Unpopular DB opinions

[Doctor.]

They don't do that due to personality flaws.

Not every villain has personality flaws. Some are presented as pragmatic, like Piccolo and Black.

If Piccolo were truly pragmatic, he'd have just shot a beam through Goku's head when he had him crippled. And Black had numerous opportunities to kill the heroes which he wasted, though I suppose he had a valid reason in that he wanted them to power him up even further.

I said presented as. They're not completely pragmatic because the story wouldn't allow for it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Not every villain has personality flaws. Some are presented as pragmatic, like Piccolo and Black.

If Piccolo were truly pragmatic, he'd have just shot a beam through Goku's head when he had him crippled. And Black had numerous opportunities to kill the heroes which he wasted, though I suppose he had a valid reason in that he wanted them to power him up even further.

I said presented as. They're not completely pragmatic because the story wouldn't allow for it.

Regardless of how they're presented, those personality flaws are still evident.

[ABED]

If a Vegeta with some development did it, it would've worked. Like if you somehow had the Majin Boo arc happen first and Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi is what let him attain that power, it would've worked a lot better.

But Vegeta was developing slowly. It worked fine. I like your idea, but I'm perfectly fine with how it was in the manga. Vegeta got the thing he supposedly wanted and it didn't make him what he thought he was - the strongest. While most of it isn't shown, Vegeta did train in even more hellacious gravity than Goku, so it wasn't unearned.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If a Vegeta with some development did it, it would've worked. Like if you somehow had the Majin Boo arc happen first and Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi is what let him attain that power, it would've worked a lot better.

But Vegeta was developing slowly. It worked fine. I like your idea, but I'm perfectly fine with how it was in the manga. Vegeta got the thing he supposedly wanted and it didn't make him what he thought he was - the strongest. While most of it isn't shown, Vegeta did train in even more hellacious gravity than Goku, so it wasn't unearned.

Gravity training wasn't how Goku obtained the form.

[ABED]

If a Vegeta with some development did it, it would've worked. Like if you somehow had the Majin Boo arc happen first and Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi is what let him attain that power, it would've worked a lot better.

But Vegeta was developing slowly. It worked fine. I like your idea, but I'm perfectly fine with how it was in the manga. Vegeta got the thing he supposedly wanted and it didn't make him what he thought he was - the strongest. While most of it isn't shown, Vegeta did train in even more hellacious gravity than Goku, so it wasn't unearned.

Gravity training wasn't how Goku obtained the form.

It was a necessary step on that journey. Had Goku not obtained the power he did using the gravity machine, he never would've been able to fight Ginyu and been in a position to fight Freeza.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But Vegeta was developing slowly. It worked fine. I like your idea, but I'm perfectly fine with how it was in the manga. Vegeta got the thing he supposedly wanted and it didn't make him what he thought he was - the strongest. While most of it isn't shown, Vegeta did train in even more hellacious gravity than Goku, so it wasn't unearned.

Gravity training wasn't how Goku obtained the form.

It was a necessary step on that journey. Had Goku not obtained the power he did using the gravity machine, he never would've been able to fight Ginyu and been in a position to fight Freeza.

That doesn't really hold up, by that logic you could say Goku's entire life was a necessary step on that journey.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It was...kind of.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Basil is stronger than Lavenda.

Just seems that way to me from watching their fights.

[ABED]

Gravity training wasn't how Goku obtained the form.

It was a necessary step on that journey. Had Goku not obtained the power he did using the gravity machine, he never would've been able to fight Ginyu and been in a position to fight Freeza.

That doesn't really hold up, by that logic you could say Goku's entire life was a necessary step on that journey.

It was. I'd hate to think what that would mean if it wasn't.

[ekrolo2]

The only way Goku can work as a role model for anyone is if you use him as a cautionary tale of how naivety, selfishness coupled with an obsessive desire can be highly destructive for yourself and those around you. Basically when the concept of improving yourself goes completely awry.

[Gaffer Tape]

For the record, Freeza was conceived during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai ac. I doubt his initial concept survived into what we have today though.

Dragon Ball 30th Anniversary “Super History Book” (21 January 2016)"]So when drawing Demon King Piccolo, were you thinking of ideas for the Freeza arc, or anything like that?
I didn’t think about that at all. Just handling Demon King Piccolo was more than enough to keep me busy. I suppose the first time I started thinking about the Freeza arc was probably midway through Ma Junior. The series was up in the polls, so I probably had a hunch that I wouldn’t be able to end it any time soon.

For what it's worth, I don't tend to interpret that as him having thought of the character of Freeza. Neither the interviewer nor Toriyama refers to Freeza as a character. They are talking about the story arc itself. And midway through the Ma Junior stuff, which is what he references, is about the point where Ma and Shen break out their alien language. So it seems more likely that he had thoughts about exploring Piccolo's background or traveling to space or things like that. It seems less likely he was thinking about "a tiny, horned galactic overlord who is the boss of the next villain I haven't even created yet."

[Zephyr]

It's precisely the other way around. It being permanent is what makes it absurdly broken, especially when Boo is on your side now. It having a time limit and, like the fusion dance, the limit shortening the more power you use, pretty much establishes that fusion is useless and will no longer be used.

It being permanent made it a double edged sword: your fusion will never run out, however, you have to sacrifice your individual identity as a person. That's a legitimate consequence. There are workarounds, sure, but the drawback is still there, inherent to the fusion method, that needs to be worked around.

Now there's no drawback, no consequence. Nothing to even be worked around. It's even more convenient, making it less interesting to me, and it had absolutely no reason to be made more convenient, since they already had workarounds.

Yes, and that's my point. Before, we had two seperate, differently viable forms of fusion. Now one is 100% obsolete. I don't see why having a less diverse palette with which to combat threats is a good thing in a series about combating threats.

But what's the problem with that? Fusions is just essentially irrelevant at this point in time. The chances of Vegetto showing up are literally none, as Vegeta would rather eat a worm than fuse with Goku.

The problem is that now there's even less reason for Vegeta to take issue with it. He doesn't have to do a silly dance, he doesn't have to risk being permanently merged with Goku (prior to the retcon, were the DBs or Buu to get nixed, then there goes the ability to defuse). And this is the era where that stick is slowly becoming dislodged from his ass, so in dire situations, either of those things should bother him less to begin with.

Also my fandom are you Akira Toriyama , but regardless the fandom also thinks that King Cold was in his true form on Earth.

And even then the fandom never actually believed the statement of it being bad air, heck I find more theories about it being magic or something. Which is a problem as the only reason we got is bad air.

"The fandom" isn't one person. "My" fandom is simply my personal history as a fan.

But Goku never once even implied that it was Buu's magic that defused the fusion, it was bad air and that was it. It wasn't that Buu's dark magic has defused us, it wasn't that the sheer quantity of magic in here has defused us. It was bad air. Also wasn't it the Kaio Shin's pure of heart(ness) that rendered Pure Buu into Majin Buu? It still was a problem as the fandom was finding ways to figure out how the hell this supposedly permanent fusion was capable of defusing because of bad air.

In the series proper, "bad air" is indeed the extent of the explanation, and that alone doesn't really do it. However, the series gave us a consistent enough pattern that one could easily fill in the blanks and connect the dots (as many around here at least had done for years prior to Super).

If the air is enough to break an otherwise magically permanent bond, the air seems fairly magical. Kaioshin's ki can't contribute to Buu's revival, and Buu's Kaioshin absorptions are abnormal (sure, only Dai Kaioshin lowered his power, but they're both the only absorptions that didn't consistently effect his clothing). Even if the series doesn't spell such out, it explains it well enough that I don't think a retcon was necessary. If that theory still doesn't do it for you, that's fine.

[Doctor.]

It being permanent made it a double edged sword: your fusion will never run out, however, you have to sacrifice your individual identity as a person. That's a legitimate consequence. There are workarounds, sure, but the drawback is still there, inherent to the fusion method, that needs to be worked around.

Again, it really has no drawback when Boo exists and is a part of your crew now.

I also honestly doubt the characters care about that if faced with the prospect of ultimate destruction. It was never a question posed in the show, whether or not they cared about sacrificing their own individuality to save the universe.

Now there's no drawback, no consequence. Nothing to even be worked around. It's even more convenient, making it less interesting to me, and it had absolutely no reason to be made more convenient, since they already had workarounds.

But it's not convenient at all, it's useless. It only lasts one hour and, if you use Super Saiyan Blue (which you're pretty much forced to use in case you want to defeat the opponent), it only lasts 5 minutes. God knows how long it lasts the stronger the Vegetto or if he uses Kaioken or any other technique that consumes a lot of Ki on top of that. They did this to make sure you never again ask "Why aren't they fusing?" when Goku and Vegeta are fighting an opponent. They're not fusing because fusion is not a good option anymore.

[Gog]

The fandom" isn't one person. "My" fandom is simply my personal history as a fan.

I considered it to be odd for the way you phrased it. And I do admit that I didn't understand what you meant, hence the Toriyama joke. But eh, we've kind of beaten this topic to death and I believe that there is no more ways to discuss this without stating the stating things over and over again. And half the reason why I do enjoy the retcon is that it has actually nerfed Vegetto.

Before the retcon if you fused into Vegetto, that was it you win. There is simply nothing that your opponent can do anymore to win. You're basically untouchable, your a fusion that lasts forever. But the retcon managed to completely and utterly render Vegetto useless in any scenario.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It was a necessary step on that journey. Had Goku not obtained the power he did using the gravity machine, he never would've been able to fight Ginyu and been in a position to fight Freeza.

That doesn't really hold up, by that logic you could say Goku's entire life was a necessary step on that journey.

It was. I'd hate to think what that would mean if it wasn't.

In that case no one else should have been able to achieve it since their lives are vastly different from Goku's.

[Noah]

The only way Goku can work as a role model for anyone is if you use him as a cautionary tale of how naivety, selfishness coupled with an obsessive desire can be highly destructive for yourself and those around you. Basically when the concept of improving yourself goes completely awry.

Well, I already heard people saying that Goku is somewhat cynical faking his naivety and acting like that in the real world you could get people to like you, which was a disturbed view in my opinion.

[ekrolo2]

The only way Goku can work as a role model for anyone is if you use him as a cautionary tale of how naivety, selfishness coupled with an obsessive desire can be highly destructive for yourself and those around you. Basically when the concept of improving yourself goes completely awry.

Well, I already heard people saying that Goku is somewhat cynical faking his naivety and acting like that in the real world you could get people to like you, which was a disturbed view in my opinion.

This doesn't surprise me. Plenty of manipulative people act as sweet or naive or harmless to get an edge.

I don't think Goku is like this... much, but it is an element to his character. He's very obviously capable of thinking things through more deeply, he just ignores this in favor of his obsession.

[Doctor.]

Goku is a role model. Who doesn't want to live their life to the fullest doing whatever they like most?

[Noah]

Goku is a role model. Who doesn't want to live their life to the fullest doing whatever they like most?

I do! But not with blood in my hands.

[ABED]

That doesn't really hold up, by that logic you could say Goku's entire life was a necessary step on that journey.

It was. I'd hate to think what that would mean if it wasn't.

In that case no one else should have been able to achieve it since their lives are vastly different from Goku's.

Not what I was getting at. Goku had to go through all those steps for HIM to be able to achieve it. If he didn't, what came before would've felt like a waste of time.