Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Edit: Nevermind

[Muffin Man]

So wait. Didn't Trunks say Black was as strong as SSj3 Goku in the last episode? But now Black is weaker than SSj2 Goku when Goku "isn't using as much power as he did while sparring"?

[dbzfan7]

So wait. Didn't Trunks say Black was as strong as SSj3 Goku in the last episode? But now Black is weaker than SSj2 Goku when Goku "isn't using as much power as he did while sparring"?

Welcome to Super. It'll make less and less sense, and change the rules all the damn time. I wouldn't stick around for the cancer though. The thread is gonna turn to shit soon as it always does after an episode. It starts off calm like this, and then it goes straight to hell.

[Bullza]

Oh I read it wrong, Goku was being a slow starter against Black not Trunks.

[TheMikado]

Ok so confused... We see that Black and Goku were holding back but Trunks still states that Black was A little stronger than before which would mean stronger than SSJ3 Goku right? Like how else would he know he was stronger than before versus holding back if he didn't show it? And then if that's the case why is Black getting beaten so bad by just SSJ Goku?

[HeroR]

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

Actually, Vegeta and Goku confirmed that Black Goku was holding back the entire time, and they don't really know how strong he is.

So wait. Didn't Trunks say Black was as strong as SSj3 Goku in the last episode? But now Black is weaker than SSj2 Goku when Goku "isn't using as much power as he did while sparring"?

Both Black Goku and Goku were holding back as noted by Vegeta. From the sound of it, Black Goku matches his power to who he is fighting instead of just overwhelming since he gets stronger from fighting and being hurt. Just as Goku powered up, so did Black Goku.

[TheMikado]

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

Actually, Vegeta and Goku confirmed that Black Goku was holding back the entire time, and they don't really know how strong he is.

No Trunks specifically said he was a little stronger than last time when Vegera asked. How he could tell that if he was holding back to SSJ2 levels idk.

[HeroR]

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

Actually, Vegeta and Goku confirmed that Black Goku was holding back the entire time, and they don't really know how strong he is.

No Trunks specifically said he was a little stronger than last time when Vegera asked. How he could tell that if he was holding back to SSJ2 levels idk.

Trunks could feel Black getting stronger from earlier, yet he was still holding back his full power. Meaning, without raising his power, he was getting stronger from fighting Goku. Meaning, Black Goku could be purposely matching his strength to Goku to make their match even and get stronger off of it, much like how base form Trunks could deflect Black Goku's hits and why Trunks didn't die when he fought Black Goku despite matching Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Although, was Goku a Super Saiyan 2 since it didn't call him that in the episode, just a Super Saiyan.

[LightBing]

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

[dbzfan7]

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Goku was just holding back a whole lot in SSJ2 and went SSJ3 just to show off that he could, but kept it's power restricted to just a little above SSJ2.....what does that sound stupid?

[HeroR]

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Did you read the episode? Both Black Goku and Goku were holding back a lot of their power since we know Black Goku is at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Black Goku was holding back probably to match Goku's power, and Goku was holding back because he was trying to get Black Goku to use more of his power. Also, what Trunks most likely means is that Black Goku's power was growing from where he was fighting Goku, not that he was powering up and moving more towards his maximum power.

[Cabba]

The suppressed ki theory you mention is identical to the two base theory, the only difference is that they have different titles.

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, they both fit the same narrative, I'm just trying to explain it, in terms of suppressing. Both get the same results with the key difference that he only has one form that he can suppress if he so desires. I dont assume he has God ki or mixed ki in this form, maybe he just learned to handle ki differently his power raised to another realm and vegeta was later taught this by whis (provided that vegeta already reached a level plateau to be able to learn this) something goku learned on the spot, this is something we got to come up with to make sense of what happened on some fights, i just dont think is ever gonna get acknowledged on the show as a thing, they are just gonna ignore giving any explanation

^ so where do you fit SSJ2 and SSJ3 into that mix?

Fan service/filler, akira already said they are irrelevant
I think they were there just for show, they weren't supposed to be used seriously in a battle again at least not by goku and vegeta, thats why it doesn't make sense

Meaning that his Base and SS forms are Cell arc-Buu arc level

This doesnt make sense, are completely discarding Battle Of Gods and ROF?
SS3 goku could not keep up with beerus he was bested with two light strokes, Goku even went as far as saying that even fused with Vegeta he would not be able to hold a fight
After the SSG(red) transformation is over, goku is still able to keep up with beerus in his base form and SS form

Cabba being god level. Makes no sense.

why not?

Vegeta didn't reach anywhere near god level between the Cell games and the Buu arc. That was 7 years. Wrong.

What about the insane progress he had in 3 years time that allowed him to go from mere SS2 level to surpass a perfected Goku SS3 form and ultimate gohan. A character will progress as much as the plot demands it. I dont see many people nitpicking over the fact Gohan deteriorated slightly over 7 years then with a bonus card got at insane power boost in 24hs thanks to the elders ritual, that was a plot requirement just like anything else.

^ so what you're saying is that power levels and writing and have always been shit, it's just been incredibly obvious now. Although I will say the power gains in DBZ were much more hard won than Super's.

What i think they are saying is that how much a character grows is up to the plot requirements its always been like that on Z, how much you like the writing is subjective, I personally love DBS and the whole universe its fit in, my only pet peeve with it is the low budget is getting for animation and such, people should avoid this asinine habit of putting hard limits on characters specially Saiyans. I get why its happened Z ended so its natural for people to assume well thats it thats the limit. But if you ever followed closely the series you would now or at least be open to the idea that there are no limits to how much a character like Goku or vegeta could grow or any of the hybrids for that matter

I would also like to see piccolo return to the spotlight with a massive power boost

[LightBing]

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Goku was just holding back a whole lot in SSJ2 and went SSJ3 just to show off that he could, but kept it's power restricted to just a little above SSJ2.....what does that sound stupid?

I'm gonna on a limb and say, they forgot from one episode to the other(maybe different writer). Because honestly, a contrived hold back SSJ3 is ridiculous. Besides making children confused.
I remember when I was a kid, thinking how Gohan got so strong in base he was even stronger than SSJ3. Of course he was just in Ultimate mode, I just didn't understood it at the time.
Seriously 3 is bigger than 2.

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Did you read the episode? Both Black Goku and Goku were holding back a lot of their power since we know Black Goku is at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Black Goku was holding back probably to match Goku's power, and Goku was holding back because he was trying to get Black Goku to use more of his power. Also, what Trunks most likely means is that Black Goku's power was growing from where he was fighting Goku, not that he was powering up and moving more towards his maximum power.

Read what I wrote again, the power comparison is literally: Black when he fought Trunks before, to Black who fought Goku.
He's saying SSJ2 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[HeroR]

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Goku was just holding back a whole lot in SSJ2 and went SSJ3 just to show off that he could, but kept it's power restricted to just a little above SSJ2.....what does that sound stupid?

I'm gonna on a limb and say, they forgot from one episode to the other(maybe different writer). Because honestly, a contrived hold back SSJ3 is ridiculous. Besides making children confused.
I remember when I was a kid, thinking how Gohan got so strong in base he was even stronger than SSJ3. Of course he was just in Ultimate mode, I just didn't understood it at the time.
Seriously 3 is bigger than 2.

It appears we got another contradiction.

Last episode Trunks said, Black was equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This episode Trunks says Black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. So SSJ2>SSJ3 now? Or are people gonna say Goku is using 2% of God ki in one form to justify this?

Did you read the episode? Both Black Goku and Goku were holding back a lot of their power since we know Black Goku is at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Black Goku was holding back probably to match Goku's power, and Goku was holding back because he was trying to get Black Goku to use more of his power. Also, what Trunks most likely means is that Black Goku's power was growing from where he was fighting Goku, not that he was powering up and moving more towards his maximum power.

Read what I wrote again, the power comparison is literally: Black when he fought Trunks before, to Black who fought Goku.
He's saying SSJ2 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

I read it as Trunks when he last fought Black, meaning when Black kicked Super Saiyan Trunks' butt, compared to how he's fighting now. Meaning that Black's power were growing from before.

Also, the last several episodes have been written by the same person, the Pokemon guy I believe. So I doubt he just forgot what he wrote the episode before.

[TheMikado]

^ I and others assumed it was the other comparison the other poster explained. I dint understand how the writing can be this muddy where two people can watch the same thing and get two completely different interpretations of it.

[Cabba]

Basically, you expanded on my point. I don't think we are disagreeing entirely. By the way, I don't understand why you separated points 1 and 2, they practically describe the same fact.

Because a character being introduced with a certain impressive level of power for the time does not determine how much it will grow and how fast, does not determine its potential by rule either. Heroes and foes alike

For what's being debated, the story showed half-blooded Saiyans gained power much faster than pure-blooded ones.

I already described you with examples to spare why this is false assumption basically my whole previous post is in discordance with this, if you still believe this to be true please provide case examples

The characters couldn't conceive Super Saiyans brats, giving how difficult it was to achieve the transformation, unless there was a prodigious thing happening there.

I already gave you an example that does not fit this narrative, Future Trunks and Trunks. Why did Trunks turned SS faster than future Trunks? Because of plot requirement, Majin Saga makes traditional SS1 power insignificant by comparison, so it was needed thing for relevancy imo

I believe the Daizenshuu books had a word on it, citing tailless Saiyans as having super potential, no?

I believe there was Q&A with Akira where the subject was touched and he just allude to the fact that on hybrids tails would jump generations and made no correlation with potential.

Also, there is no denying that the plot doesn't require Gohan, Kid Trunks or Goten to be strong anymore, so that must fill your (first or second?) point, because Goku and Vegeta are the top dogs now. But for the sake of narrative, the story gave us a proper explanation to why it was conceivable for Gohan with zero amount of training to be stronger than Goku when Raditz attacked for example.

You also got to keep in mind that for a long period of time one of those plot requirements was for Gohan to be the hero so him being born to relevancy makes sense
Beside I already conceded that the one true advantage they have is being born with higher base power, thats not the end all be all though
Goku was considered the lowest of low by how much power he had when born yet he is the saiyan to have shown the most promise, i dont think anybody will try to argue Nappa had more potential than goku or any of the Ginyu members for that matter.

Also you still had not covered why Goten/Trunks stronger than Gohan (another hybrid) at relative age other than plot. I just want to point this out so you can see from my point of view how this seems to me like moving the goal post. "well these hybrids are better because they have not tail or they are even a specialer breed of hybrids"

In another case, I need Future Trunks to be very strong in order to feel that Black is a fearsome foe. Otherwise, the new villain would look like a pushover to me

I dont understand why Trunks getting stronger has to depend on it, Trunks has the same potential as any of the saiyan heroes. Trunks can get as strong as it needs be i dont see why this has to be justified
Just like Goku absorbing the God transformation into himself was nothing sort of a genius beerus alluded to that same fact or whis or beerus commenting on their potential.

Also Trunk did allude to Black power growing slowly, so he could have been just suppressing all this time against trunks to make chase last longer and his suffering with it

[Muffin Man]

Actually, Vegeta and Goku confirmed that Black Goku was holding back the entire time, and they don't really know how strong he is.

No Trunks specifically said he was a little stronger than last time when Vegera asked. How he could tell that if he was holding back to SSJ2 levels idk.

Trunks could feel Black getting stronger from earlier, yet he was still holding back his full power. Meaning, without raising his power, he was getting stronger from fighting Goku. Meaning, Black Goku could be purposely matching his strength to Goku to make their match even and get stronger off of it, much like how base form Trunks could deflect Black Goku's hits and why Trunks didn't die when he fought Black Goku despite matching Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Although, was Goku a Super Saiyan 2 since it didn't call him that in the episode, just a Super Saiyan.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would Trunks assume that Black is getting stronger from fighting Goku rather than holding back less of the power that Trunks already knew he had because he previously felt him when he was as strong as SSj3 Goku"?

[HeroR]

^ I and others assumed it was the other comparison the other poster explained. I dint understand how the writing can be this muddy where two people can watch the same thing and get two completely different interpretations of it.

It happens all the time in fiction. Go to any discussion board and you see people interpreting things differently all the time, especially when you have a language barrier like in this case.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would Trunks assume that Black is getting stronger from fighting Goku rather than holding back less of the power that Trunks already knew he had because he previously felt him when he was as strong as SSj3 Goku"?

Because of all cases of people powering up, they general don't do it gradually. The only exception was Perfect Cell when he was testing himself against Vegeta and was gradually making himself stronger. In this case, however, Krillin knew Cell was toying with Vegeta since he got a sense of his true power. Trunks got kicked around like a foot ball for over a year by Black and would know what Black's power would feel like when he's holding power vs. just gradually releasing more of his energy. Like he knew Goku was holding back, but he specifically said that Black Goku was getting stronger, not releasing more energy.

[ZombieVito]

A suppressed SSJ3 Goku is nothing new. He did the same thing with Fat Boo.

I see no issue with that. In fact the only one for this episode is the fact that Goku visibly uses SSJ2 but they call it just Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

I've had a look at the fight now and it is a bit confusing because Trunks said Black was on par or stronger than SSJ3 Goku and then he said Black was a little stronger in this fight so Black should be more than a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

But we see that SSJ2 Goku is about equal with Black...

It's odd because if Black was a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks put up a much better fight against Black?

It wouldn't seem to make sense to say that SSJ3 was suppressed last episode and SSJ2 was at full power in this episode and that's why SSJ2 > SSJ3 because Trunks commented on him not using as much power as when he was a SSJ3.