"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cetra]

Did the manga ever have him coming back?

Basically he readied his Hope to visit them and then fought Cell.

Interesting. Then he already knows about Goten and potentially 18 marrying krilen too.

I doubt that he went to the Boo Saga actually (or before the Boo Saga). And as things are now I am not even sure if they thought about him coming back. I more think that he travelled back to where he left - if he came back.

[Lord Beerus]

My God, what an awesome chapter. This is Toyotaro's best work for the franchise yet. The reveal of Goku Black was simply masterful. Almost makes me forgive all of the BS of the previous chapter.

[Xeztin]

I'm looking forward to buying the second tankoubon when it's released; Toyotaro's been doing really well.

I'm really hoping we get a 3-in-1 release with Toyotaro penning the "F" arc as bonus content.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

My God, what an awesome chapter. This is Toyotaro's best work for the franchise yet. The reveal of Goku Black was simply masterful. Almost makes me forgive all of the BS of the previous chapter.

This arc seems to bringing the best out of the anime and Manga. Maybe Toei giving Toriyama the basis for a story seems like the way to go.

[HeroR]

My God, what an awesome chapter. This is Toyotaro's best work for the franchise yet. The reveal of Goku Black was simply masterful. Almost makes me forgive all of the BS of the previous chapter.

This arc seems to bringing the best out of the anime and Manga. Maybe Toei giving Toriyama the basis for a story seems like the way to go.

Although the future segments are done extremely well, I hate that Bulma's death is done off-screen, and we get no interaction between Trunks and Bulma like the anime. I mean, really. Future Bulma can't even get the dignity of dying on-screen?

I also don't like how contrived the present conversations are. I mean, what are the chances that everyone is talking about time-travel when Future Trunks is about to return, including the school teacher? I know Toyotaro is trying to explain things quickly since he's behind and only have so many pages, that the present just doesn't feel natural.

[kinisking]

My God, what an awesome chapter. This is Toyotaro's best work for the franchise yet. The reveal of Goku Black was simply masterful. Almost makes me forgive all of the BS of the previous chapter.

This arc seems to bringing the best out of the anime and Manga. Maybe Toei giving Toriyama the basis for a story seems like the way to go.

Nah, I think it's just due to the fact that we have a villian for the first time in a long time. I don't really count the movies because they were made to be just that, movies.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I also don't like how contrived the present conversations are. I mean, what are the chances that everyone is talking about time-travel when Future Trunks is about to return, including the school teacher? I know Toyotaro is trying to explain things quickly since he's behind and only have so many pages, that the present just doesn't feel natural.

To be fair, we generally only see these characters for less than 24 hours total for the arcs in Super. Yet Trunks could have shown up at almost any point in the previous two arcs and had time travel discussion and a typical Jaco warning within a short window of his arrival (Bluma explaining about Future Trunks to Jaco, Whis' Time-Rewind, Hit's Time-Skip).

[HeroR]

I also don't like how contrived the present conversations are. I mean, what are the chances that everyone is talking about time-travel when Future Trunks is about to return, including the school teacher? I know Toyotaro is trying to explain things quickly since he's behind and only have so many pages, that the present just doesn't feel natural.

To be fair, we generally only see these characters for less than 24 hours total for the arcs in Super. Yet Trunks could have shown up at almost any point in the previous two arcs and had time travel discussion and a typical Jaco warning within a short window of his arrival (Bluma explaining about Future Trunks to Jaco, Whis' Time-Rewind, Hit's Time-Skip).

I will agree that it is contrived that Future Trunks arrives when he did and not in the middle the Buu Saga, or when everyone is gone to fight at the Universal Tournament. But that is just story convenient I am willing to go along with, like why didn't Raditz come to Earth sooner, by didn't Babidi and Dabura come to Earth during the Cell Saga, ect.

The conversation about time travel talk before Future Trunks arrives just feels force and I wonder if Toyotaro could have just done with the anime did and have Jaco or Whis explain this stuff after seeing Trunks' time machine. And I want an explanation on how time-travel relates to beauty products. I also like how the anime did it with the fuel foreshadow in that we are shown Bulma working on something, but we don't know what and it isn't mentioned again until it was necessary. Also, the previous conversations about time travel made sense since they were talking about people fooling with time like Whis, Hit, and Bulma telling Jaco that her son from the future killed Freeza. To me, that is enough foreshadow of the danger of time travel without needing Jaco to say it again before Trunks even arrives.

Again, I understand why Toyotaro did it this way since he doesn't have the time or pages to spread certain things out, but I feel he could have done better on this. I will say, I like how Mai and Trunks sneak around to get the time machine better than the anime, which glossed over that. Reminds me of the Saturday morning Sonic cartoon from the 90s.

[Xeztin]

This is so cool!
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[Nejishiki]

That last page though...
Overall, I like this one more than the anime version, except Bulma's death and not being able to hear Black's awesome voice. Though I gotta admit, seeing so much romance in a Dragonball manga makes me feel uneasy, not that I dislike the pairing.

Was it romantic or supportive? Future Trunks didn't exactly reciprocate the embrace back, nor was he positioned to welcome any sort of affection given the awkward position Future Mai went out of her to cover. It may still be ambiguous Dragon Ball hinting (one-sided, at that, for both versions of the character), especially with Future Trunks quickly becoming serious again after calming down.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

My God, what an awesome chapter. This is Toyotaro's best work for the franchise yet. The reveal of Goku Black was simply masterful. Almost makes me forgive all of the BS of the previous chapter.

This arc seems to bringing the best out of the anime and Manga. Maybe Toei giving Toriyama the basis for a story seems like the way to go.

Nah, I think it's just due to the fact that we have a villian for the first time in a long time. I don't really count the movies because they were made to be just that, movies.

Perhaps. Black has been a pretty awesome villain too and seems to be much deeper than I am strong I will destroy everything. Can't wait for him to be further explored.

[Grimlock]

Too bad this last chapter just covered the first episode. I want some answers about how and when Future Trunks got Super Saiyan 2 and if he always fought against Goku Black with it.

[Neon Z]

To be fair, it's Jaco that pushes the conversation towards time travel, and it seems to be based on a coincidence that is around in both anime and manga (Bulma working on something related to time machines - fuel in the anime, it's not clear yet what in the manga).

And the context and intention of the naming is not "oh let's confuse people". It is merely a side-effect coming from giving them the term of "artificial human". They are modified human beings. So looking at both terms, cyborgs is more appropriate than androids can ever be simply because cyborgs is what they are.

You're looking at a literal translation of a Japanese word and ignoring its own use. Jinzouningen, outside of Dragonball, effectively means "Android". When the readers see that word, they instantly will expect them to be human-like robots, just like the characters themselves did. Sometimes, the Japanese equal cyborg to "Artificial Human", but in that case it's because sometimes they inappropriately use "Cyborg" for things that are actually androids, not the other way around (as an example, the Japanese super hero Kikaider is a jinzouningen/android, but is called a cyborg too). Dragonball and its use of the word jinzouningen for modified humans is fairly unique.

I also think you might confuse what happened in the story because 17 thought 16 was a cyborg. He even thought "16 is a modified man like me" and then 16 said he was made out of nothing. So even characters like 17 were used to show exactly the opposite: Oh, Gero did make not only cyborgs, but also androids.

17 is a completely different situation though. He was one of the supposed "androids" so obviously he knew what they were. Even after that scene, read Vegeta's dialogue with 18 during their battle, he talks about her like she were a robot.

Something that you think of as so obvious (to be fair, it was obvious after 19 but that there were also cyborgs was definitely not the big shocker, only for characters like Goku, even the Z warriors flat out asked Gero "are you Dr. Gero?", something you do not ask an android, but a cyborg).

That was only when Bulma saw him and recognized him.

[Cetra]

You're looking at a literal translation of a Japanese word and ignoring its own use. Jinzouningen, outside of Dragonball, effectively means "Android".
...
Sometimes, the Japanese equal cyborg to "Artificial Human", but in that case it's because sometimes they inappropriately use "Cyborg" for things that are actually androids, not the other way around

I am not "ignoring its own use". It is just that you cannot go after the most common translation/meaning if there is no possibility that it covers what they are. You would classify a strawberry as a berry, right? Well, congrats. You are wrong. Scientifically spoken a strawberry is not a berry. And that is exactly the thing. It is fine to use a word with multiple meanings and "room for slight interpretations" but you have to be very careful when it comes to what people are actually talking about, about what they really mean right at this moment. Also there are enough people using it for not just an android. It just happens to be the word that is appropriate most of the time. And while we are talking about the strawberry example: That is exactly how language works. Multiple new meanings are added often. Look, the berry might not be scientificaly a berry but it is a "berry" in a more simple context nonetheless. If Japanese people use a word for a Cyborg like Jinzouningen, why not? It is like with the word of "canonicity". It also has "grown". I would for example be fine if that would happen with "Android" so people could actually use it for cyborgs but there are simply not enough people who actually use it with that meaning so you cannot add it as a "valid alternative meaning" to that word. In my opinion the only ones who can argue to use any word with any meaning, pronounciation, writing, et cetera, are simply people who own whatever is named x, even if it is uncommon. We cannot do that for example. And well, translators can't either. Their job is to adapt the intention. Something that did not happen here.

Dragonball and its use of the word jinzouningen for modified humans is fairly unique.

Unique or not, it does not magically make them Androids.

17 is a completely different situation though. He was one of the supposed "androids" so obviously he knew what they were. Even after that scene, read Vegeta's dialogue with 18 during their battle, he talks about her like she were a robot.

It still does not make her a robot. The series also treats Fusion sometimes as one newly born and differet and sometimes as just as collective consciousness that is not a newly born individual so it is really not all that great to use examples like those. It is really quite simple because here we have the option to ease it. What are they? Cyborgs: Yes, Androids: False, Artificial Humans (with multiple different meanings possible): Yes - What Word can be used to describe what they are without revealing what they are but leaving the possibility open: Cyborg: No (not at that time at least). Android: Never. Artificial Human: Yes.

You are trying to make Toriyama-san look like he wanted to give an impression that never was his intention in the first place. He just kept it simple and played with the characters this way. One character just treated them like things (a character that by the way also showed no respect when it comes to normal lifeforms), one character already assumed there were some cyborgs, et cetera. Androids would be fine if it would not cancel out the possibility of what they are. And Gero had literally no reason to name them with the same intention he named his other creations. It was a fitting word for all because it was ambigious. Android in English is far from ambigious.

That was only when Bulma saw him and recognized him.

No, that is not true. Bulma came way after that. So you are trying to make the characters dumber than they are for your argument. Piccolo wondered if Gero was Gero, which ultimately means that they did not all just think about "Androids". Then Gero lied to him that he wasn't Gero but just one of his creations - and this really renders the entire conversation unnessecary because they did not just think of the possibility you claim they did. It is dumb for a simple story like Dragon Ball to differentiate by just beginning a story and saying "btw. there are cyborgs, there are androids, the androids are actually self-aware and then there is this special kind of biogenetic mutant consisting of multple different cells of other people". This is way too specific and over the top. But we also do not need to make it confusing for ourselves by using a word that just leaves no possibility of understanding the right meaning. And with so many people still wondering if 17 and 18 are cyborgs or androids the word is clearly totally misplaced, something that by all means was never meant to be this extreme, in all respect.

That being said I am fine with you and me continuing via Private Mail if you want. I do not want to cause any disturbance in the force of the thread with my neurotical behaviour about semantics.

[Xeztin]

Too bad this last chapter just covered the first episode. I want some answers about how and when Future Trunks got Super Saiyan 2 and if he always fought against Goku Black with it.

I'm really hoping Toyotaro gets good enough to go Bi-Monthly. His art has increased since the start, and he's went form releasing 17 pages to 40+ in a month. Heck I'd even go as far to say he could do anywhere between 12-17 pages a week.

[Sodhi]

I dont know what is people's obsession to get everything explained.All info we really needed was trunks going back 17 years. Don't get me wrong I like things explained too, but sometimes it is good to leave things alone. It really gets annoying when you have to be spoon fed everything, like when I saw the anime I got that trunks machine was set the same as last time he came which was 17 years. Unless something creates a plothiole or is a new lore, we dont need to be explained every freaking thing. We have watched the series you know, we are not dumb.This is why whenever in anime or the manga they try to remind us shit what we as a fan already know,pissies me off.Otherwise good manga chapter, still prefer the anime version though.Oh and also awesome artwork, toyotaro did a really good job, great job actually.

[Alee9977]

I wonder why they are hiding the dates
Trunks came for the first time in 764, so now this arc is taking place in 781 and Trunks came from 798.
Maybe they are hiding because Bra isn't born yet? She was born in 780 but right now we are in 781. It seems they completely forget about her or it will be retconned.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

We should be in AGE 780, not 781. Thus putting Trunks at AGE 797. The anime, unfortunately, has to be pretty darn late in the year because of that stupid wish to Shenlong in the Champa Arc.

The manga doesn't face such a problem though (for now at least). It could still be in the last few months of AGE 779 without issue.

[Alee9977]

You may be right, maybe there aren't exactly 17 years of difference between Trunks defeating the androids and Black's arrival.
Well, he said he read his manga again to make BoG so he should remember Bra.

[emperior]

You may be right, maybe there aren't exactly 17 years of difference between Trunks defeating the androids and Black's arrival.
Well, he said he read his manga again to make BoG so he should remember Bra.

I also really doubt Toyotaro/Toei haven't already pointed out to Toriyama that Bulma and Vegeta are supposed to have a daughter by the end of the story.