Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:59 am

WittyUsername wrote:Why wouldn't Piccolo have trained during those 7 years? He enjoys fighting, doesn't he?

Regarding training with a partner, if we want to follow the idea that having a sparring partner can make that much of a difference in someone's power, why wasn't Piccolo already stronger than a Super Saiyan before fusing with Kami in the Cell Arc? He spent 3 years training with Goku and Gohan during that time, so that should have given him a far greater surge in power to the point where he should have already been able to mop the floor with 17 and 18, if we want to follow the logic that training with a weakened Gohan for a few months managed to cause his power to skyrocket to such a degree.

While we're at it, didn't Goku and Vegeta spend 3 years training with one another before the Universe 6 tournament? How did Piccolo manage to sort of catch up with that?
First and foremost, Piccolo's obsession to grow stronger fizzled out upon fusing with Kami. Secondly, it was never specified how intense his training was; therefore, it's very plausible to deduce that he wasn't subjecting himself to the same caliber of intensity as he was during his battle hungry days.

When did I ever say that training with a stronger sparring partner would make the weaker trainee surpass the stronger one? Do you just post for the sake of posting, or do you actually read what I write? And didn't I mention how Piccolo got more out of his training than Goku did in relative terms?

How did Piccolo catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If you're referring to him closing in on their base forms, it's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've mentioned several times before, Piccolo saw a far greater degree of improvement from King Kai's training than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration.

Weakened Gohan eh? And you know just exactly how powerful Gohan is because...? In any case, Gohan getting weaker doesn't really support your argument in any shape or form, as he was STILL far superior to Piccolo, even in base form. :clap:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:03 am

supercat wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Why wouldn't Piccolo have trained during those 7 years? He enjoys fighting, doesn't he?

Regarding training with a partner, if we want to follow the idea that having a sparring partner can make that much of a difference in someone's power, why wasn't Piccolo already stronger than a Super Saiyan before fusing with Kami in the Cell Arc? He spent 3 years training with Goku and Gohan during that time, so that should have given him a far greater surge in power to the point where he should have already been able to mop the floor with 17 and 18, if we want to follow the logic that training with a weakened Gohan for a few months managed to cause his power to skyrocket to such a degree.

While we're at it, didn't Goku and Vegeta spend 3 years training with one another before the Universe 6 tournament? How did Piccolo manage to sort of catch up with that?
First and foremost, Piccolo's obsession to grow stronger fizzled out upon fusing with Kami. Secondly, it was never specified how intense his training was; therefore, it's very plausible to deduce that he wasn't subjecting himself to the same caliber of intensity as he was during his battle hungry days.

When did I ever say that training with a stronger sparring partner would make the weaker trainee surpass the stronger one? Do you just post for the sake of posting, or do you actually read what I write? And didn't I mention how Piccolo got more out of his training than Goku did in relative terms?

How did Piccolo catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If you're referring to him closing in on their base forms, it's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've mentioned several times before, Piccolo saw a far greater degree of improvement from King Kai's training than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration.

Weakened Gohan eh? And you know just exactly how powerful Gohan is because...? In any case, Gohan getting weaker doesn't really support your argument in any shape or form, as he was STILL far superior to Piccolo, even in base form. :clap:
Closing in on their base forms seems pretty unbelievable, when their base forms in question are more powerful than an untrained Super Saiyan God.

Also, I know that Gohan was weakened by that point, because he even acknowledged that he had been slacking off in his training, which was why he lost his "ultimate" power up.

There's no need for condescending remarks like "do you post or the sake of posting" by the way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:25 am

WittyUsername wrote:
supercat wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Why wouldn't Piccolo have trained during those 7 years? He enjoys fighting, doesn't he?

Regarding training with a partner, if we want to follow the idea that having a sparring partner can make that much of a difference in someone's power, why wasn't Piccolo already stronger than a Super Saiyan before fusing with Kami in the Cell Arc? He spent 3 years training with Goku and Gohan during that time, so that should have given him a far greater surge in power to the point where he should have already been able to mop the floor with 17 and 18, if we want to follow the logic that training with a weakened Gohan for a few months managed to cause his power to skyrocket to such a degree.

While we're at it, didn't Goku and Vegeta spend 3 years training with one another before the Universe 6 tournament? How did Piccolo manage to sort of catch up with that?
First and foremost, Piccolo's obsession to grow stronger fizzled out upon fusing with Kami. Secondly, it was never specified how intense his training was; therefore, it's very plausible to deduce that he wasn't subjecting himself to the same caliber of intensity as he was during his battle hungry days.

When did I ever say that training with a stronger sparring partner would make the weaker trainee surpass the stronger one? Do you just post for the sake of posting, or do you actually read what I write? And didn't I mention how Piccolo got more out of his training than Goku did in relative terms?

How did Piccolo catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If you're referring to him closing in on their base forms, it's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've mentioned several times before, Piccolo saw a far greater degree of improvement from King Kai's training than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration.

Weakened Gohan eh? And you know just exactly how powerful Gohan is because...? In any case, Gohan getting weaker doesn't really support your argument in any shape or form, as he was STILL far superior to Piccolo, even in base form. :clap:
Closing in on their base forms seems pretty unbelievable, when their base forms in question are more powerful than an untrained Super Saiyan God.

Also, I know that Gohan was weakened by that point, because he even acknowledged that he had been slacking off in his training, which was why he lost his "ultimate" power up.

There's no need for condescending remarks like "do you post or the sake of posting" by the way.
How believable you find a particular outcome is your own perception; it doesn't really contribute to how and why Piccolo couldn't surpass Vegetto. We've seen Piccolo go from First Form Frieza tier to a level that was probably comparable to Final Form Frieza (100%), so why should this be any different? Closing in on some legendary transformation through training alone was attainable before, so why not now?

Again, Gohan growing weaker doesn't really support your argument because that still doesn't change the fact that Piccolo trained with someone much stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:32 am

Super Saiyan God was stated to be a level of power that was virtually impossible to attain by normal means. So we're basically just left to assume that a few months of training was all Piccolo needed to be on par with that? Again, this would mean that Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.

Piccolo becoming stronger than an untrained Supper Saiyan only even happened due to him fusing with Kami, but now we're told that training for a few months was all it took for him to achieve a level of power once thought to be impossible?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:43 am

WittyUsername wrote:
HeroR wrote: Also don't think Piccolo or Future Trunks are as strong as some people thing. If Piccolo got such a massive power jump, it would have been mention in some way. I mean, Goku mentioned Piccolo getting strong after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber despite it amounted to crap. Him being Majin Buu level would have gotten some comment even if it's a throw away line like, 'hey, you've gotten better'. Literally the only reason why Piccolo did well against Frost is because Frost got his ass beat by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand and he was treating Piccolo with kid gloves. And Trunks didn't even hurt Goku and Goku easily caught his fists. It wasn't even a fight. The only reason why Trunks appeared stronger than Gotenks is because Goku bothered to put his guard up while Copy-Vegeta just stood there and let Gotenks use all his best attacks on him without moving.
Wasn't it suggested that Piccolo could have actually beaten Frost, if the former hadn't cheated? Considering that Goku had to go Super Saiyan in order to overpower him, that would suggest that Frost is more powerful than a trained Super Saiyan God. In other words, Piccolo shouldn't have been able to last 2 seconds against him, even if he was weakened. I don't care what kind of training Piccolo did with Gohan, if that allowed his power to increase to such a degree, Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.
Piccolo only came close to victory because Frost got his butt kicked around for several minutes by Super Saiyan Goku which drastically dropped his power. Even then, Goku said that Piccolo stood no chance against Frost and his best bet was to weaken Frost for Vegeta. Piccolo even asked Frost to go to a lower form, in which Frost answered that he didn't have much power left and can't kill Piccolo. Piccolo only almost won because Frost underestimated him and Piccolo dumped all his energy into the Special Beam Cannon, the same technique that killed Raditz who was more than three time stronger than Piccolo at the time.

It was never said anyway that Piccolo was within Frost's league.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:58 am

WittyUsername wrote:Super Saiyan God was stated to be a level of power that was virtually impossible to attain by normal means. So we're basically just left to assume that a few months of training was all Piccolo needed to be on par with that? Again, this would mean that Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.

Piccolo becoming stronger than an untrained Supper Saiyan only even happened due to him fusing with Kami, but now we're told that training for a few months was all it took for him to achieve a level of power once thought to be impossible?
What does this have to do with Beerus? Ever wonder if it's because the writers want to keep Beerus relevant? How is that even remotely akin to some villain whose relevance fizzled out several arcs prior?

Who said Base Goku was on par with his SSG counterpart? The two don't have to be parallel in power for Base Goku to be stronger than SSJ Vegetto. SSG Goku is so far ahead of anything shown in the Buu arc that there is plenty of room to fit everyone in.

SSG Goku >/= SSJ Goku > Base Goku > / = Piccolo > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ Vegetto

Um no... Piccolo reached a level of power where he could effortlessly toy with Gero (someone who tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting). So while he may not have reached SSJ-tier, he became pretty darn close. Fusing with Kami took him from being comparable to Final Form Frieza 100% / SSJ Goku (Namek) to a caliber that was deemed far stronger than an SSJ Goku that had spent three years of training. No matter how we look at it, the end result is that Piccolo has reached levels that were deemed both legendary and unfathomable through mere training. Plus, like I mentioned above, surpassing SSJ Vegetto doesn't at all mean that Piccolo is SSG-tier, as the former is worlds below said level of power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:11 am

supercat wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Super Saiyan God was stated to be a level of power that was virtually impossible to attain by normal means. So we're basically just left to assume that a few months of training was all Piccolo needed to be on par with that? Again, this would mean that Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.

Piccolo becoming stronger than an untrained Supper Saiyan only even happened due to him fusing with Kami, but now we're told that training for a few months was all it took for him to achieve a level of power once thought to be impossible?
What does this have to do with Beerus? Ever wonder if it's because the writers want to keep Beerus relevant? How is that even remotely akin to some villain whose relevance fizzled out several arcs prior?

Who said Base Goku was on par with his SSG counterpart? The two don't have to be parallel in power for Base Goku to be stronger than SSJ Vegetto. SSG Goku is so far ahead of anything shown in the Buu arc that there is plenty of room to fit everyone in.

SSG Goku >/= SSJ Goku > Base Goku > / = Piccolo > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ Vegetto

Um no... Piccolo reached a level of power where he could effortlessly toy with Gero (someone who tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting). So while he may not have reached SSJ-tier, he became pretty darn close. Fusing with Kami took him from being comparable to Final Form Frieza 100% / SSJ Goku (Namek) to a caliber that was deemed far stronger than an SSJ Goku that had spent three years of training. No matter how we look at it, the end result is that Piccolo has reached levels that were deemed both legendary and unfathomable through mere training. Plus, like I mentioned above, surpassing SSJ Vegetto doesn't at all mean that Piccolo is SSG-tier, as the former is worlds below said level of power.
Gero wasn't on par with a Super Saiyan himself. That's why he ended up needing to rely on 17 and 18 to defeat the Z-Warriors.

Also, if the writers do want Beerus to stay relevant, then your argument for how Piccolo could get so strong just by doing some vague training with Gohan doesn't check out. If we follow your logic, a day in the ROSAT with Gohan is all he needs to mop the floor with Beerus. That just doesn't work. Even with all the power scaling Dragon Ball is known for, you can't have one of the supporting characters make such an insane leap in power offscreen, and still treat Beerus like some all-powerful threat who the good guys wouldn't stand a chance against, if he were angry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:16 am

ahill1 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?
But that's already impossible based on base Vegeta being > SSJ3 Gotenks.
No, I mean the whole point of bringing up the Super manga in cojunction with the movies is that the Gotenks vs Copy-Vegeta fight didn't happen. So there's nothing contradicting Pure Buu > base Goku at the end of the manga.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:39 am

supercat wrote:First and foremost, Piccolo's obsession to grow stronger fizzled out upon fusing with Kami. Secondly, it was never specified how intense his training was; therefore, it's very plausible to deduce that he wasn't subjecting himself to the same caliber of intensity as he was during his battle hungry days.

When did I ever say that training with a stronger sparring partner would make the weaker trainee surpass the stronger one? Do you just post for the sake of posting, or do you actually read what I write? And didn't I mention how Piccolo got more out of his training than Goku did in relative terms?

How did Piccolo catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If you're referring to him closing in on their base forms, it's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've mentioned several times before, Piccolo saw a far greater degree of improvement from King Kai's training than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration.

Weakened Gohan eh? And you know just exactly how powerful Gohan is because...? In any case, Gohan getting weaker doesn't really support your argument in any shape or form, as he was STILL far superior to Piccolo, even in base form. :clap:
As usual with your arrogant attitude despite your horrible arguments (ex. inconsistency in a fighting manga is good writing HAHAHA).

It's already been confirmed in the anime that Piccolo trains. When Gohan asks to train with Piccolo, Piccolo says that Gohan's body is dull. The obvious implication is that Piccolo's isn't because he has been keeping up with his training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1SWnAaGfuI

Second, Gohan is worn out from training with Piccolo when Piccolo himself isn't, meaning he is fitter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61odm13tN4A

It's that simple. You're just wrong as usual. Carry on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:04 am

Ok, it is been a while since I have posted here. Furthermore there is more material and stuff to work around in that subject. First let's summarize what we know about Base goku and vegeta...

1) bog Base goku and vegeta were weaker then Final form Frieeza at 100% as stated by beerus. Keeping in mind that Base goku in battle with frieeza was 3 milion pl and frieeza's full power was 120 mln pl, then goku was just 2.5% of final form frieeza from namek
2) Beerus was slightly impressed by ss3 goku at least it was shown in the anime and he considered him finally worhty to show feel of god's destruction power
3) Enraged mutation vegeta(ss2 looking alike) was stated by Roshi to finally suprass goku, and beerus confirmed it by having more fun then in previous clash. Goku who has been watching this duel, never mentions vegeta suprassing vegetto, just only him as meassure stick. He got one shot by 10% beerus
4) Combined ki failed ritual goku was stated to have incredible power or the greatest power felt , which means this goku ~ buu arc ss vegetto. Beerus was looking with slight interest but expecting ssg he was disappointed still even vegeta was impressed which means this goku > enraged ss2 vegeta
5) After ssg burnt out goku was keeping up at same peace against beerus,however beerus explained that it is only due to crimson fire burning inside you still. So Ss goku with anger and being excited was close to ssg and about base it was only one occurence, possibly still affected from ss, but much better shown in the movie where goku retransform in ssg to push beerus's destructive power back
6) After six months of vegeta training under whis, Goku meet with him and explain that vegeta got stronger then him, but never specify if at all or just in current form(base)
7) While training under whis both vegeta and goku are improving vastly, however oracle fish mentions transformation which would make them much stronger.
8) Akira mentioned once about goku absorbing power of Saiyan god in himself, but never specify if that means god ki or even keeping such power in base. It can be easily interpretted as hint of ssb comming as it was only then when Kaiosama said he finally turned in god just by himself.
9) Whis told goku that only them together fighting against beerus would give them chance winning, and he meant ssb power including.
10) In ROF frieeza was impressed by goku's power stating he is even stronger then majin buu, while they were both around equal with frieeza slight adavantage.
At this point base goku > bog ss3 goku
11) Before universe 6 tournament goku called Majin buu crazy strong while enraged, which could reffer to possibly fat buu.
12) Picoolo and gohan have trained for 8 months and arguably gohan was retrained from scratch.
13) 3 years in Rosat training made both goku and vegeta a bit stronger, although they were supposed to be at the limit. at this point they are ~ SS2 gotenks at least
14) Against Botamo, goku excussed himself holding back with eating too much food, also botamo's special ability made it hard to see where he could be
15) Against Frost, it was only while clashing with Assault form Frost goku began to get heated up and warming up for fight, then he forced Frost to transform by transforming himself in ss. fresh Final Form Frost ~ ss3 gotenks let's say.
16) Goku stated that Picoolo has no chance against Frost, but can weaken him for vegeta. Still Picoolo has done pretty well against final form frost and we should remember frost was keeping his game of acting as good guy until this point, so hardly to meassure as Frost agreed to hold back stating he lacks power to finish Picoolo(which could be just good game acting)
17) SS Vegeta one shoot tired frost who want to go all out against him.
18) Vegeta vs Maggenta shows that full power Magenta could be above buuhan, base vegetto
19) Vegeta vs Cabba, Vegeta played with him a bit to push him further then trained him to reach ssj by pretending to be evil. Still SS Vegeta easily tanks SS cabba, so SS Cabba would be around Magenta level at full power. Buutenks most likely
20) About Fight against Hit, I prefer to go by manga version, as Kaioken was stupid idea.

Worth to note: Neither goku or vegeta were used god ki fully until transforming into ssb. To sum it up I have base goku and vegeta between buu arc ultimate gohan level and enraged ssj2 vegeta mutation(Yes, I have him below ss vegetto, probably buuhan too).

In Current arc it would be:

Full power base goku - 100% ~ ultimate gohan level(10x ss3(400))
ss3 goku - 10%
ss2 goku - 2.5%
ss2 trunks - 2%
Holding back base goku - 0,025%

The reason for goku to transform was just show off and to show him that he can transform too. Possibly precents would be higher if let's say ss2 trunks was stated to be above majin buu, but we don't know sadly. Still I don't see ss3 goku being more then 20% of full power base goku. Also they can be still felt until they use ssb, so I am not convinced with two base theory. About filler battle of vegeta and ss3 gotenks... I just skip it/omit it unless manga bring it up too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:42 am

WittyUsername wrote:
supercat wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Super Saiyan God was stated to be a level of power that was virtually impossible to attain by normal means. So we're basically just left to assume that a few months of training was all Piccolo needed to be on par with that? Again, this would mean that Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.

Piccolo becoming stronger than an untrained Supper Saiyan only even happened due to him fusing with Kami, but now we're told that training for a few months was all it took for him to achieve a level of power once thought to be impossible?
What does this have to do with Beerus? Ever wonder if it's because the writers want to keep Beerus relevant? How is that even remotely akin to some villain whose relevance fizzled out several arcs prior?

Who said Base Goku was on par with his SSG counterpart? The two don't have to be parallel in power for Base Goku to be stronger than SSJ Vegetto. SSG Goku is so far ahead of anything shown in the Buu arc that there is plenty of room to fit everyone in.

SSG Goku >/= SSJ Goku > Base Goku > / = Piccolo > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ Vegetto

Um no... Piccolo reached a level of power where he could effortlessly toy with Gero (someone who tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting). So while he may not have reached SSJ-tier, he became pretty darn close. Fusing with Kami took him from being comparable to Final Form Frieza 100% / SSJ Goku (Namek) to a caliber that was deemed far stronger than an SSJ Goku that had spent three years of training. No matter how we look at it, the end result is that Piccolo has reached levels that were deemed both legendary and unfathomable through mere training. Plus, like I mentioned above, surpassing SSJ Vegetto doesn't at all mean that Piccolo is SSG-tier, as the former is worlds below said level of power.
Gero wasn't on par with a Super Saiyan himself. That's why he ended up needing to rely on 17 and 18 to defeat the Z-Warriors.

Also, if the writers do want Beerus to stay relevant, then your argument for how Piccolo could get so strong just by doing some vague training with Gohan doesn't check out. If we follow your logic, a day in the ROSAT with Gohan is all he needs to mop the floor with Beerus. That just doesn't work. Even with all the power scaling Dragon Ball is known for, you can't have one of the supporting characters make such an insane leap in power offscreen, and still treat Beerus like some all-powerful threat who the good guys wouldn't stand a chance against, if he were angry.
If you don't have a solid argument, perhaps it's best to move on rather than putting words in my mouth and dragging this conversation around in circles? Did I say that Gero was on par with a Super Saiyan? Didn't I explicitly indicate that he wasn't quite there, and that it was Piccolo who presumably reached a level that was comparable to 100% Frieza? Either way, that whole analogy was to show that if Piccolo was able to obtain universally-feared and renowned power in the past, it's not that far-fetched for him to do it again. But again, what I was trying to point out was that Piccolo surpassing Vegetto still doesn't put him anywhere near SSG, as said transformation is still worlds beyond anything showcased in the Buu arc. So no, I wasn't using Piccolo's monumental jump in the Android arc to support the fact that he reached SSG-tier, but to simply show that he should at least have the capability to surpass Vegetto.

How does it not check out? Because you said so? :clap: Again, you're dragging Beerus into this, but doing so makes zero sense. It's pretty apparent to me that he's meant to stay relevant, and thus will likely continue to be way ahead of the game until the plot requires him to take a step back. And no, I wasn't indicating that guys like Piccolo could reach Beerus-tier through mere training alone; I think I made it pretty clear that he couldn't even catch up to SSG Goku. Again, just because someone surpasses Vegetto, Buuhan, or any of his other overhyped counterparts in that arc doesn't automatically mean they could do the same with characters like Beerus and Whis, both of whom are likely going to remain relevant for awhile. How is it any different you may ask? Beerus and Whis both have important roles with plenty of screen time, whereas Buu... well yeah, you get the point. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:59 am

Some of you are holding on to the buu saga power levels like they are still relevant. Buu saga PLs are finger flick material now.

The fact that piccolo could go toe toe with ff frost and ff frost being above base goku means that piccolo surpassed buu saga PLs.

Lets see here:

Beerus while heavily suppressed finger flicks ssj3 BOG goku, but powers up vs base goku and they have a nice fight. On top of that krillin notes that base goku is much stronger than when he fought beerus as a ssj(ssj back then wasnt that op, since all didnt find goku's ssj1 ki that impressive and as beerus said the god power was still burning inside goku, which allowed him to fight beerus, even tho ssj1 wasnt that strong).

And base copy vegeta was not even flinching from ssj3 gotenks full power attacks and base goku was his equal.

So since piccolo trained with gohan, and from the training they were basically equals, piccolo got as strong ornearly as strong as base goku,vegeta etc.
Last edited by buutenks on Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:05 am

Chiki wrote:
supercat wrote:First and foremost, Piccolo's obsession to grow stronger fizzled out upon fusing with Kami. Secondly, it was never specified how intense his training was; therefore, it's very plausible to deduce that he wasn't subjecting himself to the same caliber of intensity as he was during his battle hungry days.

When did I ever say that training with a stronger sparring partner would make the weaker trainee surpass the stronger one? Do you just post for the sake of posting, or do you actually read what I write? And didn't I mention how Piccolo got more out of his training than Goku did in relative terms?

How did Piccolo catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If you're referring to him closing in on their base forms, it's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've mentioned several times before, Piccolo saw a far greater degree of improvement from King Kai's training than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration.

Weakened Gohan eh? And you know just exactly how powerful Gohan is because...? In any case, Gohan getting weaker doesn't really support your argument in any shape or form, as he was STILL far superior to Piccolo, even in base form. :clap:
As usual with your arrogant attitude despite your horrible arguments (ex. inconsistency in a fighting manga is good writing HAHAHA).

It's already been confirmed in the anime that Piccolo trains. When Gohan asks to train with Piccolo, Piccolo says that Gohan's body is dull. The obvious implication is that Piccolo's isn't because he has been keeping up with his training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1SWnAaGfuI

Second, Gohan is worn out from training with Piccolo when Piccolo himself isn't, meaning he is fitter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61odm13tN4A

It's that simple. You're just wrong as usual. Carry on.
I love how you're calling me arrogant, when it's you who constantly pushes on some ridiculous theory that has not yet once been proven. Then you go on to say that I have horrible arguments, when I personally haven't seen you post anything even worthy of debate. It's always the same nonsense about how real the two base theory is. :clap: :lol: :clap:

Piccolo keeping up with his training has nothing to do with how intense that form of training was, especially when he lacked a superior sparring partner.

This is Dragon Ball, if character a isn't worn out whereas character b is, maybe it's because character a is slightly stronger...? :lol:

I find this nonchalant attitude of certainty especially hilarious because you have no facts to back up your arguments whatsoever. Oh and in case it wasn't blatantly obvious enough, this is an open discussion where people share their speculations; for you someone to say that their theory is the one and only truth not only makes them come off extremely ignorant, but also laughably silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:33 am

buutenks wrote:Some of you are holding on to the buu saga power levels like they are still relevant. Buu saga PLs are finger flick material now.

The fact that piccolo could go toe toe with ff frost and ff frost being above base goku means that piccolo surpassed buu saga PLs.

Lets see here:

Beerus while heavily suppressed finger flicks ssj3 BOG goku, but powers up vs base goku and they have a nice fight. On top of that krillin notes that base goku is much stronger than when he fought beerus as a ssj(ssj back then wasnt that op, since all didnt find goku's ssj1 ki that impressive and as beerus said the god power was still burning inside goku, which allowed him to fight beerus, even tho ssj1 wasnt that strong).

And base copy vegeta was not even flinching from ssj3 gotenks full power attacks and base goku was his equal.

So since piccolo trained with gohan, and from the training they were basically equals, piccolo got as strong ornearly as strong as base goku,vegeta etc.
If you are using this as irony or sarcasm to my post, then you failed miserably as I dont see you adressing any of them.

Pccolo going toe toe with tired/holding back FF frost doesnt give him any edge as base goku at this point is still below buutenks. Also frost got beat up badly by holding back ssj goku.

Your example with beerus hardly hold any meaning as beerus was fighting while wearing monaca costume. What ? krillin only said goku is even stronger then before but ssg couldnt be sinsible while ssj and base against beerus was one point occurence, also krillin has never commented on him then. Also goku calling majin buu crazy strong while enraged disagree with your argument, point you try to estabilish.

filler, so hardly has any revealance unless brought again by Akira. Again picoolo trainig with gohan is bad argument as gohan was going to retrained from scratch.

I also fund hilarious how easily people disregard idea of giotenks getting weaker just like gohan slacked off with his training in time of peace. Yeah both Trunks and goten along with gohan weaken by a lot, that what Akira keep trying to portay...

Try harder and better if you want to prove me wrong

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am

supercat wrote:If you don't have a solid argument, perhaps it's best to move on rather than putting words in my mouth and dragging this conversation around in circles? Did I say that Gero was on par with a Super Saiyan? Didn't I explicitly indicate that he wasn't quite there, and that it was Piccolo who presumably reached a level that was comparable to 100% Frieza? Either way, that whole analogy was to show that if Piccolo was able to obtain universally-feared and renowned power in the past, it's not that far-fetched for him to do it again. But again, what I was trying to point out was that Piccolo surpassing Vegetto still doesn't put him anywhere near SSG, as said transformation is still worlds beyond anything showcased in the Buu arc. So no, I wasn't using Piccolo's monumental jump in the Android arc to support the fact that he reached SSG-tier, but to simply show that he should at least have the capability to surpass Vegetto.

How does it not check out? Because you said so? :clap: Again, you're dragging Beerus into this, but doing so makes zero sense. It's pretty apparent to me that he's meant to stay relevant, and thus will likely continue to be way ahead of the game until the plot requires him to take a step back. And no, I wasn't indicating that guys like Piccolo could reach Beerus-tier through mere training alone; I think I made it pretty clear that he couldn't even catch up to SSG Goku. Again, just because someone surpasses Vegetto, Buuhan, or any of his other overhyped counterparts in that arc doesn't automatically mean they could do the same with characters like Beerus and Whis, both of whom are likely going to remain relevant for awhile. How is it any different you may ask? Beerus and Whis both have important roles with plenty of screen time, whereas Buu... well yeah, you get the point. :lol:
I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. Please stop with the condescending attitude.

The whole problem with your argument is that you were suggesting that Piccolo was able to make a ridiculous leap in power just from his offscreen training with Gohan, and I'm merely suggesting that doesn't make sense, even by Dragon Ball standards. The reason I'm dragging Beerus into this is because you suggested that Piccolo being able to sort of catch up with a regular Super Saiyan God is nothing out of the ordinary for the series (and you did seem to imply that when I mentioned that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are on par with that transformation), and I'm suggesting that if we wanted to follow that logic, Beerus should be a runt compared to the Z-warriors by this point. Even in the past, Piccolo was only able to achieve massive leaps in power by fusing with other Namekians. He definitely wasn't on Goku and Vegeta's level prior to fusing with Kami, and even after training in the ROSAT, Goku plainly stated that Piccolo still wouldn't stand a chance against Cell. I can't even recall it being stated that he was on par with a full powered Freeza, prior to his merging with Kami.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:05 pm

ssbgoku wrote:
buutenks wrote:Some of you are holding on to the buu saga power levels like they are still relevant. Buu saga PLs are finger flick material now.

The fact that piccolo could go toe toe with ff frost and ff frost being above base goku means that piccolo surpassed buu saga PLs.

Lets see here:

Beerus while heavily suppressed finger flicks ssj3 BOG goku, but powers up vs base goku and they have a nice fight. On top of that krillin notes that base goku is much stronger than when he fought beerus as a ssj(ssj back then wasnt that op, since all didnt find goku's ssj1 ki that impressive and as beerus said the god power was still burning inside goku, which allowed him to fight beerus, even tho ssj1 wasnt that strong).

And base copy vegeta was not even flinching from ssj3 gotenks full power attacks and base goku was his equal.

So since piccolo trained with gohan, and from the training they were basically equals, piccolo got as strong ornearly as strong as base goku,vegeta etc.
If you are using this as irony or sarcasm to my post, then you failed miserably as I dont see you adressing any of them.

Pccolo going toe toe with tired/holding back FF frost doesnt give him any edge as base goku at this point is still below buutenks. Also frost got beat up badly by holding back ssj goku.

Your example with beerus hardly hold any meaning as beerus was fighting while wearing monaca costume. What ? krillin only said goku is even stronger then before but ssg couldnt be sinsible while ssj and base against beerus was one point occurence, also krillin has never commented on him then. Also goku calling majin buu crazy strong while enraged disagree with your argument, point you try to estabilish.

filler, so hardly has any revealance unless brought again by Akira. Again picoolo trainig with gohan is bad argument as gohan was going to retrained from scratch.

I also fund hilarious how easily people disregard idea of giotenks getting weaker just like gohan slacked off with his training in time of peace. Yeah both Trunks and goten along with gohan weaken by a lot, that what Akira keep trying to portay...

Try harder and better if you want to prove me wrong
Hmm, i dont remember quoting u. So why are you writing try harder to prove me wrong?

Its odd how u think what i wrote is directed to you.

I simply wrote my view on current power levels. What is your opinion is none of my concern.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:27 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
supercat wrote:If you don't have a solid argument, perhaps it's best to move on rather than putting words in my mouth and dragging this conversation around in circles? Did I say that Gero was on par with a Super Saiyan? Didn't I explicitly indicate that he wasn't quite there, and that it was Piccolo who presumably reached a level that was comparable to 100% Frieza? Either way, that whole analogy was to show that if Piccolo was able to obtain universally-feared and renowned power in the past, it's not that far-fetched for him to do it again. But again, what I was trying to point out was that Piccolo surpassing Vegetto still doesn't put him anywhere near SSG, as said transformation is still worlds beyond anything showcased in the Buu arc. So no, I wasn't using Piccolo's monumental jump in the Android arc to support the fact that he reached SSG-tier, but to simply show that he should at least have the capability to surpass Vegetto.

How does it not check out? Because you said so? :clap: Again, you're dragging Beerus into this, but doing so makes zero sense. It's pretty apparent to me that he's meant to stay relevant, and thus will likely continue to be way ahead of the game until the plot requires him to take a step back. And no, I wasn't indicating that guys like Piccolo could reach Beerus-tier through mere training alone; I think I made it pretty clear that he couldn't even catch up to SSG Goku. Again, just because someone surpasses Vegetto, Buuhan, or any of his other overhyped counterparts in that arc doesn't automatically mean they could do the same with characters like Beerus and Whis, both of whom are likely going to remain relevant for awhile. How is it any different you may ask? Beerus and Whis both have important roles with plenty of screen time, whereas Buu... well yeah, you get the point. :lol:
I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. Please stop with the condescending attitude.

The whole problem with your argument is that you were suggesting that Piccolo was able to make a ridiculous leap in power just from his offscreen training with Gohan, and I'm merely suggesting that doesn't make sense, even by Dragon Ball standards. The reason I'm dragging Beerus into this is because you suggested that Piccolo being able to sort of catch up with a regular Super Saiyan God is nothing out of the ordinary for the series (and you did seem to imply that when I mentioned that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are on par with that transformation), and I'm suggesting that if we wanted to follow that logic, Beerus should be a runt compared to the Z-warriors by this point. Even in the past, Piccolo was only able to achieve massive leaps in power by fusing with other Namekians. He definitely wasn't on Goku and Vegeta's level prior to fusing with Kami, and even after training in the ROSAT, Goku plainly stated that Piccolo still wouldn't stand a chance against Cell. I can't even recall it being stated that he was on par with a full powered Freeza, prior to his merging with Kami.
Clearly this debate hasn't been very productive nor is it going anywhere.

I'm honestly baffled at the number of times I have to repeat myself. If you can't think of a good response, why even bother responding? And I do get the feeling that words are crammed into my mouth because I didn't say that Piccolo caught up to SSG. I said he caught up to Base Goku; I differentiated the two numerous times, not my fault if you missed it. I also explicitly indicated that the gap between SSG Goku and SSJ Vegetto is likely large enough to fit Piccolo and Base Goku somewhere in between.

SSG Goku > / = SSJ Goku > Base Goku > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto

Again, repeating myself here. Didn't Piccolo see a far greater return from his training with King Kai than Goku did, despite training for a much shorter duration?

In the anime, Krillin compares Piccolo to an SSJ, when Gero was getting wrecked; either way, effortlessly trumping an opponent that a tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting is impressive.

Whether Piccolo's fusions were a significant source of power or not doesn't really support the argument that fusing is the be-all and end-all way of obtaining a notable increase, as he's also done exceptionally well through training alone. Going from Second Form Frieza tier to a level that could easily trounce the same opponent that tired SSJ Vegeta weaseled out from fighting is arguably one of the greatest jumps in the series, and in relative terms, is likely a much greater increase than anything he's obtained through fusions. Oh, and did I mention that the version of Gero that Piccolo beat had already absorbed a good chunk of SSJ energy and was even stronger than the one that tired SSJ Vegeta avoided fighting?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:28 pm

supercat wrote: Closing in on some legendary transformation through training alone was attainable before, so why not now?
You suggested right here that Piccolo was able to match an SSJG.

You're right about one thing though, this argument is going nowhere.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:59 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
supercat wrote: Closing in on some legendary transformation through training alone was attainable before, so why not now?
You suggested right here that Piccolo was able to match an SSJG.

You're right about one thing though, this argument is going nowhere.
I'm not sure how such an explicit indication could be misconstrued to this extent. Firstly, do you not know what it means to close in on someone's power? Should I have toned it down a notch and said something along the lines of "He almost reached SSJ-tier?" Also, I'm not sure how anyone could interpret any of that as me stating that "Piccolo could catch up to an SSG much less match one." I thought I was pretty clear when I indicated that the gap between SSG and SSJ Vegetto was presumably large enough to comfortably fit Piccolo somewhere in between.

Also, I love how you're seemingly trying to find some nonexistent flaw and/or contradiction in my post rather than trying to rebut the other parts of my argument from above. :clap:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:03 pm

The whole basis for this argument was me telling you that the concept of Piccolo making the kind of massive leap in power that you suggested seems illogical, even by the standards of the series. I don't think the writers intended for us to consider Piccolo to be superior to everyone from the Buu saga, and if they did, that would be the pinnacle of lazy writing.

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