Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

No they don't, it's a tiny amount of people who think it might be a possibility

As usual, you're wrong. I conducted a little experiment on Reddit, and most people agree that the two base theory is true.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... se_theory/

This notion that no one has figured out the two base theory has to stop. Lol

Here are some quotes:

I cba to argue with mindless chickens who make up dumb assumptions to how characters reach god tier without prior training from whis.

Yes, but I think it is an inconsistency rather than a specific design choice. There is a version of their base forms that are stronger than SSJ3 (Goku vs trained Freeza), and a version that they use when not being serious (Goku vs Trunks). I don't think it will ever be acknowledged in the show though, so I just think of it as power suppression and just assume that when the fight isn't serious they are most likely suppressing their power.

One thing I know for sure though, is that we shouldn't use a friendly sparring match or weak opponent to gauge power levels. Goku could go from base to SSJ 1-3 or Blue and still hold back if he wanted to, so it's best not to make power level assumptions unless it's an all out fight.

Kinda, I think it's more of a power suppression thing and them not "tapping" into god ki all the time. Once stuff gets serious they tap into God ki and their power increases to insane amounts (See Gotenks SSJ3 vs Copy Vegeta).

I don't think it's properly worked out though and more of a writing convenience so that we can still have stuff such as Frunks vs. Goku without it being super one sided.

I didn't, but it makes sense after the Goku vs Trunks match.

I completely agree about the two base theory, sure it's a theory but it makes sense at the end of the day. People have also been using Piccolo as and example to make Gohan look stronger than he really is because of his fight with Frost so some people have been saying Gohan SSJ is stronger than his mystic form as they say Tagoma is around Mystic levels. So, just curious where would you put Gohan and Piccolo power wise?

I do believe in the 2 base theory.

But I doubt Toriyama and Toei care or are clever enough to have done that (no disrespect to AT) .

Two base theory is the only thing that makes sense, though I think bringing Dragon Ball Heroes into it is irrelevant, unless they explicitly bring in other elements from the game and make them canon. It also has the side effect of making sure that less powerful characters can still deal with threats like Frost while Goku and Vegeta are around to deal with people like Hit.

Also to add on, regular base Vegeta has always had a blue aura. God ki Vegeta has a white aura(as does Goku).

Going to side with the god ki being an optional powerup the user can tap into anytime after learning it.

Though I wonder if Toriyama/Toyotaro got some ideas from Narutos Sage mode.

There's a lot more people who agree with the two base theory than those who don't. Yes, a teeny tiny majority. Don't be silly lol. You're wrong again.

[Bullza]

Most people = a handful of people from the millions upon millions who have no reason to believe the theory exists....

Even the ones you just quoted include someone who said he doesn't believe Toei or Toriyama would have done that. Well obviously Toriyama wouldn't. Then there's people who just mention him being suppressed.

This one is just flat out wrong anyway.

"Also to add on, regular base Vegeta has always had a blue aura. God ki Vegeta has a white aura(as does Goku)."

In that thread you gave 5 response for why the theory is true.

1. You question why Goku would have to go SSJ against Frost who hasn't trained but was stronger in Base than Frieza who has trained. Yet you already acknowledged that Frost without training is vastly stronger than Frieza without training so you know they aren't the same.

They're mutants born with unnaturally large power, Frieza's mutation made him far more powerful than King Cold and Frost's mutation made him more than powerful than Frieza's potential. Simple.

2. Piccolo better than Base Goku? Not once said ever at any point in either the manga or the anime. You are assuming something and presenting it as fact when if anything facts show the opposite is true.

3. Why so many God level characters in U6? Because the plot calls for it. It called for characters to be at a high enough level to challenge the protagonists.

Why was Dr Gero and the teenagers turned cyborgs at Super Saiyan level? Wasn't SSJ Goku and Frieza supposed to be the strongest being in the entire universe? Because the plot called for them to be.

4. Majin Buu was never hyped up. That one is just a straight up lie. They removed him from the Tournament so that must mean he could have beat everyone! Two bases confirmed! No.

5. Goku went SSJ2 against Trunks because he'd powered up enough for Goku to have to...or he went SSJ2 just to match him as he said.

"But why is Trunks so strong blah blah" because the plot called for him to be.

So yeah like I said none of the arguments that have been given are any good, in fact they're actually pretty bad.

[buutenks]

While the 2 base theory is nice and all, it was never even hinted at in either the manga or the anime. Which is why i dont consider it as fact, merely a theory.

I believe that base goku,ssj goku etc are simply super strong thanks to whis training, and in turn gohan, piccolo and trunks got close to that power due to them training and in trunks case, going trhough allot. But compared to ssg and ssgss, ssj1,2,3 goku or vegeta or gohan or piccolo or cabba or FF frost or FF freeza dont even register. They are basically ants compared to ssg and ssgss and golden freeza and hit.

Edit:

This is how i view the current power chart:

God tiers/Hit,Golden Freeza,ssgss,ssg beerus etc

Normal tiers/future trunks,ssj1,2,3 goku, vegeta,piccolo,gohan,magetta.cabba etc

buu saga characters

[supercat]

I love how you're calling me arrogant, when it's you who constantly pushes on some ridiculous theory that has not yet once been proven. Then you go on to say that I have horrible arguments, when I personally haven't seen you post anything even worthy of debate. It's always the same nonsense about how real the two base theory is.

Funny you should say that most people actually have started to think it's true ever since the last ep.

The people on Reddit are much more intelligent and reasonable than some here. I mean look at https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... _spoilers/, everyone is being reasonable and saying Trunks is SSJ2 Vegeta level back in the Buu Arc, not saying stupid things like "HE CAN BEAT SSJ3 GOTENKS IN BASE!" Anyone who honestly thinks Base Mirai Trunks > SSJ3 Gotenks should not be taken seriously.

Almost everyone has started to accept the two base theory except a few stubborn folks here like Bullza, supercat, HeroR who aren't very reasonable. The two base theory is the most commonly accepted view in power levels now.

Piccolo keeping up with his training has nothing to do with how intense that form of training was, especially when he lacked a superior sparring partner.

This is Dragon Ball, if character a isn't worn out whereas character b is, maybe it's because character a is slightly stronger...?

I find this nonchalant attitude of certainty especially hilarious because you have no facts to back up your arguments whatsoever. Oh and in case it wasn't blatantly obvious enough, this is an open discussion where people share their speculations; for you someone to say that their theory is the one and only truth not only makes them come off extremely ignorant, but also laughably silly.

No facts? I gave you two Youtube videos.

Here is what you said:

Was there even a need for Piccolo to train during those 7 years?

No.

You clearly implied that he never trained, at all. You simply said there was no need for him to train. LOL

Oh, so now anything a handful of fans believe to be true is automatically true?

Not that it matters, but I'm pretty sure there are more people who don't believe in the two base theory outside of the ones you listed.

I find it hilarious how you're quoting me from an earlier post and seemingly taking things out of context.

I thought I was pretty clear, but apparently some people find it difficult to properly decipher a post unless it's rewritten at least a few times.

How is having no need to train the same as not training? When I said that, I meant he didn't have the need to go above and beyond as he once did. That's completely different than not training at all. But since that's apparently difficult to interpret, I'll say it in such a way that makes it even more blatantly obvious than it already is; he didn't see the need to train as hard as he once did, so he kicked it down several notches.

I also mentioned around that time that he lacked a superior sparring partner; meaning, he presumably followed a training regimen that paled in comparison to his training with Goku. Cherry picking quotes and taking things out of context doesn't really serve any purpose, other than make this debate ridiculously easy for me. But hey, your weak arguments could use all the help they can get, so by all means, go for it.

[Kaboom]

This thread needs to become a whole lot friendlier right away, okay? I've already handed out at least one formal forum warning and I don't want to do more.

This is Kanzenshuu. Discussions about power levels here are not meant to be — nor should they be — glorified junk-swinging contests where the most popular theory "wins" the so-called debate. If this stuff can't be discussed in an amicable manner with mutual respect, then it won't be discussed at all.

[LowRyder2005]

If you want to be rational, both parties have no means to statistically deduct anything with a suitable level of confidence; it'd probably mean you'd have to interview a thousand or so of Dragon Ball fans with an optimal stratified sampling. That being said, the contrary to the is equally biased as well ("very little people would agree with this [just because I believe they would]"). It's a textbook argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Therefore, both "most/little people would agree with my/your theory" are merely opinions here. I think it's fair to say that this should be the common ground before attempting to discuss.

That being said, Chiki is right in saying that more than one person here came to the same conclusion through independent reasoning. Of course, it's an inductive proof with a very clear limit (inductiveness); however, there are at least some logical premises to the claim that the "two base forms" can be a thing regardless of them being referenced in Super or other Dragon-ball related media: if we follow ad litteram "Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan + Godly ki", then "Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue − Godly ki". It means that if God ki is normally "on" for Goku, he'd have to consciously turn it "off" to become a regular Super Saiyan. If he can consciously turn it "off" for his base (and it could be the case, otherwise, his Super Saiyan would arguably be always inferior to his base) then it means that his base can be at two distinct, and drastically different, levels of power. In my experience, people who are very dismissive of the theory still act on the alternative interpretation that God ki can't be turned off... which means, again, that it's still a subjective conclusion.

And let me add one thing: is it so hard to conceive that for some people X or Y could amount to bad writing? Because it's not the first time I see people acting like some sort of thought police. If "X happens it makes perfect sense, and if you don't agree with this you're silly", or "X can't happen, and if you don't agree with it you're dumb". As if Dragon Ball was above questionable plotholes in general?
In conclusion: of course, the "two base theory" could be proven wrong in the very next episode, but in all likelihood some people would still find Piccolo and Trunks rising to "above SS3 levels" somewhat incoherent with the plot progression we have grown accustomed with. Still, as much or less improbable as it may be, this is a matter of personal taste as well. I think it may be abysmal writing, some people may not. No reason to be abrasive over it.

I'd invite everyone to get a good read on this, perhaps it may help you to reach a more positive outlook on internet debates in general.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10 ... re-effect/

I'd say it's the sequel to Kai rather than Z.

Yes, of course. I'm actually one of those who uses them in a more or less interchangeable fashion, but it'd be more accurate to call Super a "Kai sequel" (or midquel, if you want to get technical).

[Bullza]

if we follow ad litteram "Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan + Godly ki", then "Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue − Godly ki". It means that if God ki is normally "on" for Goku, he'd have to consciously turn it "off" to become a regular Super Saiyan.

That logically makes sense and could have been a fair point but we know that Super Saiyan (for Goku at least) is insignificantly weaker than Super Saiyan God. At that time he didn't have Godly Ki because he could be sensed but he still had the power.

So the current Super Saiyan is far above the likes of the Super Saiyan prior. Unless there's also a two Super Saiyan theory and the Super Saiyan that fought Beerus is drastically more powerful than the Super Saiyan who fought Frost.

On top of that it's still not clear how Super Saiyan Blue works because there was all that stuff about them powering up their Ki without letting it leak out which seemed as though that had something to do with the form.

Realistically this

SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

Is far more realistic than this

SSJB > SSJ > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

[Cabba]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

I dont think he will go there, if anything there will be a new SSGodly transformation as its been hinted
Akira already classified SS2/SS3 and above as irrelevant, if they are present it will be for fan service

SSJB > SSJ > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

But this is what was shown on Battle of Gods or you do not consider that to be relevant anymore?

[HeroR]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

I dont think he will go there, if anything there will be a new SSGodly transformation as its been hinted
Akira already classified SS2/SS3 and above as irrelevant, if they are present it will be for fan service

SSJB > SSJ > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

But this is what was shown on Battle of Gods or you do not consider that to be relevant anymore?

What they mean is that after Goku absorbed godhood it powered up his base form, which in turn powered up all Goku's Super Saiyan forms. So Super Saiyan 3 Goku currently is way stronger than Super Saiyan seen before he met Beerus. The reason he doesn't use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 is because they're impractical energy drains and it's better to master Super Saiyan.

Which is what I mean when I say there is no 'Super Saiyan level'. Super Saiyan is a multiplier of a Saiyans' base forms. The stronger the base, the stronger the Super Saiyan form.

[Chiki]

Just to make it clear, I wasn't trying to prove that the two base theory is true with a majority view fallacy (most people believe it's true, therefore it's true. As someone who took more than 12 graduate level classes in philosophy as an undergrad I think I can reason better than that). It seems like some of you misunderstood that part of my argument. I was simply trying to prove that it is not a view held by a very small minority, which I have successfully done, and I do not need a large sample size of thousands of DB fans on Reddit for that.

Bullza keeps constantly repeating that only a few people have even thought of and discussed the two base theory. I decided to test that claim. Most people in my thread actually think the two base theory is true! A pleasant surprise.

[Xeztin]

In the anime: In my opinion it's unclear if Goku has two bases, unless he can turn God Ki on in base with no visual appearance changes. It depends if he can go SSG still for me I suppose unless he's using its power in his normal appearance.

In the manga: I'm with the two base theory - Base Goku>SSJ>SSJ2>SSJ3 and the other would be SSG Goku (his second base)>SSJB. For this to make sense Vegeta also needs the ability to go SSG. The reason I'm counting SSG as a second base is because a Super Saiyan form to a red base looking form back to a Super Saiyan form (Blue) makes no sense. I'm also assuming that Goku and Vegeta can skip SSG and go straight into SSJB since that's what we've seen Goku do up until now.

If SSG will appear again in the anime it should be in this arc.

[HeroR]

Double post

[HeroR]

Double post

[HeroR]

In the anime: In my opinion it's unclear if Goku has two bases, unless he can turn God Ki on in base with no visual appearance changes. It depends if he can go SSG still for me I suppose unless he's using its power in his normal appearance.

In the manga: I'm with the two base theory - Base Goku>SSJ>SSJ2>SSJ3 and the other would be SSG Goku (his second base)>SSJB. For this to make sense Vegeta also needs the ability to go SSG. The reason I'm counting SSG as a second base is because a Super Saiyan form to a red base looking form back to a Super Saiyan form (Blue) makes no sense. I'm also assuming that Goku and Vegeta can skip SSG and go straight into SSJB since that's what we've seen Goku do up until now.

Even if Goku goes Super Saiyan God in the anime, the two base theory still wouldn't work. Goku fought final form Freeza in his base form, whereas first form Freeza from his easy chair put holes in Super Saiyan Gohan and killed Piccolo with a single Death Beam. Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are also the only forms that has God energy. Before Goku went into those forms, his friends were able to sense him despite Goku fighting Beerus and Freeza. Which means even without God energy, Goku's base is on a completely different level than before. And if we count Copy-Vegeta, Goku easily stopped him from killing Goten and Trunks when he teleported in when Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could do nothing.

[Chiki]

In the anime: In my opinion it's unclear if Goku has two bases, unless he can turn God Ki on in base with no visual appearance changes. It depends if he can go SSG still for me I suppose unless he's using its power in his normal appearance.

In the manga: I'm with the two base theory - Base Goku>SSJ>SSJ2>SSJ3 and the other would be SSG Goku (his second base)>SSJB. For this to make sense Vegeta also needs the ability to go SSG. The reason I'm counting SSG as a second base is because a Super Saiyan form to a red base looking form back to a Super Saiyan form (Blue) makes no sense. I'm also assuming that Goku and Vegeta can skip SSG and go straight into SSJB since that's what we've seen Goku do up until now.

Even if Goku goes Super Saiyan God in the anime, the two base theory still wouldn't work. Goku fought final form Freeza in his base form, whereas first form Freeza from his easy chair put holes in Super Saiyan Gohan and killed Piccolo with a single Death Beam. Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are also the only forms that has God energy. Before Goku went into those forms, his friends were able to sense him despite Goku fighting Beerus and Freeza. Which means even without God energy, Goku's base is on a completely different level than before. And if we count Copy-Vegeta, Goku easily stopped him from killing Goten and Trunks when he teleported in when Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could do nothing.

I don't understand how this is supposed to prove that the two base theory doesn't work. I even use the bolded as an argument than Goku has access to SSG power in Base.

[HeroR]

I don't understand how this is supposed to prove that the two base theory doesn't work. I even use the bolded as an argument than Goku has access to SSG power in Base.

He has the power of Super Saiyan God in his base, but it isn't God energy, it's just his normal ki. If it was God energy, then no one except a select few should be able to sense him. Instead, everyone sensed Goku until he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. By the two base theory Goku has a base with God ki and one without God ki. Which doesn't work since Goku's ki is felt in all form except Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So only those forms explicitly use God ki.

[Chiki]

I don't understand how this is supposed to prove that the two base theory doesn't work. I even use the bolded as an argument than Goku has access to SSG power in Base.

He has the power of Super Saiyan God in his base, but it isn't God energy, it's just his normal ki. If it was God energy, then no one except a select few should be able to sense him. Instead, everyone sensed Goku until he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. By the two base theory Goku has a base with God ki and one without God ki. Which doesn't work since Goku's ki is felt in all form except Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So only those forms explicitly use God ki.

I already explained this to you but you it seems you didn't even bother to read my reply.

When Goku lost SSG, he either:

1. Learned how to compensate for the loss of SSG's godly ki with an equal amount of regular ki (in terms of power) which can be sensed OR
2. Learned how to mix his regular ki in base with SSG's godly ki, half of which can be sensed

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Or he absorbed the God Power and became a lot more powerful overall. Less complicated and actually goes along with what is shown.

[Chiki]

Or he absorbed the God Power and became a lot more powerful overall. Less complicated and actually goes along with what is shown.

And then we have to deal with how Piccolo and Future Trunks gained god power without training with Whis. We've been through this already and there's no need to repeat it.

[HeroR]

I don't understand how this is supposed to prove that the two base theory doesn't work. I even use the bolded as an argument than Goku has access to SSG power in Base.

He has the power of Super Saiyan God in his base, but it isn't God energy, it's just his normal ki. If it was God energy, then no one except a select few should be able to sense him. Instead, everyone sensed Goku until he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. By the two base theory Goku has a base with God ki and one without God ki. Which doesn't work since Goku's ki is felt in all form except Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So only those forms explicitly use God ki.

I already explained this to you but you it seems you didn't even bother to read my reply.

When Goku lost SSG, he either:

1. Learned how to compensate for the loss of SSG's godly ki with an equal amount of regular ki (in terms of power) which can be sensed OR
2. Learned how to mix his regular ki in base with SSG's godly ki, half of which can be sensed

Why would half God energy be sense? That doesn't even make sense and no such thing has been hinted or stated.

Goku didn't have to learn to compensate. He kept the power of godhood without even realizing he did it. Super Saiyan God became his base naturally without the need for God energy, which is why Beerus called Goku a genius.