Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
SPC = probably around 2x of Gohan's normal SSJ2, seeing as Gohan SSJ2 half power enraged could defeat SPC. So Goku (weaker than Gohan, unless the quote asked by mjb is provided) with Super Kaioken would be weaker than Gohan's normal SSJ2, aka half of SPC, aka he would take no damage. Nappa vs Goku, Vegeta vs Goku, Goku vs Freeza, etc etc are all examples of this. Against Nappa he tanked a ki blast with no damage, Vegeta vs Goku (before kaioken) Vegeta also took no damage, Goku vs Freeza using a kaioken which, apparently, has a 2x multiplier, means Freeza at 2x Goku before adding kamehameha tanked a 120 million blast with 60 million power level and only singed his hand.
Wait, what? Gohan at half power could lose badly to SPC and beat him with help from Vegeta. But that aside, how did you get SPC being twice as strong as non-crippled SS2 Gohan?
Goku tanked nothing against Nappa. Also, another example of why Paikuhan being this strong makes sense from the Cell fight: Super Perfect Cell, generally agreed to be weaker than Gohan, fires a quick uncharged blast. Gohan sees the blast coming, takes it, and takes a shit ton of damage. Goku uses an amplified and charged Kamehameha against Paikuhan. Paikuhan doesn't see it coming and takes no damage at all.
Goku was still shown to be able to trade blows and fight with him. Of course Paikuhan was stronger and had the advantage, but if we go by the level he previously showed against SPC, he should be able to one shot Goku easily. Goku would not be able to touch him either. Paikuhan at one point can't push Goku back in base.
Goku didn't have time to train as he went right to the tournament. So a SSJ level vs SSJ2 level fight would end in Goku getting destroyed.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue May 14, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
SPC = probably around 2x of Gohan's normal SSJ2, seeing as Gohan SSJ2 half power enraged could defeat SPC. So Goku (weaker than Gohan, unless the quote asked by mjb is provided) with Super Kaioken would be weaker than Gohan's normal SSJ2, aka half of SPC, aka he would take no damage. Nappa vs Goku, Vegeta vs Goku, Goku vs Freeza, etc etc are all examples of this. Against Nappa he tanked a ki blast with no damage, Vegeta vs Goku (before kaioken) Vegeta also took no damage, Goku vs Freeza using a kaioken which, apparently, has a 2x multiplier, means Freeza at 2x Goku before adding kamehameha tanked a 120 million blast with 60 million power level and only singed his hand.
Wait, what? Gohan at half power could lose badly to SPC and beat him with help from Vegeta. But that aside, how did you get SPC being twice as strong as non-crippled SS2 Gohan?
Goku tanked nothing against Nappa. Also, another example of why Paikuhan being this strong makes sense from the Cell fight: Super Perfect Cell, generally agreed to be weaker than Gohan, fires a quick uncharged blast. Gohan sees the blast coming, takes it, and takes a shit ton of damage. Goku uses an amplified and charged Kamehameha against Paikuhan. Paikuhan doesn't see it coming and takes no damage at all.
I believe, as well as others on the site, that Gohan probably had a rage boost on top of his normal SSJ2. After all, SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier. Once had lost his arm and half his ki, he'd be at weaker than his SSJ power. Which is WAYYY weaker than SPC, and weaker than FPPC. Meaning he had to have at least a 2x rage boost on top of his normal SSJ2. Otherwise it'd go something like
As you can see, SPC was most likely stronger than Gohan normally, because a half power SSJ2 Gohan beat him.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think Goku could tank 2 kamehameha's from SPC and still be able to fight and fire his own kamehameha? I really, really doubt it.
Goku was still shown to be able to trade blows and fight with him. Of course Paikuhan was stronger and had the advantage, but if we go by the level he previously showed against SPC, he should be able to one shot Goku easily. Goku would not be able to touch him either. Paikuhan at one point can't push Goku back in base.
Goku did nothing that Nappa didn't do against him (x2 gap) or that Vegeta couldn't do against first form Freeza (x2.12 gap).
Also, Pikkon was obviously very suppressed against base Goku. There's no way removing his weights made him over fifty times as strong.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think Goku could tank 2 kamehameha's from SPC and still be able to fight and fire his own kamehameha? I really, really doubt it.
If Cell wasn't going out of his way to kill him and was acting extra arrogant and taunting. Again, Goku didn't do anything against Pikkon that hasn't been done with a x2 gap or more before, and surviving an attack with heavy injuries really doesn't say a lot about your power. Nappa kept getting back up after the beatings from Goku (he didn't even take as much damage as Goku did from Pikkon's attacks), and Vegeta actually shocked Kid Buu (x4 gap) with his durability. The only reason Goku ever managed to do anything was because he was a skilled fighter with a few useful techniques (such as Super Kaioken, Instant Transmission, and the Kamehameha).
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue May 14, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Let's make this simple. Goku is at the same difference it takes for Gohan to one shot a Cell Junior. Paikuhan being above SPC would mean that one clean shot to Goku's face, and he's dead. Paikuhan would never need to resort to any of his attacks to beat Goku. He could just one shot him at SPC level.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Let's make this simple. Goku is at the same difference it takes for Gohan to one shot a Cell Junior. Paikuhan being above SPC would mean that one clean shot to Goku's face, and he's dead.
Doubt it. Gohan was well over four times as strong as a Cell Junior. The gap between Pikkon and Goku doesn't have to be that big. Like I said I equate it to Goku vs Nappa with elements of 1st form Freeza vs Vegeta. Goku could not instantly die from casual slaps from Pikkon, run away, and at one time catch his punch, but he couldn't actually damage or trouble him in the least.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Let's make this simple. Goku is at the same difference it takes for Gohan to one shot a Cell Junior. Paikuhan being above SPC would mean that one clean shot to Goku's face, and he's dead.
Doubt it. Gohan was well over four times as strong as a Cell Junior. The gap between Paikuhan and Goku doesn't have to be that big. Like I said I equate it to Goku vs Nappa with elements of 1st form Freeza vs Vegeta.
Super Pefect Cell could kill Vegeta with a weak blast. Goku maybe 2 times stronger then Vegeta at that point (more likely less) and Cell could still easily beat MSSJ Goku no problem. Paikuhan who is stronger would have an even easier time. One burning shot to Goku's face and it's over. If that attack did that to Super Perfect Cell, it will wreck Goku who can't keep up with Paikuhan.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
...and? Yeah, SPC, who's somewhere around five times Vegeta's strength, could one-shot him. What's your point? Also, Pikkon never used the Burning Shot against Goku. Since Goku is half his strength and the Burning Shot is likely amplified, it's understandable.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:...and? Yeah, SPC, who's somewhere around five times Vegeta's strength, could one-shot him. What's your point?
Paikuhan being that strong can Burning Shot Goku once in the face and end the fight like that. We already know Goku can't keep up with Paikuhan. All Paikuhan has to is that and it's over.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Pikkon never did that though. He didn't need to since he was already so much stronger than Goku. Again, nothing Goku did in this fight can't be done with a x2 or more gap. Also, Pikkon seemed to be having fun taunting Goku and was obviously heavily suppressed at the beginning of the fight. Him just ending the fight quickly with a haxxed technique wouldn't be fun, you know.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Paikuhan never did that though. He didn't need to since he was already so much stronger than Goku. Again, nothing Goku did in this fight can't be done with a x2 or more gap.
It's more likely Toei doesn't give a shit. They made Mutaito stronger then Goku in filler.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah, so? That's an obvious contradiction but Pikkon vs Goku is perfectly plausible with Pikkon being Super Perfect Cell level, making everything make sense.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yeah, so? That's an obvious contradiction but Paikuhan vs Goku is perfectly plausible with Paikuhan being Super Perfect Cell level, making everything make sense.
Not really. Draken you can take over. You really think Goku could have fought SPC when he can't even keep up with PC before going full power. He would not be able to touch Paikuhan if he had such a hard time with Supressed PC who wasn't even at full strength.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Do we know for sure that Pikkon is above Super Perfect Cell? Is it possible that Cell wasn't at full power at the time? I just remember Cell saying that he could defeat Goku, which is something he could have done even before getting his zenkai. I don't recall him having the lightning or anything either. It has been a long time since I've seen that fight though. Is there a line that says he's still at full power?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Do we know for sure that Paikuhan is above Super Perfect Cell? Is it possible that Cell wasn't at full power at the time? I just remember Cell saying that he could defeat Goku, which is something he could have done even before getting his zenkai. I don't recall him having the lightning or anything either. It has been a long time since I've seen that fight though. Is there a line that says he's still at full power?
Not that I have seen. Which is why its more likely he wasn't FP, More like half since it is all he would need.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Not really. Draken you can take over. You really think Goku could have fought SPC when he can't even keep up with PC before going full power. He would not be able to touch Paikuhan if he had such a hard time with Supressed PC who wasn't even at full strength.
He wasn't keeping up with Pikkon at all. Pikkon was tanking Goku's amplified attacks with no damage.
Do we know for sure that Paikuhan is above Super Perfect Cell? Is it possible that Cell wasn't at full power at the time? I just remember Cell saying that he could defeat Goku, which is something he could have done even before getting his zenkai. I don't recall him having the lightning or anything either. It has been a long time since I've seen that fight though. Is there a line that says he's still at full power?
Something somewhere says that he retained all of the power he had while living. While that doesn't point to him being at full power at the time, he was still clearly alive after Pikkon hit him. If he was actually stronger than Pikkon then he could've just gotten up, powered up, and layed the smack down. But he didn't. He just sat there.
Also, the point of that scene was that Pikkon was really strong, not that he got lucky once. Otherwise Goku wouldn't make a big deal of beating Cell, since according to you he could've done the same thing Pikkon did. Also the Kais probably would've been very surprised, and Cell would be a dumbass.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Not really. Draken you can take over. You really think Goku could have fought SPC when he can't even keep up with PC before going full power. He would not be able to touch Paikuhan if he had such a hard time with Supressed PC who wasn't even at full strength.
He wasn't keeping up with Paikuhan at all. Paikuhan was tanking Goku's amplified attacks with no damage.
Goku was also tanking his attacks too. Attacks that should do severe damage at his level don't even cripple Goku. He even tanks his best attack (which should do more damage then burning shot) twice. Goku should not be able to do that. Which is why Paikuhan most likely caught Cell of Guard who was most likely at half power.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
"Tanking"? Is that what you call being beaten so hard that you're covered in bruises and blood and can barley stand? While your opponent isn't even going seriously and taunting you all the while, deeming you not even worthy of his fire kick or whatever that was? The most impressive thing Goku could do was not die. Nappa could do the same thing against Goku with a x2 gap.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:"Tanking"? Is that what you call being beaten so hard that you're covered in bruises and blood and can barley stand?
I consider tanking as being able to take an attack and survive. Vegeta tanked Goku's 4x Kaioken Kamehameha. I didn't say Goku took no damage. Also Goku survived Paikuhans ultimate attack twice (fyi more powerful then burning shot and amplify his power more as described by Goku). That's like saying Goku could survive Super Perfect Cell's Super Kamehameha twice. Goku even said his power skyrockets when he uses Thunder Flash bringing it beyond a 2x gap as you call it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
What says that it's more powerful than Burning Shot? I thought Burning Shot was similar to Kaio-Ken? And I don't remember Goku surviving two. He survived one with heavy injuries and dodged a second one.
Nappa was able not to die when getting hammered by Goku. He even "tanked" two hits from kaio-ken x2 Goku (x4 gap). It's not that impressive. Same with Vegeta vs Kid Buu.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:What says that it's more powerful than Burning Shot? I thought Burning Shot was similar to Kaio-Ken? And I don't remember Goku surviving two. He survived one with heavy injuries and dodged a second one.
Wrong it was 3 times he used it on Goku and Goku took the first 2 back to back. Goku dodged it the third time. Also Burning shot was never described like Kaioken. Paikuhan even gets tired against Goku, he sweats and pants like Goku does even though he had the advantage. If you believe in attack multiplications, then that 2x gap will get even wider with his ultimate attack.
*Thunder Flash
Category: ki manipulation
People: Paikuhan
Special Characteristics: It defeats the enemy by attacking them with flames that burn with dazzling light. A technique he used against Goku in the finals of the Anoyo-ichi Budoukai. As Paikuhan’s ultimate secret weapon, even Goku had to use all his might to endure it. However, Goku took advantage of the unguarded moment when the technique is fired to launch a Kamehameha and achieve a turnabout victory. (Daizenshuu 5, p.145)
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
