Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[bleed0range]

I think there are a few key things to remember here...

1. Superman won because outside of Kryptonite or destroying the sun itself his power is pretty much invincible. He is as strong as he needs to be. In other words he has no real limitations.

2. You can't argue why they blow up the earth or why Goku started the fight because it's a "death battle" and they HAVE to fight each other and they HAVE to fight to the death, that part may betray certain characteristics they have but it's necessary to show the fight.

That being said... I feel like Goku could have used instant transmission to take Superman to another part (any part) of the universe where there wasn't a yellow sun (or the yellow sun's influence was so far away and weak) that he would have been able to destroy Superman there. They assume Goku would not have fully understood HOW the sun gave him his powers, although they do have him figure out it is the sun giving him power... but I think Goku, being the fighting genius he is, might discover that secret and the fight would have gone in a whole other direction then.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Hypothetically, if Goku thought to use instant transmission and move the fight somewhere else, where would he go? As pointed out here Goku needs a familiar ki signature to lock on to before he could use instant transmission which leads to two options Namek and King Kia's planet. Namek has two suns, which would make the fight so much worse in Goku's favor. That leaves King Kai's planet, but I'm not even sure there isn't a sun there. In any case, it's probably best to assume regardless of which planet he goes to, that the sun is Yellow I don't think Toriyama put that kind of thought into his universe.

[rereboy]

Arguing that Goku could have won if he took Superman some place where Goku would have the advantage is the same as admitting that Goku can't, straight up, beat Superman.

And Deathbattles are all about finding out who would, straight up, beat the opponent.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Arguing that Goku could have won if he took Superman some place where Goku would have the advantage is the same as admitting that Goku can't, straight up, beat Superman.

And Deathbattles are all about finding out who would, straight up, beat the opponent.

Given the data shown, yea I don't think Goku could win. However, at the same time(and this is admittedly personal bias) I don't think Goku would lose either...without the planet blowing up. Which is what happened in the fight. Goku's major weakness in this fight is not breathing in Space, for Superman it's a red sun, or no sun at all. Those are the only two ways I can see the scale tipping and since there isn't really an established place for Goku to tip the scale in his favor...Superman wins. Which honestly I can except.

[jjgp1112]

I'm not saying this would change the outcome of the fight, far from it, but Goku is not as weak as Death Battle made him out to be.

But Death Battle didn't make him out to be weak. It's just that Superman is so fucktardedly strong that even someone as powerful as Goku is no match for him.

[Ringworm128]

Comments on the YT uploads of the previews are disabled, I'm guessing the fans are throwing a fit.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm not saying this would change the outcome of the fight, far from it, but Goku is not as weak as Death Battle made him out to be.

But Death Battle didn't make him out to be weak. It's just that Superman is so fucktardedly strong that even someone as powerful as Goku is no match for him.

Seriously. Goku can both survive and output 34,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 MT. That's about 654,717 times the power it would take to destroy the Earth. The sun is only about 332,946 Earth masses. That means they calculated Goku able to blow up the Sun twice over. That means he can destroy a solar system and maybe even physically survive (what would certainly kill him is the lack of a breathable atmosphere after the fact). That's hardly "weak" and certainly not well below anything we see him do in any Dragon Ball media.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Perhaps I should have worded my statement differently, I'm not really calling Goku weak I'm just saying Goku should be able to put out more energy than that by technicalities. Their calculations put Goku's SSJ4 power level at about 2,109,600,000 which is bull crap since Namek SSJ4 Goku's level would be 12,000,000,000. I can see Cell having a power level of 2,000,000,000+ no problem.

[TonyTheTiger]

Vegeta at 18,000 is a credible threat to a planet, right? Well, they're basically saying that SSJ4 Goku is over 650,000 times stronger than that. Multiplying 18,000 by 654,717 and you get 11,784,906,000. That's effectively 12,000,000,000.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegeta at 18,000 is a credible threat to a planet, right? Well, they're basically saying that SSJ4 Goku is over 650,000 times stronger than that. Multiplying 18,000 by 654,717 and you get 11,784,906,000. That's effectively 12,000,000,000.

Thats still off. Namek Saga Goku's base level is 3,000,000 meaning SSJ4 Namek Goku has to be 12,000,000,000. Furthermore Goku's power level greatly increases past that as the years go by. Using the gravity formula, which is only effective for calculating Goku's physical abilities, will not give an accurate result for his durability and Ki output. I also believe SSJ4 Goku is by far more than just 650,000x stronger than Scouter Vegeta. You see they can't scale Goku's durability or Ki output because power levels are very much opinionated. I have SSJ3 Goku's Ki output greater than a Supernova by the end of DBZ but then that is just me. Also Tony, I have a question for you. How many megatons of energy would be required to destroy the Solar System in terms of the Sun to Pluto.

[Onikage725]

That's important to keep in mind. Spider-Man has a strict no-kill policy, but he took Batman apart (literally). The TMNT are a tight band of brothers, but they mercilessly slaughtered each other. Don't get too caught up in the half-assed narrative in the beginning. These are just what-if fights animated for geeky enjoyment.

[Mewzard]

So, Tony...you're saying Superman should have fought Gohan :p

They did explain that Superman holds himself back a lot. This portrayal of him felt pretty normal to me.

That's why I cited Rule of Cool. It showcased Goku's forms. From a "realistic" standpoint, Superman wouldn't indicate going all out, have trouble with SSJ, run from SSJ2 for a charge, be interrupted on such efforts, face SSJ3, unleash full power heat vision -gasp- gah! See my point tho? Each form, Goku appeared to have the upper hand. Superman appeared to need a charge, instead unleashes what their own research claims should drain him significantly. Yet he immediately matches SSJ4 blow for blow, even with the sun obscured by Goku's power up. It felt inconsistent for me, even knowing Superman.

But it was eye candy. And I don't disagree with the outcome, given that a sun-charged Kryptonian in space trumps a tired Saiyan in space.

That's just it, he wasn't having the troubles you thought he was. He initially struggled with SSJ because he didn't expect his foe to suddenly jump 50 times in power. He was still fighting at a lower level. Once he amped his game up, he was making SSJ Goku seem pathetic (casually walking up to where he'd be and back handing him aside, moving so fast, Goku couldn't follow, then doing the old car smash). Once Goku went SSJ2, Superman was still winning, as he was less surprised, and the jump wasn't as big. He casually heat visioned his ki blasts away, and smacked him aside with a street light.

It was only after Goku whipped out his magic stick that Supes got damaged back, and after his comments about it being a game that Supes left. But, he wasn't going for a Sun recharge, he was flying around the planet. Perhaps to gather up speed to do an Infinite Mass Punch or something like that. He had no way of knowing Goku could teleport, but quickly took care of Goku's Power Pole. He went SSJ3, but by then, Supes expected the power jump, and matched it. The Solar Flare was a bad idea, as Supes has gone very close to the Sun in his days. Given the stats, he wouldn't have to do full powered Heat Vision to win, but it makes for a much more fun match. Then, come SSJ4, Supes is fully prepared to go full on with him, though he went through a lot of energy over the course of the fight (and the clouds would mean lessened restored energy compared to a sunny day, which is not good against a high level foe considering how much energy he burned).

Goku busting out the Kaio-Ken during his SSJ4 Kamehameha? Didn't see that coming, but a nice nod to the Otherworld Tournament. Given he was drained for a bit, he probably couldn't have upped much more due to needing to absorb more energy. But, knocking him into the Sun? Oooh, bad move Goku. Fighting a sun-dipped Superman is a far more deadly fight. But, they were nice enough to let Goku get in a good blow with the Dragon Fist after showing off the absorbing Spirit Bomb. Unfortunately for Goku, Superman hits a lot harder than he does, and that was from a more powerful than normal Supes. And the Sun helps Supes to a recovery...though I imagine after the Death Battle he feels pretty shitty about it...at least until Goku contacts him with the help of King Kai, and tells him about the Dragon Balls on Namek.

But, yeah, the fight was dramatized for the sake of entertainment. Stats wise...it wouldn't have been so close.

That said, they would never normally fight...at least, not on Earth, if Supes had to. Friendly spar in space with Goku set up for air? Maybe. Plus, imagine them fighting together? Superman under a Blue Star, using his Superman Vision (which he only gets under a Blue Star) to give Goku the powers of a Kryptonian temporarily...would make alien menaces think twice before attacking them.

[Metrite]

I can't help but laugh whenever I see such crazy comparisons between such vastly different fictional characters and stories as DB and DC. I especially laugh my ass off any time folks attempt to apply real world physics and such. In the end, it always comes down to whatever the writers decide to do. And they can make any choice they want with any excuses they want as to why such a decision is "consistent" with the other stories. No matter the end choice, it had to be selective and nitpicky in the end since neither series is perfectly consistent and both are especially guilty of not following the laws of the real world.

I've actually seen some folks do much, much deeper analysis of Goku and Superman than they did. In fact, I'm rather disappointed by how shallow this was in comparison.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I can't help but laugh whenever I see such crazy comparisons between such vastly different fictional characters and stories as DB and DC. I especially laugh my ass off any time folks attempt to apply real world physics and such. In the end, it always comes down to whatever the writers decide to do. And they can make any choice they want with any excuses they want as to why such a decision is "consistent" with the other stories. No matter the end choice, it had to be selective and nitpicky in the end since neither series is perfectly consistent and both are especially guilty of not following the laws of the real world.

I've actually seen some folks do much, much deeper analysis of Goku and Superman than they did. In fact, I'm rather disappointed by how shallow this was in comparison.

To be fair DBZ is fairly consistent with its scaling. I can't really say the same for Superman since he is as strong as he needs to be but you can apply physics to him as well.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

It was:
Boomstick: "And the destructo Disc which he totally stole from Krillin..."

[Gonstead]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

It was:
Boomstick: "And the destructo Disc which he totally stole from Krillin..."

Still would have been nice to see him use it and Superman's response.

Something I want to know: Why did Taiyoken fail?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

It was:
Boomstick: "And the destructo Disc which he totally stole from Krillin..."

Still would have been nice to see him use it and Superman's response.

Something I want to know: Why did Taiyoken fail?

Probably has something to do with the fact that he can see inside the sun which is bright as hell.

[Saiga]

Uh, yeah... why didn't he try the Kienzan if they were supposed to use everything?

[Metrite]

To be fair DBZ is fairly consistent with its scaling.

I wouldn't say DB is all that consistent, either. Look hard and you'll find plenty of things that don't quite add up. I've always found that thing with Goku struggling with forty tons to be a prime example. Back in the early days of DB, Taopaipai was strong enough to pick up a large stone pillar and throw it over 1,000 miles, yet Goku from the Buu saga struggles with a measly forty tons? That doesn't quite add up to me. So I am given the tough choice of either disregarding the forty tons scene and going with what I'd expect based on other evidence, or give it precedence and disregard all else... ooooor, I could take the route many fans do and create a crazy theory to try and make everything make sense! For example, I could say a "ton" in the other world is different than on Earth. Just like if I asked for a calorie, you would need to know which one I mean based on the context or by asking; it could either be a heat calorie or a food calorie which are measures of energy using the same term but quite different in amount. Likewise, a ton in the afterlife is the equivalent to over a thousand tons on Earth. There, now with my brand new baseless theory it all makes sense!