"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Regarder]

Random thoughts reading through, so sorry if this has already been discussed loads (I'm going to read through the thread afterwards):
Hit's time skip makes way more sense in the manga so far. He actually disappears completely and reappears in the future (an actual time skip/leap) rather than freezing everything, so Goku's tactic to beat that makes way way more sense. And they even explain why Hit keeps his hands in his pockets.

Then Vados starts talking about how Goku is going to run out of stamina because Hit doesn't use barely any to time leap. I don't think they mentioned that in the anime, but it would be a good way to build tension. (The problem with the manga, of course, is that it's a short, and everything is so compressed and resolved so quickly.) Okay, so Goku goes red form. Doesn't make sense with what was established, but I would have preferred if it was that way to begin with to be honest.

Oh no, they go and ruin it again halfway through by making it into a time freeze like the anime! So how did Goku move? Hit just couldn't slow him down enough. It seems cooler as a time skip, because it's more impressive to have Goku thinking ahead and predicting where he'll be, then just making it so Goku is too stronk to freeze. That's just another boring power based thing. The thing about special abilities is that they should be special and not just based on muh ki.

...Oh wow. They have to contort things badly to explain this. Vegeta wasn't able to use 1/10th of his strength? That just makes Hit seem less impressive.

Um... and now Hit just powers up... ? I have to assume that Toriyama wrote the barest skeleton of the story in order for it to end up this different.

[Chelentano]

Um... and now Hit just powers up... ? I have to assume that Toriyama wrote the barest skeleton of the story in order for it to end up this different.

I never understood Hit's strength in the anime version. He "grew" in the middle of the combat? I don't get why people think that made more sense than him hiding his power in the manga version.

[Regarder]

Um... and now Hit just powers up... ? I have to assume that Toriyama wrote the barest skeleton of the story in order for it to end up this different.

I never understood Hit's strength in the anime version. He "grew" in the middle of the combat? I don't get why people think that made more sense than him hiding his power in the manga version.

Either makes sense conceptually. Hit's ki is just really really responsive to training against a strong opponent. I just took it to mean that he's like the Saiyans only a 1000 times better at doing that. It's certainly a more impressive feat. Maybe the problem for you is that it's too impressive and comes out of nowhere.

[Chelentano]

Um... and now Hit just powers up... ? I have to assume that Toriyama wrote the barest skeleton of the story in order for it to end up this different.

I never understood Hit's strength in the anime version. He "grew" in the middle of the combat? I don't get why people think that made more sense than him hiding his power in the manga version.

Either makes sense conceptually. Hit's ki is just really really responsive to training against a strong opponent. I just took it to mean that he's like the Saiyans only a 1000 times better at doing that. It's certainly a more impressive feat. Maybe the problem for you is that it's too impressive and comes out of nowhere.

I think it was either a language misunderstood or I simply forgot that detail. My bad in any case. I was thinking of the explanation as if he grew up somehow and that made him stronger. Instead his ki growing against a strong oponent make sense and it is indeed an impressive feat. Thanks for the clarification.

In any case, I really liked manga's take on the fight and they made clear too that Hit is indeed much stronger if he can use all his techniques.

[fadeddreams5]

I'll be blunt: Hit's strength increasing in the anime made no ****ing sense.

When the saiyans grew stronger, it was because they faced life-threatening injuries in battle, and they wouldn't get this increase in power until they recovered. Hit was barely damaged all that much. He just grew stronger whenever he said he was going to....

That entire fight was a mess (albeit, entertaining).

The manga made much more sense.

[saiyanvegetable]

Yeah, the manga seems to be much more grounded in all aspects. I find myself enjoying it more than I thought I would.

[sintzu]

Yeah, the manga seems to be much more grounded in all aspects. I find myself enjoying it more than I thought I would.

Hopefully if they make a movie about it it'll follow the manga instead of the anime.

[Nejishiki]

If Champa's tournament has a film, I want them to creatively stir the pot and give us something new to view!

[sintzu]

If Champa's tournament has a film, I want them to creatively stir the pot and give us something new to view!

One thing they could do is give Piccolo the win against Frost, replace Monaka with Gohan & let Buu fight and defeat Botamo.

[LightBing]

[spoiler]Him going to x10 is completely arbitrary, it should have been explained. While what they gave us paints a picture, it still presents flaws. The viewers have to guess a lot. That's not good.
If Freeza got punched around by someone 10 times stronger than him, he would die. Bar regeneration, there's no example of a feat of durability that can withstand such a power gap in Dragon Ball. If Hit was capable of it, we had to be informed.
Why does it matter if this handicap is unheard of? SSJ3 insane ki consumption was also unheard of when it was introduced.

Vegeta powering down before fighting Hit, I agree completely. It's poor writing as simple as that.

This has been repeated in this thread many times over, RoF in the manga wasn't seen. You can't make up problems/assumptions based on other sources continuity's. If one's discussion is the manga, you can only use the manga information. The movies and the anime have no place here.

If you don't think the foreshadowing in the manga is satisfying, that's fine. Remember, Vegeta's fight in the manga was the first time Blue got a proper fight and therefore the logical place for it's nature to be revealed.

Regarding the 10% Vegeta line, SSJG is stronger than that Vegeta, Blue is even stronger than God. Obviously if Beerus were to fight Blue, more than 10% had to be used. For me there's no debate, this is a blatant contradiction[/spoiler].

[spoiler]I don't see how the Kaio-Ken is arbitrary, unless you're just don't like the number Goku used. Maybe you feel better if he just used a double or something. But the fact is that Dragon Ball character often get hit by moves that should splattered them across the ground, but don't. And Freeza survived a planet exploding on him when he had no ki left, was cut to pieces, and mortally blast by Goku, so it really just an assumption that he would died from a ten times force.

If you're going to bring up a handicap that has never been presented before, you need to give forewarning other than this form takes stamina, which is par the course with Super Saiyan. Goku said after he used Super Saiyan 3 that it burns through his energy and he used up almost his entire day pass just using it for a few minutes. Goku also said way back in the Cell Saga that Super Saiyan is a draining process, hence why Goku and Gohan tried to master their Super Saiyan forms instead of using Ultra Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't just presented as being draining from being used, it drains energy just by the transformation itself. No other transformation in the entire series, Super Saiyan or otherwise, have ever been presented with such a flaw. Golden Freeze burnt out because Freeza wasn't used to it and couldn't maintain his full power for long, the same as his original 100% power. It isn't like Freeza lost power by just becoming Golden Freeza.

And, I'm sorry, Toyotaro not doing the Resurrection 'F' arc is no excuse. He did the promotional manga for the movie, so he knows the script and the minute he skipped that arc, he assumed that people either watched the movie, watched the tv version of the movie, or at least read his promotional manga. You can't just turn around and said he retroactively changed events because he skipped it, especially when you have three versions of that event that are the same outside of some minor differences. If Toyotaro wanted to changed something to make his own version of Resurrection 'F' that showed us the major flaw in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or whatever that was different from the movie other than his promotional manga, he shouldn't have skipped, plain and simple. So no free pass for Toyotaro.

And it is still bad writing since such a big flaw should have been brought in in the last chapter at the ver least when Vegeta was getting his ass kicked. Why didn't Beerus asked why Vegeta has such a major drop in power? Why didn't Goku nor Whis note that Vegeta lost because he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too many times? Why didn't Vegeta berate himself for not keeping his transformation on after fighting Cabba? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprise if Toyotaro just came up with this flaw in this chapter which is why it all came out of nowhere.

I don't see the contradiction. 10% Beerus slapped Vegeta out of Super Saiyan and Vegeta didn't hurt him. So 10% against Vegeta was overkill.[/spoiler]

Agree to disagree, repeating all the same arguments is exhausting.

I do have to insist on one point which annoys me greatly; the manga is it's own continuity. It presents clear differences from the movies and anime. If it didn't, I wouldn't have any problem with people assuming RoF happened here as it did in the other sources.
Imagine me going into a manga discussion, pointing out how Goku in the anime is implied to be stronger than even Ultimate Gohan and that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo of them all. It's the same thing. Either discuss apples or discuss oranges, don't mix them.

Changing the subject, I wonder what the next chapter include. Probably ending with the Goku and Black, I'm thinking. How many think that SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku won't appear in the manga?

[ekrolo2]

Changing the subject, I wonder what the next chapter include. Probably ending with the Goku and Black, I'm thinking. How many think that SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku won't appear in the manga?

I really hope that doesn't happen simply because the manga is the only thing that mostly makes sense power-wise.

[dbgtFO]

Changing the subject, I wonder what the next chapter include. Probably ending with the Goku and Black, I'm thinking. How many think that SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku won't appear in the manga?

I really hope that doesn't happen simply because the manga is the only thing that mostly makes sense power-wise.

I do think that sparring sequence seems like typical Toei writing and a callback to DBZ. They've done a lot of that kind of fanservice.

[LuckyCat]

Put me in the manga did the Hit vs. Goku fight much better camp. I liked the way Goku explained Hit's hands being stuck in his pockets. I also like how it was explained that Vegeta could've won the match, but his soft-heartedness (or Saiyan pride) in training Cabba hurt his chances against Hit.

Then there's "Super Saiyan Red" making a comeback. I suppose it's similar to Kaio-ken making a comeback in the sense that it's an old form not seen for awhile, but frankly SSG being used at this point in the series makes much more sense. The multiplier of SSBlue x Kaioken sounds so extreme that you have to make up some wild theories to explain why Goku couldn't outpower Beerus with it.

The one thing I liked better in the anime was how Beerus' wish was handled. Obviously Toyotaro didn't have the pages to make a big scene with Beerus' wish, but still the fast pacing sort of killed the drama of Zarama's appearance. I sort of like how Beerus played it coy with his wish for Champa in the anime. So I'll definitely give the anime kudos for that.

Onward to Goku Black. Will Dabura appear in Toyotaro's version? Chances are slim!

[Nejishiki]

If he does appear, I imagine it will be in the background panel of Trunks giving away exposition.

[Miracles]

Random thoughts reading through, so sorry if this has already been discussed loads (I'm going to read through the thread afterwards):
Hit's time skip makes way more sense in the manga so far. He actually disappears completely and reappears in the future (an actual time skip/leap) rather than freezing everything, so Goku's tactic to beat that makes way way more sense. And they even explain why Hit keeps his hands in his pockets.

Then Vados starts talking about how Goku is going to run out of stamina because Hit doesn't use barely any to time leap. I don't think they mentioned that in the anime, but it would be a good way to build tension. (The problem with the manga, of course, is that it's a short, and everything is so compressed and resolved so quickly.) Okay, so Goku goes red form. Doesn't make sense with what was established, but I would have preferred if it was that way to begin with to be honest.

Oh no, they go and ruin it again halfway through by making it into a time freeze like the anime! So how did Goku move? Hit just couldn't slow him down enough. It seems cooler as a time skip, because it's more impressive to have Goku thinking ahead and predicting where he'll be, then just making it so Goku is too stronk to freeze. That's just another boring power based thing. The thing about special abilities is that they should be special and not just based on muh ki.

...Oh wow. They have to contort things badly to explain this. Vegeta wasn't able to use 1/10th of his strength? That just makes Hit seem less impressive.

Um... and now Hit just powers up... ? I have to assume that Toriyama wrote the barest skeleton of the story in order for it to end up this different.

Depending on which anime translation you read, the manga and anime were pretty much the same about Hit's ability leaping forward and freezing time.
The manga had more detail and I like the reason why Vegeta loss to Hit. It explains things, no way Vegeta who is on par with Goku can not compete or even be stronger than Hit.

[HeroR]

[spoiler]Him going to x10 is completely arbitrary, it should have been explained. While what they gave us paints a picture, it still presents flaws. The viewers have to guess a lot. That's not good.
If Freeza got punched around by someone 10 times stronger than him, he would die. Bar regeneration, there's no example of a feat of durability that can withstand such a power gap in Dragon Ball. If Hit was capable of it, we had to be informed.
Why does it matter if this handicap is unheard of? SSJ3 insane ki consumption was also unheard of when it was introduced.

Vegeta powering down before fighting Hit, I agree completely. It's poor writing as simple as that.

This has been repeated in this thread many times over, RoF in the manga wasn't seen. You can't make up problems/assumptions based on other sources continuity's. If one's discussion is the manga, you can only use the manga information. The movies and the anime have no place here.

If you don't think the foreshadowing in the manga is satisfying, that's fine. Remember, Vegeta's fight in the manga was the first time Blue got a proper fight and therefore the logical place for it's nature to be revealed.

Regarding the 10% Vegeta line, SSJG is stronger than that Vegeta, Blue is even stronger than God. Obviously if Beerus were to fight Blue, more than 10% had to be used. For me there's no debate, this is a blatant contradiction[/spoiler].

[spoiler]I don't see how the Kaio-Ken is arbitrary, unless you're just don't like the number Goku used. Maybe you feel better if he just used a double or something. But the fact is that Dragon Ball character often get hit by moves that should splattered them across the ground, but don't. And Freeza survived a planet exploding on him when he had no ki left, was cut to pieces, and mortally blast by Goku, so it really just an assumption that he would died from a ten times force.

If you're going to bring up a handicap that has never been presented before, you need to give forewarning other than this form takes stamina, which is par the course with Super Saiyan. Goku said after he used Super Saiyan 3 that it burns through his energy and he used up almost his entire day pass just using it for a few minutes. Goku also said way back in the Cell Saga that Super Saiyan is a draining process, hence why Goku and Gohan tried to master their Super Saiyan forms instead of using Ultra Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't just presented as being draining from being used, it drains energy just by the transformation itself. No other transformation in the entire series, Super Saiyan or otherwise, have ever been presented with such a flaw. Golden Freeze burnt out because Freeza wasn't used to it and couldn't maintain his full power for long, the same as his original 100% power. It isn't like Freeza lost power by just becoming Golden Freeza.

And, I'm sorry, Toyotaro not doing the Resurrection 'F' arc is no excuse. He did the promotional manga for the movie, so he knows the script and the minute he skipped that arc, he assumed that people either watched the movie, watched the tv version of the movie, or at least read his promotional manga. You can't just turn around and said he retroactively changed events because he skipped it, especially when you have three versions of that event that are the same outside of some minor differences. If Toyotaro wanted to changed something to make his own version of Resurrection 'F' that showed us the major flaw in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or whatever that was different from the movie other than his promotional manga, he shouldn't have skipped, plain and simple. So no free pass for Toyotaro.

And it is still bad writing since such a big flaw should have been brought in in the last chapter at the ver least when Vegeta was getting his ass kicked. Why didn't Beerus asked why Vegeta has such a major drop in power? Why didn't Goku nor Whis note that Vegeta lost because he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too many times? Why didn't Vegeta berate himself for not keeping his transformation on after fighting Cabba? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprise if Toyotaro just came up with this flaw in this chapter which is why it all came out of nowhere.

I don't see the contradiction. 10% Beerus slapped Vegeta out of Super Saiyan and Vegeta didn't hurt him. So 10% against Vegeta was overkill.[/spoiler]

Agree to disagree, repeating all the same arguments is exhausting.

I do have to insist on one point which annoys me greatly; the manga is it's own continuity. It presents clear differences from the movies and anime. If it didn't, I wouldn't have any problem with people assuming RoF happened here as it did in the other sources.
Imagine me going into a manga discussion, pointing out how Goku in the anime is implied to be stronger than even Ultimate Gohan and that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo of them all. It's the same thing. Either discuss apples or discuss oranges, don't mix them.

Changing the subject, I wonder what the next chapter include. Probably ending with the Goku and Black, I'm thinking. How many think that SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku won't appear in the manga?

The manga is its own continuity. But the moment it skipped the Reserrection 'F', it assumed that the readers knew the story and what happened. So you and others can't complain when fans rightfully point out when something goes against three versions of the same event. If he wanted to do something different, he shouldn't have skipped.

[Lord Beerus]

I'll be blunt: Hit's strength increasing in the anime made no ****ing sense.

When the saiyans grew stronger, it was because they faced life-threatening injuries in battle, and they wouldn't get this increase in power until they recovered. Hit was barely damaged all that much. He just grew stronger whenever he said he was going to....

That entire fight was a mess (albeit, entertaining).

The manga made much more sense.

Hit's strength doesn't increase in the anime. The only thing that Hit increases during his match with Goku is the amount of time he can freeza with his Time-Skip ability. Hell, when Hit actually "powers up", he only does because he saw Goku do it, and he didn't actually grow in raw strength. Goku even hit that Hit was holding back the entire fight when he stated he believes that Hit's true strength lies in when he's forced to kill people and Hit may have killed him by now had he not been holding back his killing techniques because of the tournament's rules.

[LuckyCat]

I'll be blunt: Hit's strength increasing in the anime made no ****ing sense.

When the saiyans grew stronger, it was because they faced life-threatening injuries in battle, and they wouldn't get this increase in power until they recovered. Hit was barely damaged all that much. He just grew stronger whenever he said he was going to....

That entire fight was a mess (albeit, entertaining).

The manga made much more sense.

Hit's strength doesn't increase in the anime. The only thing that Hit increases during his match with Goku is the amount of time he can freeza with his Time-Skip ability.

Not arguing that strength thing here, but Hit randomly being able to improve his time-stop ability in the middle of the match seems a bit far-fetched. I would've rather he had pulled the old "I'm not left-handed" bit and just said 0.1 seconds was all he needed for his opponents until now.

[Lord Beerus]

I'll be blunt: Hit's strength increasing in the anime made no ****ing sense.

When the saiyans grew stronger, it was because they faced life-threatening injuries in battle, and they wouldn't get this increase in power until they recovered. Hit was barely damaged all that much. He just grew stronger whenever he said he was going to....

That entire fight was a mess (albeit, entertaining).

The manga made much more sense.

Hit's strength doesn't increase in the anime. The only thing that Hit increases during his match with Goku is the amount of time he can freeza with his Time-Skip ability.

Not arguing that strength thing here, but Hit randomly being able to improve his time-stop ability in the middle of the match seems a bit far-fetched. I would've rather he had pulled the old "I'm not left-handed" bit and just said 0.1 seconds was all he needed for his opponents until now.

I'll be honest, I'm bloody sick and tired of whole "I'm not left-handed" trope. It's been outright abused in Dragon Ball, and quite frankly, it was breath of fresh air that a character, besides a Saiyan, was able to improve his abilities while in battle. It may seem a bit contrived, but it doesn't make any less than a Saiyan's strength spiking while on the brink of death or Freeza pulling three transformations out of his ass. I mean, all that's really established about Hit is that he could freeze time. The amount of which he could was never set in stone from the very beginning, so really there's nothing that can be really seen as inconsistent in regards to Hit being able to increase the amount of time he freeze while in battle. Especially considering he's one of the strongest beings in his universe and the greatest assassin in his universe.

[JulieYBM]

I just wanted to say I appreciated the reference to The Princess Bride, even if I never tire of the cliché myself. There's just something so satisfying about such a moment, especially in sports comics like Kuroko no Baske and Eyeshield 21. When the worst enemy suddenly pulls out their true power...damn, that's a moment I love. I don't think Toriyama's done it anywhere nearly as good as others, have. I think if he ever did do it well, it was with Freeza's first transformation and impaling of Kuririn. Otherwise it's been pretty boring in Dragon Ball.

Oh, while I'm at it, Kuririn was only mostly dead.