains at all, implying he's closer to Namek Frieza than RoF Frieza.

He transformed into SSJG God during his fight with Beerus in the movie too, it's no different from that and Frost not training doesn't mean he has to be to like Frieza when they're mutants and they have completely different levels of power.

If Frost was anything like Frieza on Namek then why does Piccolo not stand a chance against a tired Frost?

I'm willing to bet money that Toyotaro changed his mind since the RoF manga. If Goku was able to absorb SSG power into his Base in the manga, then there would be absolutely no need for him to transform into SSG again. But he did.

The difference is that Goku in the manga doesn't fight Beerus in Base or SS. At all.

Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza, a lot more, because he fights a lot more than Namek Frieza ever did. So he's probably around SPC level which Piccolo never reached after becoming a babysitter for Goten, Trunks and Pan.

[TheMikado]

Yes they do, that's one of the reasons why a lot of people accept the two base theory.

There isn't a lot who think there's a two base theory in the first place let alone for that reason.

80% of this theory comes down to Piccolo's fight with Frost. There's next to nothing else that supports it besides that.

dit: In the manga, they ARE far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.

They never once said or showed that to be true.

which has Cell-level fighters like Frost, Magetta and Cabba

But Frost and Magetta aren't even close to being as low as Cell level fighters so that doesn't make any sense either. Botamo is the only one who could be but he could be anywhere.

Ths is that problem and I've said this multiple times before. The idea that the two base theory is unique this forum or even thread is FALSE. It's in every Dragonball thread and forum right now and evidenced but numerous newbies even in this forum coming in and immediately asking about without knowing anything about what we have been discussing for months now. In fact many people even in this forum and other just naturally assumed the two base theory on their own own. I've seen it in other threads where they just assumed it as truth and are surprised it's even under debate on this forum. The people who think this are much much more then your think but they aren't calling it a two base theory they just assume it's obviously what's happening based on the story and they must have missed the episode where it was explained. Seriously this is NOT a small branch of the fandom that thinks that their is a base form with God Ki and a base form without it.

[ekrolo2]

The manga had the same Resurrection F story as all other versions. He did absorb the power.

And he suddenly transforms into SSG during his fight with Hit. Further, he tells Frost to train more to become stronger, meaning Frost never trains at all, implying he's closer to Namek Frieza than RoF Frieza.

He transformed into SSJG God during his fight with Beerus in the movie too, it's no different from that and Frost not training doesn't mean he has to be to like Frieza when they're mutants and they have completely different levels of power.

If Frost was anything like Frieza on Namek then why does Piccolo not stand a chance against a tired Frost?

I'm willing to bet money that Toyotaro changed his mind since the RoF manga. If Goku was able to absorb SSG power into his Base in the manga, then there would be absolutely no need for him to transform into SSG again. But he did.

The difference is that Goku in the manga doesn't fight Beerus in Base or SS. At all.
Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza, a lot more, because he fights a lot more than Namek Frieza ever did. So he's probably around SPC level which Piccolo never reached after becoming a babysitter for Goten, Trunks and Pan.

I'd also like the point out that given how closely Toyotaro already adapted the movie, he'd have probably gone a noticeably different direction if he had to do the arc again just to justify doing yet another Resurrection F by Toyotaro. The fact the promotional manga isn't sold as part of the Super one also says something. A decision they easily could've made given how its the same writer/artist and he'd have plenty of time to make an additional chapter. But it's obvious the F manga is its own thing.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not saying Saiyan's can't improve through fighting, it's implied that's how their society functioned but given the fact 99.9% of them never cracked the 10 000 mark, it's obviously a long, tedious and highly ineffective way to get stronger.

How would you explain Cabba's powerlevel then? It doesn't seem like he had any special training apart from his Saiyan's home. I would bet he has fought much stronger foes in Universe 6. Now Cabba has become a Super Saiyan because of Vegeta's instructions. I believe those experiences that build up their strength.

That is, sure Saiyans get stronger through fighting a bit quicker than others, but we've never seen a boost like Future Trunks's (below Dabura level to above SS3 Gotenks level in Base) just by fighting a bad guy occasionally for a year. Lol

What about Gohan in Cell Arc? He fought Super Saiyan Goku for less than a year. He went from being weaker than No. 19 to being stronger than Perfect Cell. Or better, Goku had become so strong because he had trouble keeping up with Gohan. A more recent example would be Goku & Vegeta vs. Whis. Part of their training consists on sparring against someone who they can barely touch. Vegeta has showed to be training with Whis in secret again and that might explain why Goku said he has improved in Copy-Vegeta's battle.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not saying Saiyan's can't improve through fighting, it's implied that's how their society functioned but given the fact 99.9% of them never cracked the 10 000 mark, it's obviously a long, tedious and highly ineffective way to get stronger.

How would you explain Cabba's powerlevel then? It doesn't seem like he had any special training apart from his Saiyan's home. I would bet he has fought much stronger foes in Universe 6. Now Cabba has become a Super Saiyan because of Vegeta's instructions. I believe those experiences that build up their strength.

Cabba's power level is total horse shit. An issue that didn't need to be an issue if you merely explained it that Saiyan's in U6 are born with monstrously high Base strengths or just gave the little bastard transformations. The way it's played up in the anime implies this guy has literally never, in all his years of fighting EVER been pressured enough to go Super Saiyan yet his Base power is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks?!

In the immortal words of a book, some British guy once wrote - Shit be fucked in this here state of Denmark yo!

[Bullza]

I'm willing to bet money that Toyotaro changed his mind since the RoF manga. If Goku was able to absorb SSG power into his Base in the manga, then there would be absolutely no need for him to transform into SSG again. But he did.

Is it really Toyotaro's place to change his mind on one of Toriyama's key plot points? Why would he randomly change it when he knows that Toriyama is writing outlines that continue from Resurrection F and Toyotaro changing his mind could heavily conflict with Toriyama's story.

They never said exactly that he absorbed it I to base form or even all of it. In the movie he was a SSJG, time an out, his Base form was vastly more powerful but he still turned back into. SSJG to stop an attack that overwhelmed Base Goku.

Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza, a lot more, because he fights a lot more than Namek Frieza ever did. So he's probably around SPC level which Piccolo never reached after becoming a babysitter for Goten, Trunks and Pan.

We don't know how often Frieza fought in his life. We don't know how often Frost fights, in the manga him fighting bad guys to put on a good act isn't mentioned.

All it'd suggest is untrained Namek Frieza was weaker than SSJ Goku whereas untrained Frost would be around Super Perfect Cell level. That's an enormous difference.

Even with the two base theory Frost is far stronger than Frieza both without training which means that Frost's mutation would be superior.

So that can also be said without the two base theory. The plot called for Frost's natural mutation to be SSJG level. That's very simple.

I'd also like the point out that given how closely Toyotaro already adapted the movie, he'd have probably gone a noticeably different direction if he had to do the arc again just to justify doing yet another Resurrection F by Toyotaro.

And instead of doing a noticeably different version of Resurrection F he skipped the arc making the version of that story that readers were familiar with the story that actually happened.

[ekrolo2]

Is it really Toyotaro's place to change his mind on one of Toriyama's key plot points? Why would he randomly change it when he knows that Toriyama is writing outlines that continue from Resurrection F and Toyotaro changing his mind could heavily conflict with Toriyama's story.

They never said exactly that he absorbed it I to base form or even all of it. In the movie he was a SSJG, time an out, his Base form was vastly more powerful but he still turned back into. SSJG to stop an attack that overwhelmed Base Goku.

I don't think he'd change major beats like how Freeza comes back, Piccolo babysitting Pan, the army fight,... But there are plenty of ways to hit those same beats with totally different ways to go about it. Given how F literally has no fucking script whatsoever besides some notes, and how Toriyama himself criticized this approach, it wouldn't surprise me if Toriyama just let him get away with a lot more stuff than for anything else.

And instead of doing a noticeably different version of Resurrection F he skipped the arc making the version of that story that readers were familiar with the story that actually happened.

I think that was just because Toei already had him do a version of it to promote the film and might've wanted him to skip to U6 to get people hyped for that particular story arc while the re-tellings got finished. Speculation on my part of course.

I'm not going to assume the story everyone's familiar with happened, though, just based on the fact Goku & Vegeta were stated to have worked together to defeat Freeza which is not at all what happens in the movie or TV series.

[Cabba]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

As for the two base theory, I don't see any reason to defend it with such passion. There are people here who buy it, but the ones who disagree are in their total right to do so.

Says who?
This hybrids being better only became a passable theory because of Vegeta/nappa comment at the beginning of Z and Goku praising gohan for his growth as a warrior way beyond his possibilities when he was a kid.
Now dont get me wrong these are all valid reasons to hold such opinion but one should also take into account the other face of the coin before reaching a conclusion: Their respective power level at any given time have to be taken in context, the series has shown time and time again that a Saiyan is as strong as it gets pushed, if its got weak enemies (pre z) is gonna be weak, one should also include plot requirements as a reason for it. Maybe i should limit Saiyans and specify goku/vegeta and the hybrids. Gohan, Future Trunks, Trunks and Goten all were born in a time with greater demands for power and greater foes than what Goku and Vegeta faced when they were kids


Before Saiyan Saga, Gokus and vegeta power showed relatively anemic growth hell gohan was stronger than goku at this point, you could include piccolo as well but he does not quite live up to it in the end.Through his 6 months of training with Kaio Sama sama goku shows exponential growth and then again in his 6 days of Gravity Training. Vegeta Shows exponential growth in power after his fight with Goku and subsequent fights in namek. Gohan shows exponential growth after the Patriarch "unlocks" his hidden power and is said/supposed to match Vegeta in brute force level and then again shows exponential growth (like vegeta) through the fights in namek (Gyniu, Frieza)

Gohan and Vegeta were supposed to be on equal footing after his power unlock (after it they both had same number of near death recovery in namek as well) but for some reason lets say battle experience Vegeta edged him out. Come future trunks defeating frieza as SS, Trunks is much stronger than Vegeta at this point yet Vegeta equals him/surpass slightly? in 3 years of training admittedly with the advantage of gravity. In the same 3 years of training Gohan and Goku do not show much growth, the reason for this? Plot requirement. While Vegeta had the advantage of gravity they had the advantage of sparring partners

Come Time & Spirit room training: Vegeta and Trunks obtain roughly the same results, at first one could be mislead to think Trunks obtained greater results but later Cell specifies paraphrasing that his power boost was worthless and even Vegeta could realize of that, then again Vegeta and Trunks showed the same level while fighting the Cell Jr.

Now Goku and Gohan, goku trains gohan to his own training detriment at first but later offset by having a sparring partner on equal footing as him, and from the very first day informs him of his wish for gohan to surpass him. They come out of the Room of Time and spirit with (surprise surprise) roughly the same level as SS1 with the caveat than Gohan can transform in SS2 why is this? Plot Requirement, so that Gohan becomes the new guardian of earth.

Fast forward 7 years Goku shows exponential growth SS3 and vegeta to a lesser extent SS2, gohan dedicates to what makes him happy (studies/being a scholar) his power deteriorates slightly. Gohan then gets exponential growth through Elders Kaoishin ritual. But one could argue that Vegeta and Goku could get the same or greater results from the ritual and there is nothing implied to assume otherwise, why only Gohan had this ritual then? Plot requirement.

We also never did get to see the full power of Goku SS3 when fighting Kid Bu, he was supposed to power up to reach max power with that 1 minute that Vegeta was buying but goku underestimated the energy consumption while alive, he spent way to much energey already in his fight with buu and could not longer gather the required energy. If he were to gather that energy from the beginning of the battle he would be able to reach his max power as SS3.

My final bullet point brings me to both Goten and trunks, both were born in a time with a greater demand for power and mightier foes as a result they both show more abilities and power than Gohan or future trunks when they were their age. Why? plot requirement

Come Battle of Gods events (3 years later?) Vegeta shows exponential growth surpassing Goku SS3, Goku i imagine perfects/gets better control of SS3. We can see him showing greater abilities than Ultimate Gohan in the dragon wrath movie but i dont know if its considered canon. I read some rumblings about akira taking part on the movie creation but i dont know if they are facts or just bs. Nevertheless this movie flowed in the natural direction the series was gonna take with goku being the hero (insert akira quote here I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part) and the fact that Gohans true desire/wish (brainwashed or not) was to be an scholar

So in essence if i had to pinpoint an advantage the hybrids have is being born with higher base power, and the advantage pure blooded Saiyans have is battle instincts and greater desire for battles: training self improving and meeting stronger foes. I could specify that of all pure saiyans only goku and Vegeta showed such promise but then again that could fall under plot requirement and we never did see hybrids from non prodigy (goku/vegeta) pure saiyans they could be as weak as regular saiyans or show promise as the hybirds we know either way it doesnt matter since they are all dead and non coming back.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Now Goku and Gohan, goku trains gohan to his own training detriment at first but later offset by having a sparring partner on equal footing as him, and from the very first day informs him of his wish for gohan to surpass him. They come out of the Room of Time and spirit with (surprise surprise) roughly the same level as SS1 with the caveat than Gohan can transform in SS2 why is this? Plot Requirement, so that Gohan becomes the new guardian of earth.

Gohan was way stronger than Goku before he transformed into Super Saiyan 2. Goku going all-out against Cell appeared to be holding-back in Gohan's eyes, showing that Goku's performance isn't very impressive to Gohan. Once Gohan unleashes his full-power, everyone sees that he's indeed the superior one. Super Saiyan 2 just made the difference that much greater.

Fast forward 7 years Goku shows exponential growth SS3 and vegeta to a lesser extent SS2, gohan dedicates to what makes him happy (studies/being a scholar) his power deteriorates slightly. Gohan then gets exponential growth through Elders Kaoishin ritual. But one could argue that Vegeta and Goku could get the same or greater results from the ritual and there is nothing implied to assume otherwise, why only Gohan had this ritual then? Plot requirement.

Majin Vegeta had his dormant powers drawn beyond the limits and the most he could do is equal Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Gohan's dormant power being on another level compared to the others is a recurring theme in the story. We've seen from the very beginning that Gohan was naturally more powerful (Raditz saga) than Goku, so a ritual drawing out all of Gohan's dormant powers far beyond his natural limits would undoubtedly put him at a level above Goku.

This is reiterated in Super when Vegeta says Gohan always had the highest potential of them all. If all of them got Old Kaioshin's ritual, Gohan would always come out with the greater power.

[Cabba]

Gohan was way stronger than Goku before he transformed into Super Saiyan 2. Goku going all-out against Cell appeared to be holding-back in Gohan's eyes, showing that Goku's performance isn't very impressive to Gohan. Super Saiyan 2 just made the difference that much greater.

Interesting way to see it, about that i would add few thoughts:
1. This is conjecture, a worthy deduction but not some indisputable fact
2. Gohan and Goku Trained together, plus you could see from the short clips of them going all out in the room of spirit of time. Gohan would not think such a thing unless he knew Goku could give more. You could also argue that reaching SS2 in the room of spirit of time gave him a greater understanding of of power level so on an instinct level he felt the previous fight was easy
3. The only way point 2 mute is if Gohan suppressed his powers while fighting goku as SS in the room of spirit and time, and if you are gonna go down that path whats stopping you from arguing Goku also suppressed himself in the fight against cell?
4. Plot element

Once Gohan unleashes his full-power, everyone sees that he's indeed the superior one.

This is again conjecture
When powering up z fighters are all surprised because none of them expected Gohan to have powers comparable to Goku, Vegeta even expected to be above gohan, anyways thats my take on the matter i dont see any them claiming wow Gohan truly surpassed Goku before the SS2 scene. Kaoisama is heard saying there is the probability that he surpassed Gokus power. If he was clearly superior as SS1 and not on the same realm as goku kaisama would not use such words.

At one point in the fight when Cell threw Gohan under some rocks tells goku to stop fooling around eat a senzu and come back to fight with him. If Gohan previous SS1 power up was superior beyond doubt as you claim cell would not have taken gohan for granted like that

My argument is that as SS1 they were both equal as in the same realm with perhaps some minor differences but nothing ground breaking, I'm not saying is fact but i do think is very possible, its not out of the question to take your theory as plausible either but is far from a fact and not demonstrated at any point during the fight

Majin Vegeta had his dormant powers drawn beyond the limits and the most he could do is equal Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

My answer to this is you cannot compare Babidis trick with the elders ritual and then draw a conclusion from that
The Elder even said that he could gather great amount of power from even weaklings, he bragged about his ritual as the one responsible. Supreme Kaoishin was surprised by gohan after he saw his ss2 transformation and it is implied that underestimated Goku and Vegetas power after The majin meter was filled so fast and he said that he would not have let them fight if he knew the results would be this catastrophic

To add some extra thoughts:
After Vegetas death he was not seen using SS2 transformation again until he raged (by his own means) for a brief moment against kid buu. One could argue that all Babidis possession did was unleash or boost the most superficial of powers one has. In Vegetas case the easiest thing would be to make him go SS2. Becuase in reality thats all that happened vegeta reached the SS2 transformation with babidis magic, he was not given a boost in power or extra strength

Gohan's dormant power being on another level compared to the others is a recurring theme in the story. We've seen from the very beginning that Gohan was naturally more powerful (Raditz saga) than Goku, so a ritual drawing out all of Gohan's dormant powers far beyond his natural limits would undoubtedly put him at a level above Goku.

You have read my post to completion i assume, so i would ask you to point to me where is this is shown or how would you counter it? I agree that is hinted up until the Cell tournament as plot requirement for making Gohan the hero at that time as per Akiras wishes. In my post you can see how i describe said process: At first Gohan is stronger than Goku (Raditz) then Goku exponentially grows, then Gohan is a match for Vegetas ki after the patriarch unlock but Vegeta manages to edge him out due to experience?
Gohan was on equal footing with Vegeta at one point but lagged behind and only after Goku trained him he caught up to them and surpassed. Then you have the majin saga both trunks and goten both are (using your same words) naturally more powerful than gohan at the same age. So yeah i do agree that it is hinted Gohan had potential as a plot element but is not shown at least not in hindsight since the plot requirement changed i.e akiras mind changed

This is reiterated in Super when Vegeta says Gohan always had the highest potential of them all.

I'm glad your brought this up, and is the perfect example of why the hidden power/potential is a plot element or troop if you will. Gohans powers was "unlocked" two times now (patriarch & elder) so if all the potential was drawn from him why is this potential or hidden power being brought up as some sort of mystic ace of spaces sort of deal? I do believe that of the rest of the cast (piccolo and the kids) gohan was the one with the most strength, therefor more use in the tournament

My thoughts on this this
Dragon Ball Super is full of fan service just like this one, is not totally unexpected to hear it even if it never comes to fruition on the show
So i´ll give you this:If akira toriyama changes his mind and wants to make Gohan the hero then yeah Vegetas line will hold meaning but until the day/episode of super in which Gohan becomes the hero that phrase is nothing more than meaningless fan service. I dont think anybody is expecting gohan to be the hero, i dont personally want it, but nothing is set in stone and if akira does indeed changes his mind then there is no questioning it.

Finally, i think we could talk About Gokus potential
Since hes been the hero for such a long time i think his innate traits and perks as a fighter are taken for granted. Goku being able edge out stronger enemies, learning to be invulnerable to past enemies techniques and improve in battle on the fly is a recurring theme in the story in both canon and non canon. Beerus was surprised by Gokus abilities and his innate talent when he absorbed the Gods realm of power after the transformation was over. And towards the end of the movie you can see Beerus and whis talking about Goku and Vegeta potential. See how potential can be used as per plot requirements? In the fight with Hit goku also showed great talent/potential by getting used to the time skip technique while on his base form while vegeta got pummeled as a SSB

[Cabba]

I'm willing to bet money that Toyotaro changed his mind since the RoF manga. If Goku was able to absorb SSG power into his Base in the manga, then there would be absolutely no need for him to transform into SSG again.

I think the way Super its set up it falls perfectly in place with the Battle of Gods
In battle of gods after the SSG transformation vanishes you see Base Goku holding his own against beerus and then powering this with a SS transformation. In this sate Goku is now he is on the realm of power of the Gods, able to hold a fight against beerus. This also falls in line with that interview Akira did about SS2/SS3 irrelevancy and goku realizing the best course of action is to focus his training on his base form and then boost his powers with the traditional SS transformation as the way to go/most efficient use of ki.
What the SSB does is give him full control of God ki and the power boost that comes with it, SSB is the replacement for the SSG red form, in the movie beerus mentions that he was able to absorb the power/energy/go transformation into himself without losing too much power, it is implied then that as SSG he was stronger, and perhaps that momentary SSG transformation gave him a 100% max power boost to stop the attack threatening to destroy earth since he was already fatigued from the fight

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

1. This is conjecture, a worthy deduction but not some indisputable fact

Gohan being stronger is indisputable because it's stated without being contradicted. Gohan thought Goku's full-power was the equivalent of him holding-back, which means he looked really weak. Goku said Gohan was stronger than both he and Cell, with Cell only agreeing that Gohan was above Goku.

2. Gohan and Goku Trained together, plus you could see from the short clips of them going all out in the room of spirit of time. Gohan would not think such a thing unless he knew Goku could give more. You could also argue that reaching SS2 in the room of spirit of time gave him a greater understanding of of power level so on an instinct level he felt the previous fight was easy

When Goku went to full-power, Gohan immediately questioned why everyone was so impressed by Goku's power, as if it wasn't anything special. This is already foreshadowing that Gohan is capable of much more than Goku. Gohan had no idea what his dormant powers could do, and even admits as much when he's talking to Cell. The only power he's fully aware of is his Super Saiyan power.

3. The only way point 2 mute is if Gohan suppressed his powers while fighting goku as SS in the room of spirit and time, and if you are gonna go down that path whats stopping you from arguing Goku also suppressed himself in the fight against cell?

There'd be no point to improvement if they were suppressing their powers while sparring. Goku was out of breath and could no longer fight after he made Cell resort to a barrier. It was also stated that Goku lost a lot of power after doing his Warp Kamehameha. He needed a senzu whereas Cell was confident he could handle a fully refreshed Goku in his tired state. Goku was definitely going all-out like he stated.

4. Plot element

This can be said about anything in regards to what takes place in a story.

This is again conjecture

Cell said Goku wasn't telling a lie when he said Gohan would be stronger than himself. Piccolo later said Gohan's power was #1 when Gohan was fighting Cell. Gohan even made Cell raise his speed to catch him, even though this was unnecessary when fighting Goku.

When powering up z fighters are all surprised because none of them expected Gohan to have powers comparable to Goku, Vegeta even expected to be above gohan, anyways thats my take on the matter i dont see any them claiming wow Gohan truly surpassed Goku before the SS2 scene. Kaoisama is heard saying there is the probability that he surpassed Gokus power. If he was clearly superior as SS1 and not on the same realm as goku kaisama would not use such words.

Cell says Goku was only wrong about Gohan being able to defeat him (Cell), but admits he wasn't untruthful when he said Gohan was stronger than himself.

At one point in the fight when Cell threw Gohan under some rocks tells goku to stop fooling around eat a senzu and come back to fight with him. If Gohan previous SS1 power up was superior beyond doubt as you claim cell would not have taken gohan for granted like that

Gohan wasn't fighting back. He even tells Cell he didn't want to fight. Goku actually fought Cell back,

My argument is that as SS1 they were both equal as in the same realm with perhaps some minor differences but nothing ground breaking, I'm not saying is fact but i do think is very possible, its not out of the question to take your theory as plausible either but is far from a fact and not demonstrated at any point during the fight

Gohan's reluctance to fight Cell back is why he didn't look impressive. If they were really in the same realm, then the full-power of Goku wouldn't have looked like a practice session to Gohan.

My answer to this is you cannot compare Babidis trick with the elders ritual and then draw a conclusion from that. The Elder even said that he could gather great amount of power from even weaklings, he bragged about his ritual as the one responsible. Supreme Kaoishin was surprised by gohan after he saw his ss2 transformation and it is implied that underestimated Goku and Vegetas power after The majin meter was filled so fast and he said that he would not have let them fight if he knew the results would be this catastrophic

While the power-up's are different, both draw out the dormant powers beyond their limits. That's what both say. Old Kaioshin's is just better because it takes you far beyond your limits and allows you to use all of your power without transforming.

After Vegetas death he was not seen using SS2 transformation again until he raged (by his own means) for a brief moment against kid buu. One could argue that all Babidis possession did was unleash or boost the most superficial of powers one has. In Vegetas case the easiest thing would be to make him go SS2. Becuase in reality thats all that happened vegeta reached the SS2 transformation with babidis magic, he was not given a boost in power or extra strength

But that's simply not correct. Vegeta became a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga, though the anime makes him look like a Super Saiyan only. Before he got possessed by Bobbidi, he wondered if he surpassed Cell Games Gohan, which would imply he was a Super Saiyan 2 himself. No way is he surpassing a vastly more powerful Kid Gohan without anything beyond Super Saiyan. As for Bobbidi's ability, you know Vegeta said he let him take over his mind so he could have enough power to equal Goku, right? Knowing this, there's no other way to look at it as anything less than a power boost.

You have read my post to completion i assume, so i would ask you to point to me where is this is shown or how would you counter it? I agree that is hinted up until the Cell tournament as plot requirement for making Gohan the hero at that time as per Akiras wishes. In my post you can see how i describe said process: At first Gohan is stronger than Goku (Raditz) then Goku exponentially grows, then Gohan is a match for Vegetas ki after the patriarch unlock but Vegeta manages to edge him out due to experience?

Guru awakened Gohan's sleeping power, but it wasn't all of his power at that given point. Vegeta had a huge lead over Gohan in early part of Namek, so that's why he was able to edge him out. What happened when Gohan's rage took over while fighting Freeza? Vegeta quickly thought Gohan was the closest to becoming a Super Saiyan. The Freeza saga shows us that Gohan is able to quickly surpass both Vegeta and the newly merged Piccolo when his rage unleashes his dormant power.

Gohan was on equal footing with Vegeta at one point but lagged behind and only after Goku trained him he caught up to them and surpassed. Then you have the majin saga both trunks and goten both are (using your same words) naturally more powerful than gohan at the same age. So yeah i do agree that it is hinted Gohan had potential as a plot element but is not shown at least not in hindsight since the plot requirement changed i.e akiras mind changed

Gohan no longer being in the spotlight doesn't necessarily change that, though. For example, the BoG movie was entirely about Beers and Super Saiyan God, but the writers still made it a point to say Gohan>Pure Saiyans in his BoG profile. There's no reason to include information like that unless it has validity.

I'm glad your brought this up, and is the perfect example of why the hidden power/potential is a plot element or troop if you will. Gohans powers was "unlocked" two times now (patriarch & elder) so if all the potential was drawn from him why is this potential or hidden power being brought up as some sort of mystic ace of spaces sort of deal? I do believe that of the rest of the cast (piccolo and the kids) gohan was the one with the most strength, therefor more use in the tournament

Because Gohan's dormant power would continue to grow the older he becomes. He was only 16 when he became Ultimate. You could say it's all based on plot, but since Gohan never participated in Champa's tournament, what reason would there be to have Vegeta say such a thing if it weren't true? Goku and Vegeta are Gods by this point, yet Gohan's superior is still acknowledged. This just tells us that he could easily be the strongest Saiyan if he continued to train, or rather, received training from Whis.

My thoughts on this this
Dragon Ball Super is full of fan service just like this one, is not totally unexpected to hear it even if it never comes to fruition on the show
So i´ll give you this:If akira toriyama changes his mind and wants to make Gohan the hero then yeah Vegetas line will hold meaning but until the day/episode of super in which Gohan becomes the hero that phrase is nothing more than meaningless fan service. I dont think anybody is expecting gohan to be the hero, i dont personally want it, but nothing is set in stone and if akira does indeed changes his mind then there is no questioning it.

Gohan will never become the hero again. This doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge Vegeta's line, though. It's a Gohan trait that's been acknowledged more than enough times to be considered a fact. The only difference between Gohan and Goku/Vegeta is that he simply doesn't care for battle like they do. His potential as a hybrid still exceeds Pure Saiyans, so Goku being the main character doesn't change that. Also, Goku was once again considered the main character mid-way through the Boo saga and he said Super Boo (the one that Gohan destroyed) was too strong for him to fight without Fusion. Goku was ready to fuse into Vegito just to fight normal Super Boo because he wasn't strong enough to beat him. You already know what Ultimate Gohan did to Super Boo when he fought him.

So, Goku was weaker than Gohan in the Boo saga despite ending the saga as the main hero.

Finally, i think we could talk About Gokus potential
Since hes been the hero for such a long time i think his innate traits and perks as a fighter are taken for granted. Goku being able edge out stronger enemies, learning to be invulnerable to past enemies techniques and improve in battle on the fly is a recurring theme in the story in both canon and non canon. Beerus was surprised by Gokus abilities and his innate talent when he absorbed the Gods realm of power after the transformation was over. And towards the end of the movie you can see Beerus and whis talking about Goku and Vegeta potential. See how potential can be used as per plot requirements? In the fight with Hit goku also showed great talent/potential by getting used to the time skip technique while on his base form while vegeta got pummeled as a SSB

[/quote]

Both Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan in BoG. That's why their potential was acknowledged.

[kinisking]

Well if it means anything, doesnt the daizenshuu say that half saiyans have more potential? And vegeta says gohan has the most potential (I'm assuming he meant out of the adults).

[WittyUsername]

So after being on the air for a year now, it seems that Super's greatest contribution to the franchise was causing the power level debates to be more heated than ever.

Frankly, I would think that the theory about Goku and Vegeta being able to switch between their God ki and their regular ki at will makes the most sense. If Goku is naturally as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his base form, why did he even need to transform when he sparred with Trunks? Surely Trunks couldn't have gotten strong enough to the point where his strength became significantly above anyone from the Abu saga?

[HeroR]

So after being on the air for a year now, it seems that Super's greatest contribution to the franchise was causing the power level debates to be more heated than ever.

Frankly, I would think that the theory about Goku and Vegeta being able to switch between their God ki and their regular ki at will makes the most sense. If Goku is naturally as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his base form, why did he even need to transform when he sparred with Trunks? Surely Trunks couldn't have gotten strong enough to the point where his strength became significantly above anyone from the Abu saga?

Goku didn't need to transform to fight Trunks. The whole point of the sparring session was so Goku can see how strong Black was compared to him. Trunks went Super Saiyan 2, and Goku did the same. Trunks attacked, Goku blocked and took no damage before easily grabbing Trunks' fists. He then showed Trunks the level beyond Super Saiyan 2 and knocked Trunks down. At no time was Goku struggling against Trunks and he only attacked once. The point of the scene was not to show how strong Trunks was in relation to Goku. It was to show strong Black was compared to Goku.

And, seriously, if Goku and Vegeta had god ki in their base forms, then only Beerus and Whis would be able to sense them. That is clearly not the case since the only time the main cast couldn't sense Goku anymore was when he became a Super Saiyan God and when he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Even when Goku was fighting Freeza, they sensed his ki the entire time.

[WittyUsername]

Again, why did Goku even transform at all if he's already more powerful than pretty much anyone from the Buu saga in his base form? That seems like overkill to me.

[HeroR]

Again, why did Goku even transform at all if he's already more powerful than pretty much anyone from the Buu saga in his base form? That seems like overkill to me.

He transformed because he wanted to know how strong Black was compared to him. It wasn't about testing Trunks, it was all just to know how powerful of an opponent Black is.

[WittyUsername]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

[Cabba]

Gohan being stronger is indisputable because it's stated without being contradicted. Gohan thought Goku's full-power was the equivalent of him holding-back, which means he looked really weak. Goku said Gohan was stronger than both he and Cell, with Cell only agreeing that Gohan was above Goku.

Yes of course, there is no denying that but as a SS2, that's were Gokus faith was put on closely after his transformation we are given flashback to the time and spirit scene were Goku realizes of Gohan true power (SS2)
On the second boded, this never happened like that the closest thing to this would be Cell saying I'm realizing Gokus words were not entirely false

When Goku went to full-power, Gohan immediately questioned why everyone was so impressed by Goku's power, as if it wasn't anything special. This is already foreshadowing that Gohan is capable of much more than Goku. Gohan had no idea what his dormant powers could do, and even admits as much when he's talking to Cell. The only power he's fully aware of is his Super Saiyan power.

This is a good point but the rest is conjecture on your part, i take that point
But just the same there are events that do not fit that narrative, namely
Kaiosamas comment, the fight demonstrated by gohan and more importantly Cell complete disregard for Gohan. If Gohan SS1 Truly was as superior beyond doubt that would just crush Goku why would Cell behave that way? First he told him that he should hate his father for putting him in that situation after it knocking him under some rocks he again disregards Gohan by calling out for Goku to stop fooling around eat a senzu and fight. Whats more Piccolo berates goku for putting Gohan in such situation. If Gohan at that point was really way beyond Gokus grasp they all wouldn't be calling out for Goku to fight

How do you explain any of that?

About the second bolded
After Gohan comes unscathed from under the rocks he comes up next to Cell and tells him that they should stop the tournament and there is no point, he does not want to fight, does not want to kill him and does not want to fight like his father followed by saying (paraphrasing here) now i comprehend what my dad meant when he said i was the only capable of defeating you and goes on to tell him stories of the past where his hidden power is shown when he got angry. Concludes he can defeat him now that after training in the room of spirit of time i got stronger and his dad took into account his hidden power to determine it. I'm paraphrasing Gohans words here, so even though he did not know the extent of his power he felt confident he could defeat cell. This is obviously making allusion to the SS2 transformation aka his hidden power at the time. Cell mocks Gohan and begins torturing him by stepping over his head. Yet again here we have z fighters (kuririn in this case) telling Goku to take gohans place

Goku wants gohan to get angry so that he expells those powers, Goku is banking on SS2

There'd be no point to improvement if they were suppressing their powers while sparring. Goku was out of breath and could no longer fight after he made Cell resort to a barrier. It was also stated that Goku lost a lot of power after doing his Warp Kamehameha. He needed a senzu whereas Cell was confident he could handle a fully refreshed Goku in his tired state. Goku was definitely going all-out like he stated.

These are all Good points, but again does not explain why would Gohan not know the true extent of Gokus power if they were fighting full power in the room of spirit of time?
Gohan even questions Gokus fighting style while he does his final attack (barrage of ki blast) Whereas in the past (and future) goku was always able to pull a hail mary and increase his power further or do some smart fighting tactics. In this case he was clearly paving the way for gohan as plot requirement for him to become his successor which is what akira wanted at the time

This can be said about anything in regards to what takes place in a story.

Yes of course and in this particular argument especially more than ever
You come with perfectly good reasons why he could be stronger as SS1 while there are equally plenty of good reasons that counter it or do not fit the narrative
I think it comes down to both bad writing and plot requirement. The main take away for the tournament was Gohan hidden powers as SS2, the whole previous fight (if you can call it that) of gohan was building up to that with anecdotes to spare after that happens nobody really care about

Apparently whether Gohan was stronger or not as SS1 was irrelevant to the producers, the main take away being his hidden power now known as SS2
If the series ended at Cell Saga we would never be talking about this SS1 and SS2 distinction as those are Majin Saga concepts, as far as we knew up until that point Gohan hidden powers (SS2) made him the ultimate warrior, which was the desire of akira at the time.

The fact that the series continued with Goku as the hero is what in hindsight transforms Gohan hidden powered into a mere SS2 transformation

Cell said Goku wasn't telling a lie when he said Gohan would be stronger than himself. Piccolo later said Gohan's power was #1 when Gohan was fighting Cell. Gohan even made Cell raise his speed to catch him, even though this was unnecessary when fighting Goku.

Bolded: Didnt happen, whats more he was doubting gohan throughout most of the ordeal , berating goku at one point
The scene i think you are referring is the one were cell has gohan in an arm lock squeezing tight. Piccolo says to goku i dont care what you say I'm going to help him, to which goku says stop and explains to him that if gohan gets angry , he is going to expel his true power. Then Piccolo goes on to tell him some things and then this: "Even assuming that his powers made him #1 he is still a kid"

The part about speed could be like you said but again is conjecture, i could also argue that since cell was clearly underestimating Gohan since the beginning he used a lower speed than he used with Goku. He did the same thing while fighting goku leaving him surprised yet for some reason goku was still able to catch up to cell speed. Thats what i mean when i say conjecture and not fact, that there is room for interpreting it both ways, is not made clear because again this distinction between Goku and Gohan SS1 does not matter its a mere build up to the meat and potatoes that is his SS2 transformation

Cell says Goku was only wrong about Gohan being able to defeat him (Cell), but admits he wasn't untruthful when he said Gohan was stronger than himself.

he said his words were not entirely bullsshit, dont know what english words best describes it. But he did not say explicitly that he was stronger than Goku like the bolded
Again this could be interpreted to Gohan equaling or being on the same realm of Gokus power which Cell did not expect, Cell expected goku to be #1 and gohan to be much lower than that

Gohan wasn't fighting back. He even tells Cell he didn't want to fight. Goku actually fought Cell back,

Its confusing, because he does fight but not with true intent, but i recognize this as a valuable point and ask your thoughts on this, if Gohan SS1 crushed Gokus Cell would have no longer have any intentions of fighting goku. Cell only got that hint when Gohan told him with the anecdotes that he would be able to defeat him, hinting at a hidden power he was not showing. Which got Cell to want to get this hidden power out of Gohan at all costs, my take away from this is that only after cell learned of this hidden power did he actually take him seriously and let go of the idea of fighting goku

To close up the Cell discussion, whether or not SS1 Gohan and Goku were on equal footing is up for discussion, but lets say they weren't for argument sake. The point i was making in the initial post is that with the obvious exception of Gohan becoming the hero in Cell saga as per the creators wish the theory of hybrids being better never really materializes or at the very least is not a relevant plot element anymore, is not even referenced outside forums discussions, pure saiyans show comparable amount of growth as hybrids in the same frame of time. Like i said in my previous post the advantage i see hybrids have is being born with higher base power, and the advantage pure blooded Saiyans have is battle instincts and greater desire for battles

While the power-up's are different, both draw out the dormant powers beyond their limits. That's what both say. Old Kaioshin's is just better because it takes you far beyond your limits and allows you to use all of your power without transforming.

In vegetas case all it did was awaken the SS2 transformation though, while the Elders ritual gives you a boost unattainable through your own means. This is what the Elderr claims is his signature move, his special power

But that's simply not correct. Vegeta became a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga, though the anime makes him look like a Super Saiyan only. Before he got possessed by Bobbidi, he wondered if he surpassed Cell Games Gohan, which would imply he was a Super Saiyan 2 himself. No way is he surpassing a vastly more powerful Kid Gohan without anything beyond Super Saiyan. As for Bobbidi's ability, you know Vegeta said he let him take over his mind so he could have enough power to equal Goku, right? Knowing this, there's no other way to look at it as anything less than a power boost.

First bolded To which scene or scenes are you referring to?
The rest is all conjecture on your part based on some random thought vegeta made likely for the sake of the plot. I can counter it with my own conjecture, if vegeta truly was SS2 he would have beyond doubt surpassed or bare minimum equaled Gohan in his own mind. Same as when he transformed as SS he surpassed Goku in his own mind/pride. Vegeta was banking on Gohan not training for 7 years to make this statement, vegeta surely surpassed Perfect Cell (pre explosion) with his SS transformation but no quite SS2 yet. Daboora fight also alludes to him, he tell gohan that all he does is increase his power implying daboraa is not worried about him while vegeta is angered by his incompetent fighting and Golu saying he forgot how to fight. Vegeta could have been banking on that when he made that statement as well

Second Bolded: Gokus power up to defeat Jakon caught vegetas attention as stated later in the vegeta vs goku fight. In this scene is clearly hinted Goku use SS2 transformation which made vegeta realize Goku had surpassed him yet again. Vegeta then calculated that babidis magic would be able to make him transform ss2

We can argue to eternity with conjectures without explicit evidence about the extent of babidis magic. My point being that elders ritual is not the same as babidis and you cannot compare them, is apples to oranges, by that logic are you gonna group the Patriarchs unlock on the same category?

Guru awakened Gohan's sleeping power, but it wasn't all of his power at that given point. Vegeta had a huge lead over Gohan in early part of Namek, so that's why he was able to edge him out. What happened when Gohan's rage took over while fighting Freeza? Vegeta quickly thought Gohan was the closest to becoming a Super Saiyan. The Freeza saga shows us that Gohan is able to quickly surpass both Vegeta and the newly merged Piccolo when his rage unleashes his dormant power.

But again being on equal footing vegeta was able to surpass gohan greatly on this saga, that is all true about the fight with frieza but they were supposed to be on the same level after Guru is it? (i just call him the patriarch) they had the same amount of near death recoveries. I do agree its hinted his hidden power, but in hindsight to were we are now today if we analyze the situation binary sort of way this saga shows equal amount of growing in all 3 saiyans (vegeta, goku and gohan) i cant take one and say wow he really did grow the most or showed the most promise

Gohan no longer being in the spotlight doesn't necessarily change that, though. For example, the BoG movie was entirely about Beers and Super Saiyan God, but the writers still made it a point to say Gohan>Pure Saiyans in his BoG profile. There's no reason to include information like that unless it has validity.

Who is responsible for the website? when you say writers do you mean akira? or the other one who writed the manga i dont know his name? what did it say exactly? In my opinion a site like that is fanservice for fans coming from Majin Buu saga. Especially in a movie were Vegeta is stated to have surpassed Goku and then at the end Whish and Beerus talk about Vegetas and Gokus potential hinting at whats to come

Because Gohan's dormant power would continue to grow the older he becomes. He was only 16 when he became Ultimate. You could say it's all based on plot, but since Gohan never participated in Champa's tournament, what reason would there be to have Vegeta say such a thing if it weren't true? Goku and Vegeta are Gods by this point, yet Gohan's superior is still acknowledged. This just tells us that he could easily be the strongest Saiyan if he continued to train, or rather, received training from Whis.

I think it is plot
Why would Whis and beerus talk about Goku/vegeta potential and not Gohan? why would they say it if it werent true? If you place such value on Vegetas word what about Whis and beerus themselves?
Last bolded this is a good example of you cant have your cake and eat it too
Do you think Gohan will be strongest saiyan in super at any given point? I mean if Vegetas words were anything more than meaningless fan service why would gohan not become the strongest saiyan in DBS? I'm not ruling it out as impossible anything can happen. So we could freeze this argument up until that happens in Super and you would be right.
What you cant do however is put your head in the sand sort to speak to base your theory in old content where the intent of the creator was to make Gohan the hero to use it as valid reason to say things like "even if Gohan not the strongest in the entirety of DBS hes is still the one that could be strongest", there has been a paradigm shift ever since, why make such claims if you think it will never materialize on DBS. The reason why at one point he was the strongest is plot just like any hero

You also cant go around using dormant power as some infinite ammo, by its very definition something that is dormant once awoken cannot be re awoken subsequently "gohan he would be the strongest saiyan" thanks to this unlimited dormant power? Why stop there if such a thing is available why not surpass whis and the omni king? Statements like that hold no water and are entirely 100% conjectures. Yes i do think that if Gohan trained with whis he could be as strong as goku and vegeta so could goten and trunks. Who is the strongest hero would be up to the plot which is up until today Goku

Gohan will never become the hero again. This doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge Vegeta's line, though. It's a Gohan trait that's been acknowledged more than enough times to be considered a fact. The only difference between Gohan and Goku/Vegeta is that he simply doesn't care for battle like they do. His potential as a hybrid still exceeds Pure Saiyans, so Goku being the main character doesn't change that. Also, Goku was once again considered the main character mid-way through the Boo saga and he said Super Boo (the one that Gohan destroyed) was too strong for him to fight without Fusion. Goku was ready to fuse into Vegito just to fight normal Super Boo because he wasn't strong enough to beat him. You already know what Ultimate Gohan did to Super Boo when he fought him.
So, Goku was weaker than Gohan in the Boo saga despite ending the saga as the main hero.

So what about Whis and Beerus line? shouldn't we acknowledge that as well? are you gonna deny DBS is full of throwback fan service like that?

Second bolded is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it really does not hold weight anymore there is no point in saying someone is the greatest and not showing it, likewise like i mentioned previously ever since Z Goku has shown exponential growth you cant argue that Gohan grew more in the same amount of time for example

Third Bolded: This has been the case up until Cell saga where the intention of the creator was to make Gohan the hero, that is no linger the case. In Majin Sagan the only one talking about Gohans potential was Supreme Kai after he saw his SS2 transformation, the same guy that underestimated goku and vegeta and was surprised to see goku effortlessly swing the Z sword.

I dont really want to get in Kid Bu vs Super Bus and Gokus lies throughout that saga. Just gonna point out a few things for clarity sake, when he made the comment about fusion they still had not recovered Gohan and the others so buuhan was still in effect, vegeta then proceeded to destroy the earring. I put it up to plot, why would they not bring Gohan to crush Kid bu? Plot. Lastly we did not get to see Goku max power as SS3

For argument sake, Ultimate Gohan the strongest. Still it was not obtained by his own means its used as part of the plot and later downplayed: Gohan not fighting kid bu, Vegeta calling goku #1 kid bus defeat episode titled Son Goku is Strongest After All!! Majin Boo is Eliminated

But ok lets be practical were are you getting with this? is there a point? Like you expect gohan to be the strongest saiyan without being the hero? I'm not ruling out anything just wanna know your position in all this, you evidently believe he is the one do you think this is gonna materialize in some way without necessarily becoming the hero?

Finally keep in mind DBS is a series aimed a kids, many of which probably dont know nothing about DBZ, for them up until now Goku and Vegeta are the main hero's, and some old concepts about Gohan hidden power dont fly anymore

Both Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan in BoG. That's why their potential was acknowledged.

But what about the talk of potential as some abstract mystic thing? i mean Beerus and Goku SSG were way beyond Vegeta yet his potential was still acknowledged. I think this is due to the plot to pave the way for later events evidenced up until now. Wouldn't this imply that the plot demands they be the ones with the potential now. You also didn't acknowledge any of the traits i mentioned about gokus latent talent, abilities, perks that give him enough ·"potential" to make him number 1 on equal footing/situation with the other hybrids/saiyans