Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

Trunks fought Black for over a year. He knows how strong Black is, Goku doesn't. So Goku asked Trunks to spar with him to see how he compared to Black, who Trunks have fought several times. He transformed to see if Black was as strong as him as a Super Saiyan 3, that is it. Trunks standing a chance against base from Goku is irrelevant.

[Cabba]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

Thats precisely there reason (assuming Trunks is Majin Saga SS2 tier)
Gokus first objective was to determine trunks power and whether Black is Majin Tier or lower/higher whether this black. Trunks Transformed SS2, so goku decided to use that "obsolete transformation" as well, he then later used SS3 to see if black was Majin tier. After trunks told him he is possibly stronger thats all the info Goku could gather without fighting black so there would be no point in fighting Trunks with his God realm powers

To quote a previous post of mine on the matter:

tl;dr dismissive version
It was interesting fun to watch fan service
Long Version:
Goku was surprised to see Trunks SS2, so most likely he expected Black to be a Majin Tier villain i.e no in the realm of the gods, not able to hold a battle with someone who has achieved god power.

Since goku did not use his stronger base form or Super Saiyan (yellow) form with god powers. My theory on this is that Goku wanted to measure Blacks power the old way i.e SS, SS2, SS3 After trunks told him he might be as strong as SS3 or greater and knowing Trunks power level. Goku came to the conclusion that Black is above SS3 and if he he is on the gods realm of power, trunks would no be able to judge/gauge where Black sits on gods realm of power level. i.e Goku needs to fight black to see where he sits. if SS3 was already too much for trunks, there is no point in using the god realm powers (Stronger base and SSYellow with god powers) would have produce the same 1 hit defeat

Following what we saw in the Battle of Gods movie and arc, it makes not sense for SS3 to be stronger than Goku SS yellow with gods power. So my conclusion is goku intentionally suppressed his god powers
Tell me what do you think of this theory, I'm open to anyone's take on this

[HeroR]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

Thats precisely there reason (assuming Trunks is Majin Saga SS2 tier)
Gokus first objective was to determine trunks power and whether Black is Majin Tier or lower/higher whether this black. Trunks Transformed SS2, so goku decided to use that "obsolete transformation" as well, he then later used SS3 to see if black was Majin tier. After trunks told him he is possibly stronger thats all the info Goku could gather without fighting black so there would be no point in fighting Trunks with his God realm powers

To quote a previous post of mine on the matter:

tl;dr dismissive version
It was interesting fun to watch fan service
Long Version:
Goku was surprised to see Trunks SS2, so most likely he expected Black to be a Majin Tier villain i.e no in the realm of the gods, not able to hold a battle with someone who has achieved god power.

Since goku did not use his stronger base form or Super Saiyan (yellow) form with god powers. My theory on this is that Goku wanted to measure Blacks power the old way i.e SS, SS2, SS3 After trunks told him he might be as strong as SS3 or greater and knowing Trunks power level. Goku came to the conclusion that Black is above SS3 and if he he is on the gods realm of power, trunks would no be able to judge/gauge where Black sits on gods realm of power level. i.e Goku needs to fight black to see where he sits. if SS3 was already too much for trunks, there is no point in using the god realm powers (Stronger base and SSYellow with god powers) would have produce the same 1 hit defeat

Following what we saw in the Battle of Gods movie and arc, it makes not sense for SS3 to be stronger than Goku SS yellow with gods power. So my conclusion is goku intentionally suppressed his god powers
Tell me what do you think of this theory, I'm open to anyone's take on this

Goku doesn't have two base forms. If Goku's base was infused with god powers like some keep suggesting, then most of the cast wouldn't be able to feel it. Goku fought Beerus both as a Super Saiyan and in his base form and did quite well while he got two-shot as a Super Saiyan 3. And everyone felt it, when before they couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Goku. The only form that has god energy is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. There is no god + base form since if such a thing existed it would have been used against Freeza's final form. However, in that battle, everyone felt Goku's power until he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and they specifically note that they couldn't feel Goku anymore.

Meaning, Goku's base is naturally very strong now, no god ki needed. He didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Trunks because Trunks can't sense god ki at his level. To Trunks, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would only look like Super Saiyan with blue hair.

[Chiki]

if Goku's base was infused with god powers like some keep suggesting, then most of the cast wouldn't be able to feel it.

We already talked about this many pages ago. Base-SSG Goku either has regular ki mixed with godly ki or he makes up for the loss of SSG's godly ki with his regular ki (remember how strong Frieza and Hit are without godly ki?). Goku is a genius because, after experiencing SSG, when he lost the SSG godly ki he naturally made up for it with his regular ki. Or mixed it or w/e.

Is it really Toyotaro's place to change his mind on one of Toriyama's key plot points? Why would he randomly change it when he knows that Toriyama is writing outlines that continue from Resurrection F and Toyotaro changing his mind could heavily conflict with Toriyama's story.

They never said exactly that he absorbed it I to base form or even all of it. In the movie he was a SSJG, time an out, his Base form was vastly more powerful but he still turned back into. SSJG to stop an attack that overwhelmed Base Goku.

Given that Toriyama already said Goku absorbed SSG power and won't transform into it again, but he DID transform into it in Toyotaro's manga, it's obvious that Toyotaro convinced Toriyama to change the power levels in the recent Super manga. Obviously this contradicts the RoF manga because he didn't transform into SSG in the RoF manga, but that just means Toyotaro changed his mind.

We don't know how often Frieza fought in his life. We don't know how often Frost fights, in the manga him fighting bad guys to put on a good act isn't mentioned.

All it'd suggest is untrained Namek Frieza was weaker than SSJ Goku whereas untrained Frost would be around Super Perfect Cell level. That's an enormous difference.

Even with the two base theory Frost is far stronger than Frieza both without training which means that Frost's mutation would be superior.

So that can also be said without the two base theory. The plot called for Frost's natural mutation to be SSJG level. That's very simple.

Even in the manga, Frost's good guy act implies that he fights more often than Frieza, which explains the power gap.

In the manga, Frost isn't SSG level anyway, so no problems.

[ekrolo2]

Y'know, I really miss the old days when the new form was the strongest and it didn't fundamentally and needlessly change how all the ones before it worked.

[Chiki]

Oh and I forgot to add. Cabba (in the manga and probably in the anime) himself is at the level of the Base Saiyans before the RoF arc, making him weaker than Namek Final Form Frieza (since Beerus said Base Goku was weaker in BoG). Which makes a lot more sense, and is still very impressive, and explains why Vegeta said he shouldn't be coming to the tournament with that power level.

[ekrolo2]

Oh and I forgot to add. Cabba (in the manga and probably in the anime) himself is at the level of the Base Saiyans before the RoF arc, making him weaker than Namek Final Form Frieza (since Beerus said Base Goku was weaker in BoG). Which makes a lot more sense, and is still very impressive, and explains why Vegeta said he shouldn't be coming to the tournament with that power level.

I suspect Goku and Vegeta are probably stronger than Freeza on Namek in the manga. We see Whis train them in their base forms so I'd say they're creeping into early Android Saga power levels in their base forms now.

[Hugo Boss]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

Says who?
This hybrids being better only became a passable theory because of Vegeta/nappa comment at the beginning of Z and Goku praising gohan for his growth as a warrior way beyond his possibilities when he was a kid.
Now dont get me wrong these are all valid reasons to hold such opinion but one should also take into account the other face of the coin before reaching a conclusion: Their respective power level at any given time have to be taken in context, the series has shown time and time again that a Saiyan is as strong as it gets pushed, if its got weak enemies (pre z) is gonna be weak, one should also include plot requirements as a reason for it. Maybe i should limit Saiyans and specify goku/vegeta and the hybrids. Gohan, Future Trunks, Trunks and Goten all were born in a time with greater demands for power and greater foes than what Goku and Vegeta faced when they were kids

I don't know if you are disagreeing or just corroborating my point. Okay, the story's demands is what suggested those hybrids have higher potentials when needed. Goten and Trunks are even more special cases because they didn't have a tail, thus allowing them to develop more quickly. The rest you see, when they stop training Goku and Vegeta surpass them, but they could easily catch up if they put their mind into it.

[Chiki]

Oh and I forgot to add. Cabba (in the manga and probably in the anime) himself is at the level of the Base Saiyans before the RoF arc, making him weaker than Namek Final Form Frieza (since Beerus said Base Goku was weaker in BoG). Which makes a lot more sense, and is still very impressive, and explains why Vegeta said he shouldn't be coming to the tournament with that power level.

I suspect Goku and Vegeta are probably stronger than Freeza on Namek in the manga. We see Whis train them in their base forms so I'd say they're creeping into early Android Saga power levels in their base forms now.

Then how did Cabba become that strong in Base without receiving any kind of special training?

[ekrolo2]

Oh and I forgot to add. Cabba (in the manga and probably in the anime) himself is at the level of the Base Saiyans before the RoF arc, making him weaker than Namek Final Form Frieza (since Beerus said Base Goku was weaker in BoG). Which makes a lot more sense, and is still very impressive, and explains why Vegeta said he shouldn't be coming to the tournament with that power level.

I suspect Goku and Vegeta are probably stronger than Freeza on Namek in the manga. We see Whis train them in their base forms so I'd say they're creeping into early Android Saga power levels in their base forms now.

Then how did Cabba become that strong in Base without receiving any kind of special training?

He probably isn't. After their short scuffle, Vegeta looks pretty much fine while a single hit from Vegeta makes Cabba clench his left arm and out of breath. My guess is Vegeta was going somewhat easy on him during their brief fight in their base forms.

[TheMikado]

OK, this needs to be said because its ridiculous at this point. In EVERY OTHER Dragonball media we are ALWAYS given an indicator at some point when a character is suppressing their power. Typically the character explicitly says it. We have had explicit comparisons over the years fairly consistently. So its incredibly odd for people to make plot devices in order to support their power narrative. I understand the two base theory is just that and a way to explain the poor writing in universe and I'm fine with that. What I do have a problem with is people stating that X character suppressed higher level forms to less than 1% of its full power and foolishness like that. I don't know if its the fan base or Super making it worse although I suppose its partially responsible when you have 10% Rageta and SSBxKKx10 all in the same media and still below Beerus....

Anyway, this narrative of characters holding back to the less than 1% levels you're talking about only occurs rarely during stealth or introductions. Never during battle or sparring. I don't even think its possible to suppress their ki to that level. If Goku's base is beyond SSJ3 DBZ levels and Trunks SSJ2 is like Majin Vegeta SSJ2 levels then as Goku transforms/powers up he would have to actually have to POWER DOWN BELOW his forms power output just to not completely and accidental destroy Trunks. (In universe of course) This really makes zero sense from every piece of Dragonball related media we have ever seen ever created. Its almost like its not even written by Toriyama at all at this point. This is NOT his MO.

[WittyUsername]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

Trunks fought Black for over a year. He knows how strong Black is, Goku doesn't. So Goku asked Trunks to spar with him to see how he compared to Black, who Trunks have fought several times. He transformed to see if Black was as strong as him as a Super Saiyan 3, that is it. Trunks standing a chance against base from Goku is irrelevant.

That still makes little sense. Why would it matter how Black compares to a SSJ3? Exactly how much power was Goku holding back when he hit Trunks in that forms, if he truly was already more powerful than Vegetto in his base form?

[HeroR]

That really doesn't make any sense. How would transforming give him any better of an idea of how strong Black is? If Trunks supposedly wouldn't have stood a chance against Goku in his base form, what difference would it make for him to show off an obsolete transformation?

Trunks fought Black for over a year. He knows how strong Black is, Goku doesn't. So Goku asked Trunks to spar with him to see how he compared to Black, who Trunks have fought several times. He transformed to see if Black was as strong as him as a Super Saiyan 3, that is it. Trunks standing a chance against base from Goku is irrelevant.

That still makes little sense. Why would it matter how Black compares to a SSJ3? Exactly how much power was Goku holding back when he hit Trunks in that forms, if he truly was already more powerful than Vegetto in his base form?

He attacked Trunks once and that was the end of it. He obviously didn't hit at full power otherwise Trunks would be dead. And Super Saiyan 3 is Goku's second strongest transformation next to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan despite the massive power drain, which Trunks can't sense since he isn't strong enough to sense God ki.

[WittyUsername]

If he was holding back enough to not kill Trunks, that would mean that he was actually using less power than what his base form is capable of, wouldn't it?

[HeroR]

If he was holding back enough to not kill Trunks, that would mean that he was actually using less power than what his base form is capable of, wouldn't it?

Trunks can still feel the power of the form, which gives Trunks an idea how powerful Goku is and how that power relates to Black. Like Trunks knows Black is very strong, yet he survived hits from him. Most of that is Black playing with him.

[Chiki]

If Goku was using godly ki in SSJ3, then Trunks wouldn't be able to measure Goku's strength and the entire sparring in order to compare Goku and Black's strengths would be pointless.

[LowRyder2005]

Trunks can still feel the power of the form, which gives Trunks an idea how powerful Goku is and how that power relates to Black. Like Trunks knows Black is very strong, yet he survived hits from him. Most of that is Black playing with him.

No, I'm sorry, the entire premises of the argument above are already kind of self-contradicting.
How can Trunks know that Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku if Super Saiyan 3 Goku at full power can kill Trunks with a thought and Trunks has fought and survived against a Black who has not been holding back?

In short:
* If Black is not holding back and Black is as strong as "God" SS3 Goku who is just a little bit weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, Trunks can't survive a single hit from Black (since according to you, Trunks hasn't even reached Base "God" Goku level, so he's, let's say 1/800 of Goku's SS3) -> Trunks would be dead, so this can't be the case.
* If Black is holding back to match Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, Trunks can't compare him to Super Saiyan 3 Goku; Goku in base would've been already far stronger. -> Trunks would see Base Goku, or if anything "God" Super Saiyan Goku already far superior to the [suppressed] Black.

The third way would be that Black is letting Trunks feel his overwhelming ki pulling his punches... but is it even conceivable with such a gigantic gap you have in mind? It'd be, again, like Nappa pulling his punches against the farmer with a shotgun when he proclaimed multiple times that he "absolutely wants to kill the farmer". In the end he may not, but it'd still appear counter-intuitive or simply hard to believe.
Moreover, if he wants to torture Trunks as you claim, wouldn't it be more efficient to lower his ki so that he doesn't accidentally kill him?

In short, the only way this kind of theory can work is if:
* Trunks felt Black's ki, at his fullest, some time before they fought.
* Every time they fought, Black lowered his ki abnormally to 0.1% or lower of his full output to, as you put it, play with Trunks.

Both would be possible, but it still goes against everything we've been shown so far concerning Black. His one and only motive so far has been to kill humans and Saiyans "for great justice", with no other hidden agenda like torture/ endless despair in-between.

No offense, of course, I mean, this could be what they have in mind, but as far as I'm concerned it wouldn't make it any less abysmal from a writing perspective. At least with what we have at the moment, of course.

[buutenks]

Goku wanted to see how black compares. And goku used ssj3. if goku had used ssj blue, trunks would be unable to sense his PL.

So, while ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku may be stronger than most buu saga characters, including ssj3 gotenks perhaps, they are nowhere near ssj blue transformation.

Also, from the looks of it, trunks beat dabura using ssj1, since no electricity was shown. Then he had some on and off battles with black and proly unlocked ssj2 after getting beat up and healed. So he most likely got a nasty power boost after all that trashing.

So my character tier based off the anime:

Omniking
Omniking guards
Vados/Whis
Beerus
Champa
10xkk ssj blue goku
Hit
ssj blue goku/vegeta/Golden Freeza
.
.
.
.
.
ssj3 goku
ssj2 vegeta/goku
ssj2 trunks
ssj goku/vegeta
ssj trunks
Magetta
ssj cabba
FF frost
assault form frost
Piccolo/Base gohan/base goku and vegeta/base cabba/ultimate gohan
ssj3 gotenks
first form frost
Mr buu
SP Cell
Androids
Freeza(namek saga)
Captain GInyu(namek saga)
The bear guy

[TheMikado]

^ That Piccolo/ SSJ3 Gotenks level is just abysmal...

I mean having Piccolo, base Goku, and base Gohan as equal and above Ultimate Gohan makes zero sense not to mention being above SSJ3 Gotenks. I don't see how that's even possible after seeing RoF???

Actually after looking at this where does Frieza and the gang from ROF fit in? Did you watch ROF because their entire cast has been skipped.

[Noah]

Base Mirai Trunks and Piccolo are not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, it's silly and don't make an eff of a sense.