Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Oh, I was unaware that you could win a debate when someone is still arguing against you.
Mjb1985 wrote:What makes you say that? Gohan witnessed Mecha Freeza vs Yardrar Goku.
I guess you have proof that Freeza fought at full power and that Gohan remembered that level perfectly?
And again, don't count out the possibility that he was just goading Freeza into entering a power up state where he's vulnerable. I figure there's a reaon that Trunks sucker punched Freeza while he was suppressed instead of letting him power up.
I always saw Future Trunks as being more cautious than arrogant
Of course. This is clearly shown when he opts not to bum rush the androids who killed Gohan, realizes that he can't beat Cell using Grade III, and when he thought they could beat Cell by ganging up on him, which totally would've worked. He also is obviously a take no risks kind of guy, which is why he doesn't toy with a guy who can blow up the planet and why he decides not to try to fight the androids who he just witnessed stomp Vegeta.
He arrogantly overestimatess himself all the time.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”
He seems to want them to both fight him at full power. I don't see why he would say that unless he was sure he could win. Why would he want them both to fight him if he couldn't handle it?
I'm pretty sure the whole point of Trunks was OMG this mysterious guy just easily beat Freeza and Cold. I don't see Toriyama hiding the fact Freeza and Cold were stronger then him.
This is Toriyama who leaves things at face value and not Miyazaki (Dark Souls)
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
He was still "somewhat" oblivious to how powerful the Androids were. He trained hard for 3 yrs and wanted to take his chance; nothing wrong with that. He didn't just rush into a battle with them. Gohan even told him he'd be great in a few months or something.
And he overestimated his Grade 3 form, as he didn't notice the speed decrease, but before that, he was trying to keep Vegeta from fighting the Androids and thought it'd be better to avoid them and come up with a plan. He attacked because Vegeta was in trouble--of course he's going to try to help. I don't think it's fair to assume he's entirely arrogant.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He was still "somewhat" oblivious to how powerful the Androids were. He trained hard for 3 yrs and wanted to take his chance; nothing wrong with that. He didn't just rush into a battle with them. Gohan even told him he'd be great in a few months or something.
And he overestimated his Grade 3 form, as he didn't notice the speed decrease, but before that, he was trying to keep Vegeta from fighting the Androids and thought it'd be better to avoid them and come up with a plan. He attacked because Vegeta was in trouble--of course he's going to try to help. I don't think it's fair to assume he's entirely arrogant.
He was pretty much Vegeta's foil. He would usually do the opposite of what Vegeta wants.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
He seems to want them to both fight him at full power. I don't see why he would say that unless he was sure he could win. Why would he want them both to fight him if he couldn't handle it?
I've said this a bajillion times. Two reasons:
1. He's an arrogant little shit. This is shown repeatedly. He thought he was way stronger than Gohan, he thought he was stronger than Vegeta, he thought he was stronger than Cell... and each time he was wrong.
2. He wanted to sucker punch Freeza while he's powering up. His "fight" with Cell showed he's not above that. It's actually a pretty good idea. And in fact sucker punching a suppressed Freeza is basically what he did, except he distracted Freeza himself rather than letting Freeza power up. I figure that there's a reason that he did that.
I'm pretty sure the whole point of Trunks was OMG this mysterious guy just easily beat Freeza and Cold. I don't see Toriyama hiding the fact Freeza and Cold were stronger then him.
I think he's stronger than them, just not leaps and bounds stronger. I think that an equally important part of that scene is that Trunks is pragmatic.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
By " Turlast wins " I meant he did a better hypothetical conversation than I did of Gohan explaining to Trunks how Freeza's power fared. Not that the debate on Trunks strength was over. People are entitled to their opinions and the situation is still a murky one hence the debate about it.
But yea I'm going to have to agree with Turlast here. Trunks is the ever cautious one. He seems to have a more realistic approach to things opposed to the Saiyans and their warrior mentality.
Trunks wanting Freeza to go full power and having no qualms with it to me suggests a high level of superiority. It's never refuted either and it has been an entire year where it's definitely possible for some massive gains to have occurred.
It generally only takes seconds to power up to full power so I don't think Trunks would count on that especially at the distance they were.
But yea I'm going to have to agree with Turlast here. Trunks is the ever cautious one. He seems to have a more realistic approach to things opposed to the Saiyans and their warrior mentality.
When has Trunks EVER been cautious? See the future androids, the present androids, and Cell (three times).
Trunks wanting Freeza to go full power and having no qualms with it to me suggests a high level of superiority. It's never refuted either and it has been an entire year where it's definitely possible for some massive gains to have occurred. It generally only takes seconds to power up to full power so I don't think Trunks would count on that especially at the distance they were.
I don't think that distance really matters with the speed these characters move.
A few seconds is still a good chance for a one hit kill. After all if powering up was so easy, then how did Goku have the time to have a conversation with King Kai while Freeza was powering up? Why did he even need to let Freeza power up?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Mjb1985 wrote:By " Turlast wins " I meant he did a better hypothetical conversation than I did of Gohan explaining to Trunks how Freeza's power fared. Not that the debate on Trunks strength was over. People are entitled to their opinions and the situation is still a murky one hence the debate about it.
But yea I'm going to have to agree with Turlast here. Trunks is the ever cautious one. He seems to have a more realistic approach to things opposed to the Saiyans and their warrior mentality.
Trunks wanting Freeza to go full power and having no qualms with it to me suggests a high level of superiority. It's never refuted either and it has been an entire year where it's definitely possible for some massive gains to have occurred.
It generally only takes seconds to power up to full power so I don't think Trunks would count on that especially at the distance they were.
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”
He pretty much told them both to attack at their best. I think he could have beaten them both if they teamed up. The reason why he surprise attacked was because he isn't going to be soft like Goku and give him chances to pull things off. After he stopped Freeza from destroying the planet he offed him before he did anything like that again.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
He pretty much told them both to attack at their best.
Do I have to say for the third (fourth?) time why I think he did that?
I think he could have beaten them both if they teamed up.
I don't.
The reason why he surprise attacked was because he isn't going to be soft like Goku and give him chances to pull things off.
Why? According to you he can effortlessly defeat them regardless.
After he stopped Freeza from destroying the planet he offed him before he did anything like that again.
1. Freeza tried to destroy the planet?
2. Trunks likes toying with those weaker than him- see the future versions of the androids and Cell, and King Cold. Yet he didn't do that with Freeza for some reason.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
1) 100% Mecha Freeza can probably defeat Goku ( on Namek imo )
2) 100% Mecha Freeza and King Cold can definitely defeat Goku
3) Trunks can defeat 100% Mecha Freeza and King Cold instantly
Did Gohan even witness Freeza power up to 100%? Goku sent Gohan away while Freeza was at 50%. Plus that kind of information seems really intimate. If Trunks knew about Freeza taking a long time to power up to 100%, shouldn't he know his power? His power is an easier nugget of information to get than the delayed power up info imo.
He pretty much told them both to attack at their best.
Do I have to say for the third (fourth?) time why I think he did that?
I think he could have beaten them both if they teamed up.
I don't.
The reason why he surprise attacked was because he isn't going to be soft like Goku and give him chances to pull things off.
Why? According to you he can effortlessly defeat them regardless.
After he stopped Freeza from destroying the planet he offed him before he did anything like that again.
1. Freeza tried to destroy the planet?
2. Trunks likes toying with those weaker than him- see the future versions of the androids and Cell, and King Cold. Yet he didn't do that with Freeza for some reason.
Sorry that destroying earth was anime. Anyways I don't see why he would tell them both to attack at full power. I think he can beat them both, not easily, but with some difficulty. I dooubt Toriyama wrote Trunks as weaker then Freeza and Cold, but portrays him as a mysterious guy who wipes them out instantly. Again this is Toriyama, he tells simple stories, he doesn't cryptically hide stuff. And what Draken said below.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sun May 19, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
He pretty much told them both to attack at their best.
Do I have to say for the third (fourth?) time why I think he did that?
I think he could have beaten them both if they teamed up.
I don't.
The reason why he surprise attacked was because he isn't going to be soft like Goku and give him chances to pull things off.
Why? According to you he can effortlessly defeat them regardless.
After he stopped Freeza from destroying the planet he offed him before he did anything like that again.
1. Freeza tried to destroy the planet?
2. Trunks likes toying with those weaker than him- see the future versions of the androids and Cell, and King Cold. Yet he didn't do that with Freeza for some reason.
Hmm? He beat down the Androids in a few seconds each, how is that toying? And ended Cell immediately with a blast. If that's toying the fuck you call Gohan against Cell?
1) Wanted to destroy the Androids before they were released
2) Wanted to wait for everyone to team up to fight the Androids
3) Wanted to gang up on Cell after it's power dropped from fighting Goku
Sorry that destroying earth was anime. Anyways I don't see why he would tell them both to attack at full power. I think he can beat them both, not easily, but with some difficulty. I dooubt Toriyama wrote Trunks as weaker then Freeza and Cold, but portrays him as a mysterious guy who wipes them out instantly. Again this is Toriyama, he tells simple stories, he doesn't cryptically hide stuff. And what Draken said below.
Again: I think he's stronger, but not leaps and bounds stronger.
Hmm? He beat down the Androids in a few seconds each, how is that toying? And ended Cell immediately with a blast. If that's toying the fuck you call Gohan against Cell?
I seem to remember him making sure that the androids felt helpless before he killed them.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Sorry that destroying earth was anime. Anyways I don't see why he would tell them both to attack at full power. I think he can beat them both, not easily, but with some difficulty. I dooubt Toriyama wrote Trunks as weaker then Freeza and Cold, but portrays him as a mysterious guy who wipes them out instantly. Again this is Toriyama, he tells simple stories, he doesn't cryptically hide stuff. And what Draken said below.
Again: I think he's stronger, but not leaps and bounds stronger.
Hmm? He beat down the Androids in a few seconds each, how is that toying? And ended Cell immediately with a blast. If that's toying the fuck you call Gohan against Cell?
I seem to remember him making sure that the androids felt helpless before he killed them.
Ah, I see, so you wouldn't let the pair of destructive killing machines feel the same pain he'd been feeling for his entire life after they killed his mentor, his father, and all his friends? He definitely likes toying with those weaker than him. I guess Gohan against Cell isn't toying but... I don't even know how else to describe it dafq #endsarcasm. He didn't toy with the Androids.
In the Anime, Trunks toys with them, but in the Manga, he straight-up obliterates them in a few pages.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:In the Anime, Trunks toys with them, but in the Manga, he straight-up obliterates them in a few pages.
Even in the anime he barely toys with them. Just swats away a few of 18's blasts, punches her a LOT in the face, then blasts her for Gohan. Knocks 17 down and blasts him. Barely lasts 3 minutes.
Last edited by Draken on Sun May 19, 2013 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jk. Haven't seen the Anime in a while. I just remember him beating up on her a bit before finishing her. I know he just blasts her in the Manga without punching.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
