DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That's what I believe. He is sick, so it's not just his battle power that has fallen, everything (strength, speed, etc) has fallen. Which is why he is sloppy.
But if he is fighting at full power while not actually being at full power, that can only mean he's fighting at full capacity in his current state. What else could full power mean? Herms even elaborates:
Chapter: 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9. Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...” Gohan: “Y-yes…” Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...” Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!” Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…” Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.
I'm not saying he wasn't fighting at his full capacity in his current state. What I'm saying is that his current state in general was shit, not just his battle power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I'm getting REALLY sick of this....but here it is. Another revised list Here's Cell Arc, will do Buu Arc soon. I jacked up everyone's power a bit and fit them with the power gaps accordingly. Feedback is appreciated!
Darkron2151 wrote:I'm getting REALLY sick of this....but here it is. Another revised list Here's Cell Arc, will do Buu Arc soon. I jacked up everyone's power a bit and fit them with the power gaps accordingly. Feedback is appreciated!
Why do you change your lists so much? Your initial lists were fine.
No need to change the lists so much IMO.
A new type of list. In this list, the "BIG BAD" will have power level of 120 million. So, this starts from freeza saga.
(note : k = 1000, M = million)
Freeza saga:
Spoiler:
Goku - 90,000
Ginyu - 120,000
Krillin - 1800, potential unlock - 15,000 , max - 90,000
Gohan - 1400, potential unlock - 14,000 , max - 220,000, enraged - 1,600,000
Piccolo - 96,000 , fused - 1,200,000
Nail - 42,000
Ginyu force - 39,600
Vegeta - 24,000 , zenkai - 30,000 , zenkai - 360,000 , zenkai - 1,800,000
Dodoria - 20,000
Zarbon - 22,600 , monster - 31,000
Goku - 2,600,000 , KK x20 - 52,000,000 , SS - 80,000,000 & increasing , post transformation base - 4 million
Freeza (healthy) - 530,000 , 2nd - 1 million , 3rd - 1.8 million , 4th - 3 million , 50% - 60 million , 100% - 120 million
Freeza (actual) - 530,000 , 2nd - 1,000,000 , 3rd - 1,600,000 , 4th - 2,580,000 , 50% - 56,000,000 , post spirit bomb - 36,000,000 , 100% - 82,000,000 , post stamina drain - 70,000,000 & decreasing
Cell saga:
Spoiler:
Piccolo - 600,000
Vegeta - 560,000
Mecha freeza (suppressed) - 5,000,000
King cold - 5,000,000
Trunks - 500,000 , SS - 10,000,000
Goku - 600,000 , SS - 12,000,000
______________________post training_____________________
Yamcha - 90,000
Tien - 108,000
Krillin - 120,000
Gohan - 800,000
#19 - 2,000,000 (vs vegeta) - 8,000,000 (post absorption)
#20 - 7,000,000 , 8,000,000 (piccolo's energy absorbed)
Goku - 805,000 ,SS - 16,100,000 (If healthy)
Trunks - 750,000 (base) , SS - 15,000,000
Vegeta - 800,000 (base), SS - 16,000,000 , energy drained - 10,000,000, tired - 8,000,000
# 16 - 26 M
# 17 - 20 M
# 18 - 18 M
Piccolo - 10 M (FP), 21 M (fused w/ god) , 19 M (tired)
Cell - 17 M (initial), 26 M (post absorption) , 40 M (semi perfect) 55 M (perfect) , 72 M (bulky)
Super Vegeta - 46 M
Super trunks - 45 M , bulky - 68 M
________________________Cell Games_______________________
Satan - 16
Vegeta - 70 M
Trunks - 69 M
Piccolo - 60 M
Goku - 2 M , SS - 50 M (at korin) , SS FP - 80 M, tired - 40 M
Gohan - 2.2 M , SS - 88 M , SS2 - 176 M , weakened - 132 M , enraged - 160 M
Cell Jrs - 70 M
Perfect cell - 81 M (vs goku), 90 M (vs gohan) , 120 M (FP) , 160 M (super perfect)
Buu saga:
Spoiler:
Gohan - 43 M (SS2)
Goku - 28 M (SS) 56 M (SS2), 112 M (SS3)
Dabura - 43 M
Yakon - 5,000,000
Piccolo - 30 M
Kaioshin - 35 M, kibitoshin - 70 M
Vegeta - 25 M (SS) , 50 M (SS2) , 56 M (majin)
Fat buu - 60 M (calm), 86 M (FP) , 90 M (angry/post split)
Bad buu - 100 M
Super buu - 190 M, piccolo - 200 M, Gotenks - 270 M , gohan - 276 M
Gotenks (pre) - 44 M (base) , 84 M (SS)
Gotenks (post) - 60 M (base) , 100 M (SS) , 200 M (SS3)
Gohan - 60 M (SS2 Post training) , 216 M (ultimate)
Super Vegetto - 2,000,000,000
SS3 goku (post revival) - 116 M
Kid buu - 120,000,000
Mr. buu - 100,000,000
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not saying he wasn't fighting at his full capacity in his current state. What I'm saying is that his current state in general was shit, not just his battle power.
So his current state would have a battle power below Piccolo's. We're agreeing on that?
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not saying he wasn't fighting at his full capacity in his current state. What I'm saying is that his current state in general was shit, not just his battle power.
So his current state would have a battle power below Piccolo's. We're agreeing on that?
Goku's battle power may be greater, but I believe he would lose against Piccolo in a fight.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not saying he wasn't fighting at his full capacity in his current state. What I'm saying is that his current state in general was shit, not just his battle power.
So his current state would have a battle power below Piccolo's. We're agreeing on that?
Goku's battle power may be greater, but I believe he would lose against Piccolo in a fight.
So if Goku has a battle power higher than Piccolo's, but blows weaker than Piccolo's, he's not fighting at full power, because his blows could be stronger.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:So if Goku has a battle power but weaker blows, he's not fighting at full power like Piccolo says.
He is fighting at full power, meaning as best as he can, but he is also sloppy because he can't perform as well as he would if he was healthy.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
It's probably better to think of Goku's performance against Nineteen as "full effort" rather than "full power." He's doing the best he can, and you can tell that from watching him. But in terms of power output it's not what he should normally be capable of.
Kaboom wrote:It's probably better to think of Goku's performance against Nineteen as "full effort" rather than "full power." He's doing the best he can, and you can tell that from watching him. But in terms of power output it's not what he should normally be capable of.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Also, Piccolo isn't a punching machine, he can only sense ki and use his eyes. It's impossible for him to measure Goku's punches, he can only sense Goku's ki & watch his performance. His ki was at its max, but not as high as it should be, and his performance was sloppy, not as good as it should be. Giving sick Goku a battle power number is pointless IMO.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Perhaps we interpret it differently then. The way I interpret is that while Goku is not outputting as much Ki as he normally would, he is still able to go all out in the lowered level that he is at. For example:
Healthy Goku
-Full Power (Ki): 10
-Power Output (Ki): 10
-Striking Power: 10
Sick Goku
-Full Power (Ki): 10 (not accessible because he is sick)
-Power Output (Ki): 6
-Striking Power: 6
So Goku's Ki should be far greater like Piccolo says, but he's also able to go all out in his current sick state. Unless I'm misinterpreting your post, is that not what you're saying, Kaboom?
I don't see it like that, so let's just agree to disagree I guess.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That's what I believe. He is sick, so it's not just his battle power that has fallen, everything (strength, speed, etc) has fallen. Which is why he is sloppy.
But if he is fighting at full power while not actually being at full power, that can only mean he's fighting at full capacity in his current state. What else could full power mean? Herms even elaborates:
Chapter: 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9. Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...” Gohan: “Y-yes…” Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...” Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!” Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…” Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.
This only corroborate my theory that Goku was supressed initially against #19... and then increased his power instantly.
Of course it does... this proves the Saiyans could supress their powers before the Rosat.
No it doesn't. Piccolo says Goku is putting out close to his full power, but his Ki should be far more stupendous. That has nothing to do with voluntarily suppressing Super Saiyan.
Here's Cell Arc, will do Buu Arc soon. I jacked up everyone's power a bit and fit them with the power gaps accordingly. Feedback is appreciated!
