The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Mjb1985]

I think there is a difference between helpless and stamina being the determining factor of the fight. I doubt 17 would say that Kamiccolo was helpless against him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta was just that much weaker than #18. I know Piccolo comments on the stamina being an issue, but I doubt his stamina mattered when she demonstrated the ability to easily break his arm. As tough as Vegeta is shown to be, that could only mean there's a considerable enough difference in their powers.

[Mjb1985]

18 doesn't seem to use hardly any effort at all against Vegeta. She effortlessly defeats him.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta was just that much weaker than #18. I know Piccolo comments on the stamina being an issue, but I doubt his stamina mattered when she demonstrated the ability to easily break his arm. As tough as Vegeta is shown to be, that could only mean there's a considerable enough difference in their powers.

Pretty much what I think. Trunks also gets downed in one hit which Krillin and Piccolo make a big deal out of.

[Mjb1985]

I guess it's mind boggling to them. I don't know why though, 17 snuck up behind Trunks and used a double axe handle type of strike to hit him from behind off guard. Trunks was downed for a little but never fell out of Super Saiyan and was right back up ready to fight seconds later.

I wouldn't really call that a feat, but the fact that it's treated like one by the author and characters makes me feel inclined to accept it as one.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta was just that much weaker than #18. I know Piccolo comments on the stamina being an issue, but I doubt his stamina mattered when she demonstrated the ability to easily break his arm. As tough as Vegeta is shown to be, that could only mean there's a considerable enough difference in their powers.

Yeah, but that was after his strength started to fail.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I doubt it really mattered. He couldn't do any damage to her. His stamina was going down slowly, but I don't think he would've resisted her kick any better if it was done earlier. It came down to Vegeta being vastly outmatched in both power and stamina.

[Rocketman]

If he was "vastly" outmatched, then Piccolo and the humans could not have tipped the balance like 17 says.

[Draken]

If he was "vastly" outmatched, then Piccolo and the humans could not have tipped the balance like 17 says.

If he was "helpless", then having Piccolo and the humans help him wouldn't have helped him like 18 says.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'd say #17 was merely inaccurate in his assessment on Trunks, Piccolo and the humans. Probably just wanted a reason to fight or see #16 in action. He also had no idea how strong any of them were, so all he could do is guess how strong they were. Since #18 was able to shatter Trunks's sword with no difficulty whatsoever, I highly doubt Piccolo and guys way weaker than him would do anything worthwhile.

Besides, Vegeta himself acknowledges how useless they are when it comes to fighting #18:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So with that, I'd say they wouldn't be much help in battle.

[Mjb1985]

Well played Turlast.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'd say #17 was merely inaccurate in his assessment on Trunks, Piccolo and the humans. Probably just wanted a reason to fight or see #16 in action. He also had no idea how strong any of them were, so all he could do is guess how strong they were. Since #18 was able to shatter Trunks's sword with no difficulty whatsoever, I highly doubt Piccolo and guys way weaker than him would do anything worthwhile.

Besides, Vegeta himself acknowledges how useless they are when it comes to fighting #18:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So with that, I'd say they wouldn't be much help in battle.

To be fair, Vegeta had no idea how strong the Androids were at this point either, so it could have been a typical "I'm Vegeta and I'm better than you" comment.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Maybe, but Vegeta has a good enough grasp of #18's power after fighting her for a bit. And since he called out Trunks on the energy blast he used earlier, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume Vegeta's pretty accurate in what he says.

[Kamiccolo9]

Maybe, but Vegeta has a good enough grasp of #18's power after fighting her for a bit. And since he called out Trunks on the energy blast he used earlier, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume Vegeta's pretty accurate in what he says.

I agree, but the possibility is there.

I have Vegeta being about 90% of 18 when he's at full strength. Enough to put up a fight, but can be dispatched once 18 decides to get serious. Also, remember that this is Vegeta in his power-mad early Android Arc phase. I would easily believe that his extreme arrogance and unstable mindset would have affected his ability to fight. And to top it all off, he is being influenced by the negative effects of the SSJ state, including stamina drain and amplifying his anger, and I can see him being somewhat sloppy in this fight. He's the warrior of legend, and she's a teenage girl; the fact that he's even having to put forth effort at all would enrage him, making him lose composure. Especially later on, once he realized that 18 would never tire or feel pain.

[Rocketman]

17 knows the following:

18's strength
A rough estimate of Vegeta's strength
A 'bare minimum' estimate of how strong Piccolo and the humans are from Gero's calculations

Vegeta knows the following:

His own strength (overinflated)
A rough estimate of 18's strength
How strong Piccolo and the humans are (underinflated)

Neither side can sense the other.

I favor 17's assessment for two reasons. One, he knows exactly how strong 18 is. Two, Vegeta has firmly climbed up his own ass over becoming the superest Super Saiyan evers.

[RandomGuy96]

17 knows the following:

18's strength
A rough estimate of Vegeta's strength
A 'bare minimum' estimate of how strong Piccolo and the humans are from Gero's calculations

Vegeta knows the following:

His own strength (overinflated)
A rough estimate of 18's strength
How strong Piccolo and the humans are (underinflated)

Neither side can sense the other.

I favor 17's assessment for two reasons. One, he knows exactly how strong 18 is. Two, Vegeta has firmly climbed up his own ass over becoming the superest Super Saiyan evers.

I agree with this.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What can Piccolo and the humans effectively do? Kinda hard picturing them being effective when Super Saiyan Trunks couldn't even stun her with his sword. The closest thing I can think of is Piccolo and Krillin grabbing #18, giving Tien a chance to nuke her with a Neo Ki-Ko-Ho, but that'd be kinda dangerous for all of them. Other than that, they'd be fucked if she didn't pull any punches.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What are we arguing about, I'm lost and too lazy to look back .

[RandomGuy96]

How close Vegeta was to 18. People are saying that all that stuff about 18 having infinite stamina didn't matter, that 17 is kind of stupid for thinking that 18 couldn't handle Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo at once, and that Piccolo and Trunks are stupid in turn for thinking that Vegeta was holding his own before his stamina dropped.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And that Vegeta was inaccurate in thinking Trunks, Piccolo and the humans would've made no difference in the battle