Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Vegeta didn't reach anywhere near god level between the Cell games and the Buu arc. That was 7 years. Wrong.

But that's following logic, the series does not work like that. As Tagoma proved.

In the Namek saga it was all about the Zenkai boost. Vegeta was beaten and knocked out cold and almost drowned against Zarbon. His power went up 25%.

Goku was beaten by Vegeta but he was still conscious yet his power increased 33 fold. Vegeta had a hole blasted through him and was seconds from death and his boost was nothing like that.

It happened that way though because the plot called for Goku to be stronger than the others after healing.

Vegeta didn't get to God level between the Cell and Buu arcs because that level didn't exist within the plot back then. It does exist now though and so characters are of that level now.

You don't have to like it. I don't like Yamcha being stronger than Raditz, I don't like Krillin being able to kill 5 Raditz with one move, I don't like Guru putting his hand on Krillin's head and now he's stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta, I don't like how Dr Gero tampered with a teenage girl and made her vastly more powerful than the known strongest beings in the universe, I don't like Frieza doing a few months of training and him surpassing Super Vegito etc

But that's how this series works.

Goku's power-ups on Namek are probably the most BS power gain in the series. He went from weaker than 18,000 Vegeta, to having a power level of 3 million in just a few days. Or Piccolo going from being weaker than third form Freeza to beating up someone stronger than Freeza's true form in four years.

[TheMikado]

^ so what you're saying is that power levels and writing and have always been shit, it's just been incredibly obvious now. Although I will say the power gains in DBZ were much more hard won than Super's.

[HeroR]

^ so what you're saying is that power levels and writing and have always been shit, it's just been incredibly obvious now. Although I will say the power gains in DBZ were much more hard won than Super's.

That's because you're younger when watching Z and didn't think about the power gains. The same with most people watching Super. Most fans actually don't give two craps about power levels or power scaling. They just want to see their favorite character fight.

[Cabba]

What they mean is that after Goku absorbed godhood it powered up his base form, which in turn powered up all Goku's Super Saiyan forms. So Super Saiyan 3 Goku currently is way stronger than Super Saiyan seen before he met Beerus. The reason he doesn't use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 is because they're impractical energy drains and it's better to master Super Saiyan.
Which is what I mean when I say there is no 'Super Saiyan level'. Super Saiyan is a multiplier of a Saiyans' base forms. The stronger the base, the stronger the Super Saiyan form.

I can deal with that, and SS2/SS3 appearing from time to time falls in line with fan service
I have the following question for anyone passionate about the second bases (both side for and against)
Scenario 1
Assuming Trunks SS2 is Majin Tier, isn't it reasonable to assume Goku just suppressed his godhood as you put it so that he could gauge Trunks power with the Traditional pre BoG SS2 and SS3 levels
Scenario 2
The whole thing was fan service and should not be taken at face value, Goku base could easily taken out Trunks SS2 but for bling bling they decided to make SS bonanza

[HeroR]

SSJB > SSJ > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

But this is what was shown on Battle of Gods or you do not consider that to be relevant anymore?

What they mean is that after Goku absorbed godhood it powered up his base form, which in turn powered up all Goku's Super Saiyan forms. So Super Saiyan 3 Goku currently is way stronger than Super Saiyan seen before he met Beerus. The reason he doesn't use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 is because they're impractical energy drains and it's better to master Super Saiyan.
Which is what I mean when I say there is no 'Super Saiyan level'. Super Saiyan is a multiplier of a Saiyans' base forms. The stronger the base, the stronger the Super Saiyan form.[/quote]
I can deal with that, and SS2/SS3 appearing from time to time falls in line with fan service
I have the following question for anyone passionate about the second bases (both side for and against)
Scenario 1
Assuming Trunks SS2 is Majin Tier, isn't it reasonable to assume Goku just suppressed his godhood as you put it so that he could gauge Trunks power with the Traditional pre BoG SS2 and SS3 levels
Scenario 2
The whole thing was fan service and should not be taken at face value, Goku base could easily taken out Trunks SS2 but for bling bling they decided to make SS bonanza[/quote]

Goku did nothing but block Trunks' attacks before one-shotting him as a Super Saiyan 3. There was really nothing to see other than, cool Trunks got Super Saiyan 2.

[Bullza]

Well it's not that they're particularly shit, they're just not taken as seriously as we take them.

Usually the main characters will reach a high level of power for the first time through hard work or some new form and raise the power level stakes and then just for simplicity the side characters will easily play catch up.

Goku spent 3 years training on Kami's lookout yet the other Z Fighters who trained on Kami's lookout grew several times as strong even though they were only on there for less than a year.

Goku went through some ritual involving 5 other Saiyans to reach a level he couldn't even imagine existed...Vegeta and Frieza trained for a few months.

They reach a level that's incredible and unreachable at first but then once it's been done and the awe has gone the others just catch up.

[Cabba]

Goku did nothing but block Trunks' attacks before one-shotting him as a Super Saiyan 3. There was really nothing to see other than, cool Trunks got Super Saiyan 2.

Sorry about that, really messed up the quote thing, fixed now
If trunks is SS2 majin saga tier, then goku should be able to destroy him in his base form. thats where the confusion comes from
The best explanation i could come up with is that he suppressed his god hood so that he could use the SS transformations the old way

[TheMikado]

The mechanisms to get Goku and Vegeta to that point though were pretty extensive. It involved both training at 100x gravity and several life threatening battles that they lost and had to recover from.
Basically the road to those gains didn't feel nearly as paved with BS.

That being said I feel there is a third option. I just reviewed the Super manga and it appears Goku only fought Beerus as SSG and no other forms after. My guess based on the return of SSG on the Champa arc is that SSG was intended to be Gokus 2nd base with God Ki, but Toei messed it up pretty badly and now we have this whole all characters are God tier or 2 base theory mess going on. Basically I believe in a base God Ki form but I do not believe it was suppose to actually look like his base and that SSG form plays that role in the manga and fits very neatly there within its own continualty.

[HeroR]

Goku did nothing but block Trunks' attacks before one-shotting him as a Super Saiyan 3. There was really nothing to see other than, cool Trunks got Super Saiyan 2.

Sorry about that, really messed up the quote thing, fixed now
If trunks is SS2 majin saga tier, then goku should be able to destroy him in his base form. thats where the confusion comes from
The best explanation i could come up with is that he suppressed his god hood so that he could use the SS transformations the old way

He probably could've destroyed Trunks in his base form, but that wasn't the point of the sparring session. Goku wanted to know Black's power compared to him and he showed Trunks the next level of Super Saiyan since Trunks reached Super Saiyan 2. He didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for that since Trunks can't sense God ki at his level.

[Cabba]

For people complaining about writing
I think its up to the plot how fast and how much a character progresses
In the 3 years of training for the androids, Vegeta and piccolo were the ones who advanced the most, goku barely did at all
In 7 years of Training Vegeta first of all mastered SS1 and surpassed Cell Saga Goku and was in a developed enough state to handle SS2

Then in 3 years? post majin bu events Vegeta was able to surpass Goku SS3, when whis came to visit bulma he saw Vegeta progress since BoG events but told him the way he trains is not very efficient and if he learned to control his ki on a different way hw would be able to surpass anyone even goku. Whis just taught him to handle his ki differently to push all known boundaries before , so vegeta was taught something goku learned on the spot while fighting (SSG absortion) could be said
So it makes sense for Vegeta to show a huge grow, he always had the ability and potential all he needed were proper training

Likewise if the plot demand i wouldn't feel its out of place for piccolo to show a huge grow if he trains with Gohan and the plot requires it
Who says or who determines why a character should hit a hard limit , its up to the plot requirement how strong a character gets, Piccolo definitely has the potential

[Cabba]

He probably could've destroyed Trunks in his base form, but that wasn't the point of the sparring session. Goku wanted to know Black's power compared to him and he showed Trunks the next level of Super Saiyan since Trunks reached Super Saiyan 2. He didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for that since Trunks can't sense God ki at his level.

Thats what i mean though, thats why its confusing without explanation
If he could obliterate Trunk SS2 in his base form, then SS2 goku should have been so huge there would be no need to go SS3, Trunks should have been surprised by Gokus SS2 and thrown him his max power attack he reserved for Gokus SS3 transformation

So Goku Suppressed his powers, so that his SS2/SS3 were traditional transformations without the godhood he acquired while fighting beerus on BoG

[HeroR]

He probably could've destroyed Trunks in his base form, but that wasn't the point of the sparring session. Goku wanted to know Black's power compared to him and he showed Trunks the next level of Super Saiyan since Trunks reached Super Saiyan 2. He didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for that since Trunks can't sense God ki at his level.

Thats what i mean though, thats why its confusing without explanation
If he could obliterate Trunk SS2 in his base form, then SS2 goku should have been so huge there would be no need to go SS3, Trunks should have been surprised by Gokus SS2 and thrown him his max power attack he reserved for Gokus SS3 transformation

So Goku Suppressed his powers, so that his SS2/SS3 were traditional transformations without the godhood he acquired while fighting beerus on BoG

I don't see the confusion here. Goku went Super Saiyan 2 to show off, the same with Super Saiyan 3. Smashing Trunks into puddle wasn't the point. He obviously held back since even a semi-serious Goku could have killed Trunks. And don't see why Trunks would be thrown off by Goku's power. He fought Black Goku for a year who was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku without transformating.

[Xeztin]

In the anime: In my opinion it's unclear if Goku has two bases, unless he can turn God Ki on in base with no visual appearance changes. It depends if he can go SSG still for me I suppose unless he's using its power in his normal appearance.

In the manga: I'm with the two base theory - Base Goku>SSJ>SSJ2>SSJ3 and the other would be SSG Goku (his second base)>SSJB. For this to make sense Vegeta also needs the ability to go SSG. The reason I'm counting SSG as a second base is because a Super Saiyan form to a red base looking form back to a Super Saiyan form (Blue) makes no sense. I'm also assuming that Goku and Vegeta can skip SSG and go straight into SSJB since that's what we've seen Goku do up until now.

Even if Goku goes Super Saiyan God in the anime, the two base theory still wouldn't work. Goku fought final form Freeza in his base form, whereas first form Freeza from his easy chair put holes in Super Saiyan Gohan and killed Piccolo with a single Death Beam. Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are also the only forms that has God energy. Before Goku went into those forms, his friends were able to sense him despite Goku fighting Beerus and Freeza. Which means even without God energy, Goku's base is on a completely different level than before. And if we count Copy-Vegeta, Goku easily stopped him from killing Goten and Trunks when he teleported in when Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could do nothing.

Super Saiyan's a multiplier and without a strong base it's output will be crap (Gohan). The only way you can make sense of that is to say it's because Gohan is extremely weak now and Freeza trained so he's stronger in his first form than Piccolo. Goku has also trained a lot and Goku's base could easily be on par with SSJ2 from his SSJ2 form in the Boo Saga. That's the only way to explain Goku's base fighting a true form Freeza, Freeza and Goku have both gotten stronger since Namek. Trunks and Goten are also weak bases, them fused even at a SSJ3 multiplier could be a lot weaker than even Piccolo since they don't train either like Gohan. I do not believe Goku's normal base is on par with the SSG or leagues stronger because of what happened in Super with the God Ki thing. Goku using SSJ2 and 3 against Trunks almost immediately confirms his normal base isn't on par with SSG. If Goku could use God Ki in base they'd almost surely make a noticeable difference like Toyotaro did in the manga with the re-appearance of SSG. I believe Goku's God Ki in base IS SSG and I believe we'll see it again in the anime and if SSG wasn't meant to be Goku's "Second base" I don't think they'd have gave the form base hair.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan's a multiplier and without a strong base it's output will be crap (Gohan). The only way you can make sense of that is to say it's because Gohan is extremely weak now and Freeza trained so he's stronger in his first form than Piccolo. Goku has also trained a lot and Goku's base could easily be on par with SSJ2 from his SSJ2 form in the Boo Saga. That's the only way to explain Goku's base fighting a true form Freeza, Freeza and Goku have both gotten stronger since Namek. Trunks and Goten are also weak bases, them fused even at a SSJ3 multiplier could be a lot weaker than even Piccolo since they don't train either like Gohan. I do not believe Goku's normal base is on par with the SSG or leagues stronger because of what happened in Super with the God Ki thing. Goku using SSJ2 and 3 against Trunks almost immediately confirms his normal base isn't on par with SSG. If Goku could use God Ki in base they'd almost surely make a noticeable difference like Toyotaro did in the manga with the re-appearance of SSG. I believe Goku's God Ki in base IS SSG and I believe we'll see it again in the anime and if SSG wasn't meant to be Goku's "Second base" I don't think they'd have gave the form base hair.

First form Freeza is way higher that Super Saiyan 2 from the Cell Saga. First of all, Super Saiyan Gohan is only a little weaker than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan said while fighting Ginyu that he can't reach into his full power since he's out of shape and needed to become a Super Saiyan. There is also the fact that Gohan's base was stronger than Piccolo whose power is in-between Semi-Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell. Which means Freeza was as strong as one of the Buu forms just in his first form. If we really lowball Freeza, his first form will have to be above Super Perfect Cell's level to kill Piccolo with one Death Beam and put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan.

Also, if Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks dropped in power so much that he's only around Cell Saga's levels, I think someone would have comment on it, namely Vegeta and Copy-Vegeta would have lied into Gotenks' ass for slacking off. Instead, Copy-Vegeta praised the boy for their effects against him.

And you still haven't explained how Goku is being sensed in his base for Super Saiyan forms if they're using god ki to enhanced it since god ki can't be felt except for a few people. When Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, it was specifically noted that they couldn't feel him anymore. Even when Goku dropped out of Super Saiyan God during his fight with Beerus, everyone noted that they could feel Goku again, despite his power not dropping and he could still fight Beerus without dying in two hints like Super Saiyan 3 Goku. If Super Saiyan God was really meant to be Goku's second base, Beerus would have killed Goku after he lost the transformation and they wouldn't be any lines about Goku absorbing godhood.

Also, Goku didn't need to use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 against Trunks. He only turned Super Saiyan 2 to show off to Trunks and Trunks didn't even hurt him while attacking. He then went Super Saiyan 3 to show Trunks the next level.

[Muffin Man]

The mechanisms to get Goku and Vegeta to that point though were pretty extensive. It involved both training at 100x gravity and several life threatening battles that they lost and had to recover from.
Basically the road to those gains didn't feel nearly as paved with BS.

Another important aspect was how the gains were always acknowledged. Even if a particular gain was a complete asspull, the characters reacted the way you'd expect from an asspull. Goku stands outside the recovery chamber in awed silence, amazed at this new power that's suddenly awoken inside him. Vegeta goes into arrogance overdrive when he recovers from Krillin's blast and thinks he's a super saiyan. Piccolo has his famous "I can do this!" moment after fusing with Nail.

These kinds of things helped the relation of power between characters feel real and substantial, unlike the wishy washy nebulous mess it's become now.

[Xeztin]

Super Saiyan's a multiplier and without a strong base it's output will be crap (Gohan). The only way you can make sense of that is to say it's because Gohan is extremely weak now and Freeza trained so he's stronger in his first form than Piccolo. Goku has also trained a lot and Goku's base could easily be on par with SSJ2 from his SSJ2 form in the Boo Saga. That's the only way to explain Goku's base fighting a true form Freeza, Freeza and Goku have both gotten stronger since Namek. Trunks and Goten are also weak bases, them fused even at a SSJ3 multiplier could be a lot weaker than even Piccolo since they don't train either like Gohan. I do not believe Goku's normal base is on par with the SSG or leagues stronger because of what happened in Super with the God Ki thing. Goku using SSJ2 and 3 against Trunks almost immediately confirms his normal base isn't on par with SSG. If Goku could use God Ki in base they'd almost surely make a noticeable difference like Toyotaro did in the manga with the re-appearance of SSG. I believe Goku's God Ki in base IS SSG and I believe we'll see it again in the anime and if SSG wasn't meant to be Goku's "Second base" I don't think they'd have gave the form base hair.

First form Freeza is way higher that Super Saiyan 2 from the Cell Saga. First of all, Super Saiyan Gohan is only a little weaker than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan said while fighting Ginyu that he can't reach into his full power since he's out of shape and needed to become a Super Saiyan. There is also the fact that Gohan's base was stronger than Piccolo whose power is in-between Semi-Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell. Which means Freeza was as strong as one of the Buu forms just in his first form. If we really lowball Freeza, his first form will have to be above Super Perfect Cell's level to kill Piccolo with one Death Beam and put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan.

Also, if Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks dropped in power so much that he's only around Cell Saga's levels, I think someone would have comment on it, namely Vegeta and Copy-Vegeta would have lied into Gotenks' ass for slacking off. Instead, Copy-Vegeta praised the boy for their effects against him.

And you still haven't explained how Goku is being sensed in his base for Super Saiyan forms if they're using god ki to enhanced it since god ki can't be felt except for a few people. When Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, it was specifically noted that they couldn't feel him anymore. Even when Goku dropped out of Super Saiyan God during his fight with Beerus, everyone noted that they could feel Goku again, despite his power not dropping and he could still fight Beerus without dying in two hints like Super Saiyan 3 Goku. If Super Saiyan God was really meant to be Goku's second base, Beerus would have killed Goku after he lost the transformation and they wouldn't be any lines about Goku absorbing godhood.

Also, Goku didn't need to use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 against Trunks. He only turned Super Saiyan 2 to show off to Trunks and Trunks didn't even hurt him while attacking. He then went Super Saiyan 3 to show Trunks the next level.

I don't think that Beerus was going to kill Goku at all after the fun he had on Earth, and the only way I can explain Goku being sensed after he dropped out of SSG and keeping the power is what was stated (I think by Beerus): That Goku knew the feeling of what it meant to be a god (Or something along the lines of that) and held onto it. I don't really recall it being stated that he "absorbed" the God Ki. The power of SSG could have vanished the moment Goku let it go or returned to base after the fight ended. Also if we say Goku's normal base has the power of SSG that can be sensed permanently, isn't that a bit weird since Goku uses Super Saiyan for "weak" people? Wouldn't Super Saiyan be above SSG and SSJB above even that? SSJ is only a multiplier after all, and it's power will be dependent upon it's base even if Goku has the power of a SSG that can be sensed. Also if we assume that SSG is a second base itself, then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan makes sense and that naming of the form is why I think SSG will return in the anime. (Plus Toei is greedy and we had a SSJB KKx10 so I wouldn't knock out a SSG return in the new outfits)

[HeroR]

I don't think that Beerus was going to kill Goku at all after the fun he had on Earth, and the only way I can explain Goku being sensed after he dropped out of SSG and keeping the power is what was stated (I think by Beerus): That Goku knew the feeling of what it meant to be a god (Or something along the lines of that) and held onto it. I don't really recall it being stated that he "absorbed" the God Ki. The power of SSG could have vanished the moment Goku let it go or returned to base after the fight ended. Also if we say Goku's normal base has the power of SSG that can be sensed permanently, isn't that a bit weird since Goku uses Super Saiyan for "weak" people? Wouldn't Super Saiyan be above SSG and SSJB above even that? SSJ is only a multiplier after all, and it's power will be dependent upon it's base even if Goku has the power of a SSG that can be sensed. Also if we assume that SSG is a second base itself, then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan makes sense and that naming of the form is why I think SSG will return in the anime. (Plus Toei is greedy and we had a SSJB KKx10 so I wouldn't knock out a SSG return in the new outfits)

In both the movie and Super, Beerus dropped a Death Ball on top of Goku's head and pushed unto the Earth. It would have killed Goku and destroyed the Earth if Goku didn't stop it, which Beerus didn't expect to happened given his expression. It was stated in both versions that Goku absorbed the power of godhood into his being, which is why his power didn't really drop after he lost his god form. Toryama also confirmed that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God in his interview, which is also why he said that Goku didn't need that transformation anymore.

And when have it been said that Super Saiyan is for weak people? Given what we have seen at the tournament, the power scale Goku and Vegeta to by is base form < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is literally their in-between power that they used when they don't want to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for whatever reason. Now we can argue if Super Saiyan is equal or stronger than Super Saiyan God meaning that Goku's base isn't quite as strong as a Super Saiyan God, but Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is literally just a Super Saiyan merged with god energy. Super Saiyan God being a second base that Goku has to transform to doesn't make sense since Goku's base form is confirmed stronger than Freeza after training and Toriyama stated that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God. So if it returns it would be a in-between form in this order, base > Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Although I don't know why Toei would go back to it since they didn't in their own retelling. And it wouldn't even be a different outfit for 'greed' since Goku is currently wearing his BOG outfit, the same he wore in the movie and retelling when he became a Super Saiyan God the first time.

Another important aspect was how the gains were always acknowledged. Even if a particular gain was a complete asspull, the characters reacted the way you'd expect from an asspull. Goku stands outside the recovery chamber in awed silence, amazed at this new power that's suddenly awoken inside him. Vegeta goes into arrogance overdrive when he recovers from Krillin's blast and thinks he's a super saiyan. Piccolo has his famous "I can do this!" moment after fusing with Nail.

These kinds of things helped the relation of power between characters feel real and substantial, unlike the wishy washy nebulous mess it's become now.

The only people who have confirmed to have gotten a major power up in Super are Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Trunks. Goku reacted with glee when he became a Super Saiyan God, Vegeta's reaction was more muted since he was still trying to surpass Goku, Gohan wanted to test his skill at the tournament after training with Piccolo, and Trunks couldn't be happy about his power gains because Black Goku was kicking his ass and killed his love ones. So there is no real comparison to Piccolo merging with Nail, unless you count Goku's happiness at getting godhood and Vegeta has mellow out so he doesn't have the fit of arrogance when he gets a lot of power.

[Chiki]

Uh, that is the exact opposite of a challenge. Vegeta specifically says he was happy that he was improving in the rosat because he wanted to test it against the warriors of U6. Goku also calls them all incredibly strong fighters, which goes against pretty much everything you're saying. Saiyans want to fight strong opponents, not pretend to fight strong opponents. Why do you think Vegeta said Semi-Cell was boring and not worth finishing off? Now Saiyans like to fight weak opponents? The amount of explanations that need to be made for this theory shows exactly why it isn't a very strong one.

Goku thinks anyone near his Buu arc strength is incredibly strong. He said Trunks was strong too and he could basically finger flick Trunks.

After seeing the U6 tournament, Beerus was impressed by the strength of mortals, and that's why he said SSJ2 Trunks was good, even though he's weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

And Vegeta DID get to test out his god level strength against one guy, Hit. It didn't work out so well.

The two base theory offers a way for Goku and Vegeta to be challenged while not using their full power. It's just like how Kenpachi in Bleach wears an eyepatch to limit his reiatsu (Bleach's version of ki, basically). In shonen they do this kind of self-limitations for challenges all the time.

Yet Magetta was giving a difficult fight and was able to take Vegeta's most powerful attacks. He had to transform to fight him even though he had a more powerful Base that didn't require a transformation at all. It's a convoluted explanation at best.

Saiyans like to be challenged like that, so there's no problem at all with this argument. They LIKE to get beaten up by stronger guys. Why do you think Goku is always excited to fight people stronger than him? They're masochists.

I think Super Saiyan Vegeta is way beyond Super Saiyan 3 level. That isn't the equivalent of saying he has God power. All we know is Base Vegeta became dramatically stronger after training with Whis and even stronger after training with Goku in the rosat.

Base Vegeta/SS Vegeta are either around SSG level or they're much nearer to their Buu arc levels. There is no middle ground. Toriyama said they absorbed their SSG powers so if they're stronger than the usual Base or Super Saiyan, they're using SSG.

The point is a visible power-up isn't required for them use all of their power in Base. They weren't even doing anything before they were called to Earth, so there's no powered-down a bit. They're either powered-up to fight or they're not. Vegeta wasn't, but still had enough power to easily decimate Ginyu. Meaning, there's no visual difference between Base Goku and Base Goku using some special God Power. The series never mentioned it anywhere at all.

The series also never mentioned Piccolo and Trunks's power ups. You can try to say it's bad writing but if you don't accept the two base theory, that's even WORSE writing.

[apex_pretador]

The series also never mentioned Piccolo and Trunks's power ups. You can try to say it's bad writing but if you don't accept the two base theory, that's even WORSE writing.

Yes it did.

Goku - "It is Unbelievable that you reached such a level of power on your own. I'm surprised." in 13 years despite himself reaching nearly kid buu level in 7 years on his own.

Beerus - "This boy is also quite impressive"despite calling EVERYTHING below SS3 goku BoG trash. He also called BoG SS3 goku & Rageta impressive.

Trunks - "They are amazing!! What? Goku is being pushed back? Unbelievable" despite being unable to push BASE vegeta back as gotenks.

[TheMikado]

The mechanisms to get Goku and Vegeta to that point though were pretty extensive. It involved both training at 100x gravity and several life threatening battles that they lost and had to recover from.
Basically the road to those gains didn't feel nearly as paved with BS.

Another important aspect was how the gains were always acknowledged. Even if a particular gain was a complete asspull, the characters reacted the way you'd expect from an asspull. Goku stands outside the recovery chamber in awed silence, amazed at this new power that's suddenly awoken inside him. Vegeta goes into arrogance overdrive when he recovers from Krillin's blast and thinks he's a super saiyan. Piccolo has his famous "I can do this!" moment after fusing with Nail.

These kinds of things helped the relation of power between characters feel real and substantial, unlike the wishy washy nebulous mess it's become now.

That's true, that little bit of exposition went a long way to feeling like characters had genuinely unlocked levels far beyond where they currently were at. I think one of the things in DBZ and by extension most shonen is the build up to showing power. There's not really much here, i suppose the build up to hit was DBZ like but the payoff was so polarizing it's like the fanbase doesnt know what to make of it.