The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Mjb1985]

Yea Trunks combined battle time against Freeza, King Cold , Future 17,18 , Cell is like under a minute combined. This boy don't play around.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since there's nothing proving Future Gohan or Trunks are as strong as you think or as weak as I think. Just implications and interpretations.

Speaking of low level Super Saiyans, new one. Which of these low level Super Saiyans could fifth form Cooler beat?

1. Theoretical Namek SS Vegeta.
2. Future Gohan
3. Namek Goku
4. Future Trunks (Mecha Arc)
5. Yardrat Goku

Keep in mind that the Daizenshuu places Movie 5 during the android arc training, and Movie 6 shows that as well (Goku references going to Yardrat) so Goku had three major boosts since Namek prior to fighting Cooler.

[Mjb1985]

Considering that the author had Trunks say he could easily defeat Freeza and then go on to do so with zero contradictions , I'm inclined to go with what the author is implying. But to each his own. I try to steer clear from over assuming or assuming characters are lying and generally take what they say at face value. AT is a simple man and his story is pretty simple, it's not like he's creating a mysterious manga. So I guess we have different interpretations on how to view the manga on a most basic level.


I generally view Movie 5's placement in an alternate timeline as a what if Goku had defeated Freeza on Namek and went back home with his family and friends. I generally like to place Movie 5 Goku on par with either Trunks or Yardrat Goku from the Trunks Saga.

Trunks and Goku can instantly handle Namek Goku and Freeza levels, so I try to fit Cooler somewhere in the wide gap between Freeza and Trunks.

[RandomGuy96]

But Movie 5 is officially post Yardrat. The Daizenshuu said it, Movie 6 said it.

[Mjb1985]

Yes I did see that you included that in your previous post. I don't know though. I'd probably have to check out what they say about IT in Movie 6 to have a better impression of what's going on.

I don't think M5 necessarily matches up with the actual story. Gohan and Kuririn seem to be weak and maybe even Piccolo is much weaker than normal. Officially Cooler's henchmen are very weak in comparison to what Piccolo should be, so in the end I find there to be conflicting ideas in terms of the guidebook's help. So in that case I generally try to go with my gut and check out some of the other factors going on.

[RandomGuy96]

I just assume the numbers for Cooler's squad are about as reliable as the number for Cooler from the same magazine in 2004. If you trust Shonen Jump putting Salza at 170,000 then why not accept the video game section putting Cooler at 470 million? Even with your theory, Cooler's men should all be in the millions.

If the Daizenshuu and more importantly the movies themselves say that it was post Yardrat, then its probably post Yardrat.

[Mjb1985]

So Cooler is 470,000,000 and the henchmen are in th 200,000 range right? So how strong do you have Piccolo?

I don't know, I would have to see Movie 6 again. I guess it's possible in this timeline Goku just didn't learn how to transform of free will yet but meh, the idea of the Trunks Saga already occurring in the M5 timeline isn't something I am going to agree with.

Isn't it a bit contradictory that you easily dismiss Trunks statement in the actual manga yet readily accept numbers and logic from outside of the manga?

[RandomGuy96]

So Cooler is 470,000,000 and the henchmen are in th 200,000 range right? So how strong do you have Piccolo?

I don't know, I would have to see Movie 6 again. I guess it's possible in this timeline Goku just didn't learn how to transform of free will yet but meh, the idea of the Trunks Saga already occurring in the M5 timeline isn't something I am going to agree with.

Isn't it a bit contradictory that you easily dismiss Trunks statement in the actual manga yet readily accept numbers and logic from outside of the manga?

My point is I don't think either of those numbers are applicable. I have Movie 5 Piccolo at 5 to 7 million-ish and Cooler at either 200 or 300 million. Depends on if the base saiyans ever surpassed Freeza. His henchmen I have at 2-4.5 million.

I don't really see what's wrong with placing Movie 5 in the main timeline. It seems to me that Goku was just doing the same thing he does in every movie by fighting and losing in base first.

Not really since I do think that Trunks can take Mecha Freeza, just with difficulty.

[Kaboom]

The numbers for Coola's Armored Squad and Coola himself are not from the same magazine. The former were given in an old issue of Weekly Jump when the movie was imminent or new (with only something like "immeasurable" listed for Coola in his transformed state), while the latter was given years later in an issue of V-Jump in relation to Dragon Ball Z 3 / Budokai 3.

[RandomGuy96]

My mistake. I thought they were the same magazine. But my point is that sometimes it's just easier to forget certain unreliable magazines for the sake of making sense.

[Mjb1985]

I try not to use any numbers for anything really. I just try to look at what's going on and not worry about the technical stuff too much.

Piccolo and Goku seem to fight the Armored Squadron on a similar level, heck even Cooler makes a note about Goku's power when it appears to be the same he used against the Henchmen. But then does that mean he got a huge Zenkai or was it not needed based on Cooler's statement?

Generally movies make direct power to power comparisons very messy, so I don't like to go crazy over them. I feel like it's a waste of time more or less. With the manga I feel I get a clean impression of where the powers are.

Like I said in terms of placement I would have to see the quote about IT again.

[RandomGuy96]

I'd think that the Daizenzhuu statement coupled with the fact that he knows IT at all would be enough.

[Mjb1985]

I don't know. Just the mere mention of IT doesn't mean the separate universes had to be identical. Maybe Goku went to Yardrat after he got back on Earth. It's a completely different universe so who knows?

[RandomGuy96]

Why does it need to be separate in the first place?

And I usually follow official material unless something contradicts it.

[Mjb1985]

Yea that's a good way of doing things. I haven't watched M5 and 6 in a while but I remember feeling strongly against it being post Yardrat. I would have to watch the movies again sometime. Unfortunately rewatching movies isn't really on my priority list right now so I guess I will have to move on from this.

But another example would be that I don't think Gotenks is Post Rosat in M12 either.

[The Monkey King]

This should be fun
pikkon (no weights) vs broly (movie 8 ) vs hatchiyack vs cell (full power perfect) vs bojack vs dabura

[Mjb1985]

Hatchyak = SPC
Broly 8 = Power Weighted Cell
Perfect Cell ( FP )
Bojack
Pikkon
Dabura

Would be the order I use from strongest to weakest.

( Waits patiently for RESSJ stuff to come out the woodwork

[RandomGuy96]

Pikkon > Dabura > Hatchiyak > FP Cell > Bojack > Movie 8 Broly

Anyway, Pikkon one-shotted Super Perfect Cell. He'd easily mop the floor with Movie 10 Broly too, and anyone else on this list would wipe the floor with Movie 8 Broly. No one here should be a speed bump to Pikkon.

If he's taken out of the equation, Dabura should solo. He's just flat-out stronger than anyone else on this list when you take into account what side of the "Was Gohan a SS2?" debate that the author-approved official material takes.

[Mjb1985]

Damn you have Pikkon strong.

Pikkon with his weights is weaker than Base Goku. So you must have some serious amplification for Blazing Shoot.

[dbzfan7]

Hatchyak = SPC
Broly 8 = Power Weighted Cell
Perfect Cell ( FP )
Bojack
Paikuhan
Dabura

Would be the order I use from strongest to weakest.

( Waits patiently for RESSJ stuff to come out the woodwork

Other then Power weighted Cell which I don't know if that is stronger then the power of FP Cell, this is what I got.

Damn you have Paikuhan strong.

Paikuhan with his weights is weaker than Base Goku. So you must have some serious amplification for Blazing Shoot.

Don't start the Paikuhan argument again. We had the whole thing a few pages ago. IMO Cell was off guard when Paikuhan got him like what Kamicollo said. Also the whole fight makes no sense anyways to me if I classify him as above SPC. Goku somehow stops Paikuhan from pushing him back when weighted Paikuhan can't be that much weaker then w/o weights Paikuhan. Paikuhan is also shown out of breath like Goku showing Goku is giving him a hard time. They are shown trading blows and blocking each other's punches which if I had him at SPC he would effortlessly dodge Goku's attacks and pound him into the ground. Goku also survives his Ultimate technique twice before dodging it which to me would be like saying Goku could survive SPC's Super Kamehameha that he used on Gohan twice. I like to also take the words of Goku when fighting supressed Cell when he said a mistake could cost him everything (and they are close in power) It's got to be a lot worse if the opponent is above SPC and hits you with his best attack twice.