"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Also GoD Toppo what a joke, it doesn't even look like he'll eliminate Freeza, since he's still there.

He's not even awake so I wouldn't count that as "being there". I do think that Toppo should've lasted into 127 but who knows, maybe that's where he gets kicked out.

Yeah but if unconcious Freeza ends up the last man st..eerh present on the stage, then he wins by default.

[sintzu]

Also GoD Toppo what a joke, it doesn't even look like he'll eliminate Freeza, since he's still there.

He's not even awake so I wouldn't count that as "being there". I do think that Toppo should've lasted into 127 but who knows, maybe that's where he gets kicked out.

Yeah but if unconcious Freeza ends up the last man st..eerh present on the stage, then he wins by default.

But Toppo still beat him like he was nothing. Yes he didn't get him out but I don't think that should take away from his win.

[Birusu16]

The issue with this potential Toppo elimination is it continues the worst trend throughout this entire tournament, which is building up tension and then undermining it by failing to follow through. It's Ribrianne, Kefla and the invisible warriors all over again, characters that seem like they're going to be a threat and and up accomplishing nothing. Admittedly Damon did take out Piccolo, them feeling like a joke was more due to bad writing and inconsistent tone, but still.

122 made this final battle look like it was going to be tough, but several episodes in and our heroes are still in the lead. Dyspo got Gohan eliminated, but it was a sacrifice on Gohan's terms, so he can't take credit. Jiren beat down Vegeta but refused to eliminate him because MARKETING, now we have to put up with Vegeta being insufferable for at least another two episodes. I used to love Vegeta but this arc, I don't think I've disliked a character more since Gotenks in the Buu saga.

Freeza survived his loss to Toppo and is free to come back later on (Toppo's attention seems focused on Vegeta and 17, I doubt next episode will have him swing around to double-tap Freeza since these characters aren't written like intelligent people), now it looks like 17 will also survive his seemingly unwinnable encounter with him next episode. It's putting everything on Jiren to bring this from a 4v1 lead to a 1v1 standoff. Sure he's quite capable of that, but I'd rather they hadn't wasted all these potential threats to get to this point.

May I ask why? I honestly don't get why some people find ToP Vegeta to be so bad. He's the best version from Super IMO. Cell saga Vegeta was the worst and remains the worst to this day IMO.

[Mercenary]

The issue with this potential Toppo elimination is it continues the worst trend throughout this entire tournament, which is building up tension and then undermining it by failing to follow through. It's Ribrianne, Kefla and the invisible warriors all over again, characters that seem like they're going to be a threat and and up accomplishing nothing. Admittedly Damon did take out Piccolo, them feeling like a joke was more due to bad writing and inconsistent tone, but still.

122 made this final battle look like it was going to be tough, but several episodes in and our heroes are still in the lead. Dyspo got Gohan eliminated, but it was a sacrifice on Gohan's terms, so he can't take credit. Jiren beat down Vegeta but refused to eliminate him because MARKETING, now we have to put up with Vegeta being insufferable for at least another two episodes. I used to love Vegeta but this arc, I don't think I've disliked a character more since Gotenks in the Buu saga.

Freeza survived his loss to Toppo and is free to come back later on (Toppo's attention seems focused on Vegeta and 17, I doubt next episode will have him swing around to double-tap Freeza since these characters aren't written like intelligent people), now it looks like 17 will also survive his seemingly unwinnable encounter with him next episode. It's putting everything on Jiren to bring this from a 4v1 lead to a 1v1 standoff. Sure he's quite capable of that, but I'd rather they hadn't wasted all these potential threats to get to this point.

May I ask why? I honestly don't get why some people find ToP Vegeta to be so bad. He's the best version from Super IMO. Cell saga Vegeta was the worst and remains the worst to this day IMO.

Phrases like : "I've used to like him but now I don't because...blah blah blah" are simply to justify your negative opinion about somebody. You're trying to convince people that you liked someone back in the day but the truth is - you'd never liked him. It is commonly used only to hide your hater/fanboy status.

Because it works the other way round as well. For example :

"You know, I like Goku more but I want Vegeta to win this!" - it's clear that you like Vegeta more but you are using Goku just to not give people arguments about you being a Vegeta's fanboy. Period.

This guy simply has never liked Vegeta at all because Vegeta's fans are clearly happy as you can see because of the circumstances.


BTW. It would be great to see Vegeta eliminate Toppo and afterwards contribute to Jiren's downfall. Prince is the GOAT!

[Whatever]

I'm gonna be smart and wait because I'm not a moron. But for a show that was bashed for being too much Goku and Vegeta, I find it amusing that people are mad that 17 is still in.


it goes to my theory that most dragon ball fans only truly care about the saiyans and they just act like they care about the others.

Most people that hate that 17 is in are Gohan fans because 17 outlasted him.
Jeez,its like people have different favourite characters that are not Goku/Vegeta or 17 or its like even if they have characters they like they don't them to outshine their favourites.

Its like you could conclude that people have different opinions or something.

[Kataphrut]

The issue with this potential Toppo elimination is it continues the worst trend throughout this entire tournament, which is building up tension and then undermining it by failing to follow through. It's Ribrianne, Kefla and the invisible warriors all over again, characters that seem like they're going to be a threat and and up accomplishing nothing. Admittedly Damon did take out Piccolo, them feeling like a joke was more due to bad writing and inconsistent tone, but still.

122 made this final battle look like it was going to be tough, but several episodes in and our heroes are still in the lead. Dyspo got Gohan eliminated, but it was a sacrifice on Gohan's terms, so he can't take credit. Jiren beat down Vegeta but refused to eliminate him because MARKETING, now we have to put up with Vegeta being insufferable for at least another two episodes. I used to love Vegeta but this arc, I don't think I've disliked a character more since Gotenks in the Buu saga.

Freeza survived his loss to Toppo and is free to come back later on (Toppo's attention seems focused on Vegeta and 17, I doubt next episode will have him swing around to double-tap Freeza since these characters aren't written like intelligent people), now it looks like 17 will also survive his seemingly unwinnable encounter with him next episode. It's putting everything on Jiren to bring this from a 4v1 lead to a 1v1 standoff. Sure he's quite capable of that, but I'd rather they hadn't wasted all these potential threats to get to this point.

May I ask why? I honestly don't get why some people find ToP Vegeta to be so bad. He's the best version from Super IMO. Cell saga Vegeta was the worst and remains the worst to this day IMO.

Because ToP Vegeta IS Cell Saga Vegeta. U6/Future Trunks Vegeta was good, he felt like a continuation of his development from Z and a good foil to Goku. We saw glimpses of him too in the very beginning, during the recruitment phase. It all went wrong the moment they arrived in the World of Void.

ToP Vegeta is just every baseline stereotypical Vegeta trope out in full force. The arrogance, the obsession with surpassing Kakarot, the way he throws himself into fights with no regard for strategy. All culminating in a weak-sauce transformation fuelled by shallow motivation that basically feels like a handout to make up for giving the conceptually-interesting, legitimately game-changing new form to Goku. His best use in the entire arc was in 107 and that's because he was less a character and more a powerful chess piece, where the drama was in the weaker characters fighting for control over him.

[Draconic]

Nice to know 17 is still holding on. I wasn't really expecting him to get eliminated next episode, but since he's injured, he should get quite a beating by Toppo. I am fine with that. If there is one character who I don't think anyone would mind beating some sense into him and Freeza, that's Toppo. He had a great showing troughout, so it's good to get some balance.

Also, it basically confirms Vegeta takes out Toppo. Seems that "surpassing even a God of Destruction" subtitle wasn't just a joke. Makes me really curious how he does it. I mean, I predict the Final Explosion is going to be his life-threatning attack that does Toppo in, but it should be interesting to see if he actually kills himself. That would be a pretty nice way for Vegeta to go out (outside of the nice way of, you know, defeating a huge threat to U7). Even if it's a rehash of the Buu saga, if it actually matters this time, I think that's enough to make it stand on it's own.

Curious about Freeza, though. We know he's still going to do some stuff in the next episode, but I'm really curious if he's out by 128. I mean, I'm not sure what exactly he could do against Jiren, seeing as he got wrecked by the inferior Toppo, but if Vegeta and Toppo are out, 17 sacrifices himself against Jiren and the only ones left in the arena are him, Goku and Jiren... well, that is basically playing right along with his plan.

[Birusu16]

The issue with this potential Toppo elimination is it continues the worst trend throughout this entire tournament, which is building up tension and then undermining it by failing to follow through. It's Ribrianne, Kefla and the invisible warriors all over again, characters that seem like they're going to be a threat and and up accomplishing nothing. Admittedly Damon did take out Piccolo, them feeling like a joke was more due to bad writing and inconsistent tone, but still.

122 made this final battle look like it was going to be tough, but several episodes in and our heroes are still in the lead. Dyspo got Gohan eliminated, but it was a sacrifice on Gohan's terms, so he can't take credit. Jiren beat down Vegeta but refused to eliminate him because MARKETING, now we have to put up with Vegeta being insufferable for at least another two episodes. I used to love Vegeta but this arc, I don't think I've disliked a character more since Gotenks in the Buu saga.

Freeza survived his loss to Toppo and is free to come back later on (Toppo's attention seems focused on Vegeta and 17, I doubt next episode will have him swing around to double-tap Freeza since these characters aren't written like intelligent people), now it looks like 17 will also survive his seemingly unwinnable encounter with him next episode. It's putting everything on Jiren to bring this from a 4v1 lead to a 1v1 standoff. Sure he's quite capable of that, but I'd rather they hadn't wasted all these potential threats to get to this point.

May I ask why? I honestly don't get why some people find ToP Vegeta to be so bad. He's the best version from Super IMO. Cell saga Vegeta was the worst and remains the worst to this day IMO.

Because ToP Vegeta IS Cell Saga Vegeta. U6/Future Trunks Vegeta was good, he felt like a continuation of his development from Z and a good foil to Goku. We saw glimpses of him too in the very beginning, during the recruitment phase. It all went wrong the moment they arrived in the World of Void.

ToP Vegeta is just every baseline stereotypical Vegeta trope out in full force. The arrogance, the obsession with surpassing Kakarot, the way he throws himself into fights with no regard for strategy. All culminating in a weak-sauce transformation fuelled by shallow motivation that basically feels like a handout to make up for giving the conceptually-interesting, legitimately game-changing new form to Goku. His best use in the entire arc was in 107 and that's because he was less a character and more a powerful chess piece, where the drama was in the weaker characters fighting for control over him.

He's not remotely close to the kind of character he was in the Cell saga. The arrogance will always be there, but it's not remotely as bad as it was in the Cell saga. He's not even obsessed with surpassing Goku anymore (he practically said that in episode 122 where he said Goku can have his UI). Vegeta has rarely used strategy since his Namek days. He's always been a brawler more than a strategist.

All this tells me is that you never understood the character in the first place.

Phrases like : "I've used to like him but now I don't because...blah blah blah" are simply to justify your negative opinion about somebody. You're trying to convince people that you liked someone back in the day but the truth is - you'd never liked him. It is commonly used only to hide your hater/fanboy status.

Because it works the other way round as well. For example :

"You know, I like Goku more but I want Vegeta to win this!" - it's clear that you like Vegeta more but you are using Goku just to not give people arguments about you being a Vegeta's fanboy. Period.

This guy simply has never liked Vegeta at all because Vegeta's fans are clearly happy as you can see because of the circumstances.


BTW. It would be great to see Vegeta eliminate Toppo and afterwards contribute to Jiren's downfall. Prince is the GOAT!

Certainly seems like it.

[sintzu]

It would be great to see Vegeta eliminate Toppo and afterwards contribute to Jiren's downfall. Prince is the GOAT!

If he wasn't going to play some major role against Jiren then I don't think they would've kept him around so whatever it is it'll be good.

It's a good time to be a Vegeta fan.

[Mercenary]

It would be great to see Vegeta eliminate Toppo and afterwards contribute to Jiren's downfall. Prince is the GOAT!

If he wasn't going to play some major role against Jiren then I don't think they would've kept him around so whatever it is it'll be good.

It's a good time to be a Vegeta fan.

Yeah, definitely.

What makes me think he will play important role afterwards is this Toshio's episode which was bringed up so many times but it hasn't aired yet!

[RockingEvilZ]

It's great to see Vegeta's fans happy about his victory as if it goes through (Spoilers have been wrong before) then this will be his first main victory in the anime, something we've all been waiting years to see.

There are some who are surprised or upset about this and to them I ask, why ? Why are you surprised to see someone who's been the 2nd main character from the very start do well in the story's last arc ?

For real I've been waiting this for so many years

[sintzu]

It would be great to see Vegeta eliminate Toppo and afterwards contribute to Jiren's downfall. Prince is the GOAT!

If he wasn't going to play some major role against Jiren then I don't think they would've kept him around so whatever it is it'll be good.

It's a good time to be a Vegeta fan.

Yeah, definitely.

What makes me think he will play important role afterwards is this Toshio's episode which was bringed up so many times but it hasn't aired yet!

Whatever that episode is it'll be soon as there aren't many left. Maybe 128.

[Draconic]

I am still not sure how Vegeta being arrogant means that he reverted to his Cell arc self. I mean, after all the development he got in the Buu saga, like being grateful for his family; chosing to spare Goku a fight with Majin Buu realizing it was his fault for his ressurection; accepting to fuse with Goku; returning to Earth to defend if against Majin Buu; once Kid Buu started to kick his shit in big time, he still went on about being the Prince of Saiyans, taunting the guy like he wasn't the biggest threat he's ever faced. Him being kinda dumb and getting into fights with stronger people is a Vegeta thing, not a Cell arc Vegeta thing.

What is he supposed to act like? Cower in fear at the sight of Toppo or Jiren? He's kind of an ass to Goku, but since they're working together and have done so constantly troughout the arc shows he's not an ass to him out of hate or lack of respect, but because he's... well, Vegeta. They worked alongside eachother against U9, the U2 sniper and now Jiren. He protected Goku while gathering Ki for the Genki Dama (him not giving his own Ki was quite dickish, but a smart move regardless). He's been respectful to Muten Roshi. He mentored Cabba and promised he'd bring the U6 guys back if he wins. Now he's about to sacrifice himself against Toppo.

It's textbook Vegeta. Sure, there's nothing really interesting or special or new done with him, but it's far from regression. At worst, it's stagnation, but even that I wouldn't call it, since him working with Goku is a thing that's been on the back burner and developing more with each arc, culminating into what we have now.

[Kataphrut]

May I ask why? I honestly don't get why some people find ToP Vegeta to be so bad. He's the best version from Super IMO. Cell saga Vegeta was the worst and remains the worst to this day IMO.

Because ToP Vegeta IS Cell Saga Vegeta. U6/Future Trunks Vegeta was good, he felt like a continuation of his development from Z and a good foil to Goku. We saw glimpses of him too in the very beginning, during the recruitment phase. It all went wrong the moment they arrived in the World of Void.

ToP Vegeta is just every baseline stereotypical Vegeta trope out in full force. The arrogance, the obsession with surpassing Kakarot, the way he throws himself into fights with no regard for strategy. All culminating in a weak-sauce transformation fuelled by shallow motivation that basically feels like a handout to make up for giving the conceptually-interesting, legitimately game-changing new form to Goku. His best use in the entire arc was in 107 and that's because he was less a character and more a powerful chess piece, where the drama was in the weaker characters fighting for control over him.

He's not remotely close to the kind of character he was in the Cell saga. The arrogance will always be there, but it's not remotely as bad as it was in the Cell saga. He's not even obsessed with surpassing Goku anymore (he practically said that in episode 122 where he said Goku can have his UI). Vegeta has rarely used strategy since his Namek days. He's always been a brawler more than a strategist.

All this tells me is that you never understood the character in the first place.

Oh, don't hit me with that "no true Scotsman" line. I understand the character just fine, and I think the writing for Vegeta has regressed because they're trying to have their cake and eat it.

Since we've been talking about Cell saga Vegeta, I should point out that that version is actually perfectly characterised for the point he was at in his development. By that point, Vegeta's goals had moved from overthrowing Freeza to defeating Goku and reclaiming his position as the strongest Saiyan, and every action he took was in aid of that. He was nominally on the side of good because he knew he couldn't make trouble if he wanted that rematch with Goku, and defeating the Androids and Cell would let him assert his superiority. He didn't care about the fate of the world at all, so dangerously stupid actions like letting Cell absorb 18 made total sense for him. He wasn't rewarded for those actions either like he was in the ToP (we'll get to that). But then Goku died and Vegeta lost his purpose, which led to him becoming essentially domesticated in the 7 year time skip. His arc in the Buu saga was all about coming to terms with the fact that he was starting to care about Earth and his family more than being the Prince of All Saiyans, which culminated with his epiphany during the final fight with Kid Buu.

He never stopped trying to surpass Goku in Super, but for most of the show they did a good job reconciling that with his post-Buu development. The ToP threw it all in the bin by making Saiyan pride his defining trait once again and having him make the same stupid reckless decisions he did in the Cell saga without the justification of not caring about the risk to the world. The fights with Kid Buu and Goku Black & Zamasu showed that when the stakes were serious, Vegeta was willing to work with others against powerful foes. Yet in the ToP, with his family and entire universe on the line, he's beelining for Jiren. Any teamwork with Goku at the moment is on sufferance and Whis basically described their effectiveness together as a happy accident. Him snubbing Ultra Instinct isn't a sign of character development either, he was basically saying "I'll get my own form, with blackjack and hookers". And that new form epitomises the problem with how he's been written.

If this is going to descend into fanboy squabbling, let me ask this: if you're not a Vegeta fanboy, what reason do you have to care about his new form? The way I see it, the only reason anyone is excited by it is wanting him to win and keep up with Goku. By contrast, you don't have to be a Goku fanboy to appreciate Ultra Instinct, you don't have to be a Gohan fanboy to appreciate Super Saiyan 2 and you don't have to be a Vegeta fanboy to appreciate Majin Vegeta.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I’m wondering what’s going to be the thing that will lead to goku going UI against jiren.

[Birusu16]

Because ToP Vegeta IS Cell Saga Vegeta. U6/Future Trunks Vegeta was good, he felt like a continuation of his development from Z and a good foil to Goku. We saw glimpses of him too in the very beginning, during the recruitment phase. It all went wrong the moment they arrived in the World of Void.

ToP Vegeta is just every baseline stereotypical Vegeta trope out in full force. The arrogance, the obsession with surpassing Kakarot, the way he throws himself into fights with no regard for strategy. All culminating in a weak-sauce transformation fuelled by shallow motivation that basically feels like a handout to make up for giving the conceptually-interesting, legitimately game-changing new form to Goku. His best use in the entire arc was in 107 and that's because he was less a character and more a powerful chess piece, where the drama was in the weaker characters fighting for control over him.

He's not remotely close to the kind of character he was in the Cell saga. The arrogance will always be there, but it's not remotely as bad as it was in the Cell saga. He's not even obsessed with surpassing Goku anymore (he practically said that in episode 122 where he said Goku can have his UI). Vegeta has rarely used strategy since his Namek days. He's always been a brawler more than a strategist.

All this tells me is that you never understood the character in the first place.

Oh, don't hit me with that "no true Scotsman" line. I understand the character just fine, and I think the writing for Vegeta has regressed because they're trying to have their cake and eat it.

Since we've been talking about Cell saga Vegeta, I should point out that that version is actually perfectly characterised for the point he was at in his development. By that point, Vegeta's goals had moved from overthrowing Freeza to defeating Goku and reclaiming his position as the strongest Saiyan, and every action he took was in aid of that. He was nominally on the side of good because he knew he couldn't make trouble if he wanted that rematch with Goku, and defeating the Androids and Cell would let him assert his superiority. He didn't care about the fate of the world at all, so dangerously stupid actions like letting Cell absorb 18 made total sense for him. He wasn't rewarded for those actions either like he was in the ToP (we'll get to that). But then Goku died and Vegeta lost his purpose, which led to him becoming essentially domesticated in the 7 year time skip. His arc in the Buu saga was all about coming to terms with the fact that he was starting to care about Earth and his family more than being the Prince of All Saiyans, which culminated with his epiphany during the final fight with Kid Buu.

He never stopped trying to surpass Goku in Super, but for most of the show they did a good job reconciling that with his post-Buu development. The ToP threw it all in the bin by making Saiyan pride his defining trait once again and having him make the same stupid reckless decisions he did in the Cell saga without the justification of not caring about the risk to the world. The fights with Kid Buu and Goku Black & Zamasu showed that when the stakes were serious, Vegeta was willing to work with others against powerful foes. Yet in the ToP, with his family and entire universe on the line, he's beelining for Jiren. Any teamwork with Goku at the moment is on sufferance and Whis basically described their effectiveness together as a happy accident. Him snubbing Ultra Instinct isn't a sign of character development either, he was basically saying "I'll get my own form, with blackjack and hookers". And that new form epitomises the problem with how he's been written.

If this is going to descend into fanboy squabbling, let me ask this: if you're not a Vegeta fanboy, what reason do you have to care about his new form? The way I see it, the only reason anyone is excited by it is wanting him to win and keep up with Goku. By contrast, you don't have to be a Goku fanboy to appreciate Ultra Instinct, you don't have to be a Gohan fanboy to appreciate Super Saiyan 2 and you don't have to be a Vegeta fanboy to appreciate Majin Vegeta.

That's exactly what you're doing, which is why I'm not going to bother continuing this. Mercenary was right.

[Totamo]

I'm gonna be smart and wait because I'm not a moron. But for a show that was bashed for being too much Goku and Vegeta, I find it amusing that people are mad that 17 is still in.


it goes to my theory that most dragon ball fans only truly care about the saiyans and they just act like they care about the others.

Most people that hate that 17 is in are Gohan fans because 17 outlasted him.
Jeez,its like people have different favourite characters that are not Goku/Vegeta or 17 or its like even if they have characters they like they don't them to outshine their favourites.

Its like you could conclude that people have different opinions or something.

You just proved me right because Gohan is a saiyan as well.

[Freezerbaby]

From 127 summary I take it the surprising elimination this week is freeza, Vegeta life-risking attack might wear toppo out and then freeza takes revenge ringing out both, himself and Toppo when the later is about to knock off an exhausted vegeta.

17 seemingly being out by 126 nep was misleading as expected.

[Ki Breaker]

The way this is going 17 might as well end Jiren without showing any emotion, will find a weakness for something while running around..
He is already lasting longer than golden Freeza did against Toppo, vegeta is getting his ass beat after a powerup and 17 is running around places he shouldn't even be 10 feet near..
I don't particularly care for 17 but this is just silly..
Want manga version asap, need to know what was actually planned for 17..

[Michsi]

I always wondered if there'd be someone that would sacrifice their life in this TOP. Something that requires one to go all out without killing someone from the opposing team. Roshi almost did it but survived. With how things are described and how far they went to feature 17, it's plausible they'd want to go down this route for drama purposes. This could be what pushed Goku over the edge into super UI or whatever. It's been a while since we've had a death triggered power up. (not counting Vegeta-Cabba scene.)