"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

So it appears that [spoiler]17 killed himself protecting Goku and Vegeta against Jiren's final attack.[/spoiler]

That would have been a dramatic moment, if death meant anything in the Dragon Ball Universe.
I guess Goku will have to make a stop a New Namek on his way home, that's all. More importantly, the preview has shown that Vegeta will fight Jiren in base? So we are in for another episode of reflection on Vegeta and Goku while Vegeta is getting beaten up. Also I love Jirens backstory. His parents got killed so he vowed to get stronger to get revenge. Who comes up with those genius original ideas?

You're mentioned an entire section of the story.

[HeroR]

How was it just as bad as last episode script wise?

I'll reserve my full judgement for once the subs are out, But the 'sacrifice' was pointless and had no emotional weight to it, Jiren's backstory is awfully generic to the point they shouldn't have even bothered, Freeza feels completely different to the way he was portrayed last episode where he had regained his composure somewhat (and he was already portrayed differently compared to the episode before that) and was just brought in for yet ANOTHER cheap Namek arc reference (that seems to be all that Freeza is good for, in this arc), and the fight is being padded out to the point of annoyance considering Goku and Vegeta are spamming their stamina-heavy forms and their super moves like fucking candy even though they should be out of energy and Jiren is SOMEHOW having trouble with them despite completely destroying Goku back when he was in a healthy state.

....You said it got worse.

It doesn't really mater. They're both terrible and I can't even believe a human being looked at the scrips and thought they were fine. Which one is worse is a petty distinction to make.

They shouldve hired Tite Kubo to do the scripts at least we couldve gotten better antagonists and fleshed out characters.

The writers don't decided a characters backstory.

[fadeddreams5]

When people say someone has "no personality," this is not meant to be taken literally. What they mean is the person has a very dull and boring one. In Jiren's case, he's the main antagonist and also written inconsistently, which makes his case worse.

Not sure how he's written inconsistently since he has remained the same since his first appearance. Dry and stoic.

Manga vs anime.

[HeroR]

When people say someone has "no personality," this is not meant to be taken literally. What they mean is the person has a very dull and boring one. In Jiren's case, he's the main antagonist and also written inconsistently, which makes his case worse.

Not sure how he's written inconsistently since he has remained the same since his first appearance. Dry and stoic.

Manga vs anime.

The manga and anime are different medias. So that isn't an inconsistent.

[Hawk9211]

It somehow keeps getting worse, holy shit. What in the actual hell do Toei writers smoke?

My thoughts exactly but I would not say worse,I'll say just as bad.But,these are this arc's problem as a whole and complaining about them every episode is just annoying.
However,I would disagree that generic plot point is bad it just depends on execution.

Having watched the episode myself now, I do have to admit that #17 really distinguished himself as an outlying success and momentum driver. He managed to steal the show for this episode. Although the number of narrational concessions that have been made throughout this tournament to help give these characters some validation does leave a bad taste in my mouth. When the quality performance is organic then it's meaningful. But what's been going on all throughout this tournament and now with inexplicable events like Vegeta somehow mustering up the strength to transform when he was at death's door last episode and the group somehow not getting obliterated by Jiren's glare alone does unfortunately take away from the enjoyment of the episode. I can't believe that any of the characters should have put on the kind of performance that they here. It was for showmanship purposes and I appreciate that, but it does raise a number of fan-concerned mechanics issues that will likely not get addressed.

I did enjoy watching Freeza become unhinged thanks to the actions of the Pride Troopers. Why I found it to be so poignant is because it was the first time, ever, that the tyrant lost his composure, if not his sanity for a short while due to the imposition of someone that wasn't a member of the Saiyan species. Watching this guy who's been the bane of our heroes for so long and had dominated them so badly at first only to have the tables get turned by a non-Saiyan, well it was a powerful moment for me; especially since it wasn't a shoot & kill execution but an absolute domination in hand-to-hand combat with Freeza getting his face planted in the dirt. I was almost hoping for Jiren to take Freeza physically apart and do some examination like on whether those purple carapaces are organic or not, see what's underneath -- maybe do a brutal labial extraction as well to ascertain if Freeza actually puts cosmetics on his face.

My thoughts exactly I like any non saiyan getting the spotlight but when 17 hurt jiren I was like seriously and I don't think he is dead.

[Ki Breaker]

The way Jiren's "villan" was portrayed I can't help but think it was black..
Everything around him reeks of black..

[Kaiosama]

It's pretty silly how the writing is going to be judging from the spoilers. Vegeta is going to get the ass kicking of his life and try to fight Jiren in Base Form with nothing left in the tank. The exact same thing is going to happen to Goku in 129, but it's going to trigger a fully mastered UI. Man... it's about to become a great time to be a Goku fan! I can't wait for the final fight. It's going to be epic. Although I wonder if Frieza is going to go out like a chump, or have a great moment?

[Xeogran]

The way Jiren's "villan" was portrayed I can't help but think it was black..
Everything around him reeks of black..

Black is long gone now and it wouldn't make sense/even more timeline convoluted mess.

I hope it's someone new, not that we'll know this anytime soon if ever...

[OverHeaven]

The way Jiren's "villan" was portrayed I can't help but think it was black..
Everything around him reeks of black..

Could you elaborate what do you mean by "everything" exactly?! Because the only thing I saw people base this silly idea on was the similarity here:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Which is stupid tbh, no offense but this is just the common generic evil shadow for suspense, or because he doesn't have any specific design yet. Countless shows do this.

That plus Black has nothing to do with Jiren, and that villain killed Jiren's parents when he was a kid, and he was still there after years of that when Jiren had grown up.

[Ki Breaker]

Could you elaborate what do you mean by "everything" exactly?!

Sure, here's a post I made in the other thread roughly going over some of the reasons I believe back fits the bill, there are many more but I think this should get the point across just fine

[Olympian]

1. But Vegeta isn't famous for crying and most shonen it parody it, can you name one time the games parody it? Yamcha has a move called playing dead in Xenoverse both games.Let that sink in

In Bodukai 2 (stage 6) if you lure Vegeta and Fat buu to the stage (supposely the same they fight in the Manga) Vegeta will just blow himself up without having o fight and Super Buu can just fly to the next stage. Pretty sure his 9000 meme has been in games before. Recently, the reassurgence of more Vegeta memes have been a thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... vibration/

This was just on Youtube`s recomendations list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xihF4J1VGQA and the "Shooting Star meme" has been a thing for some time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkibgI7BxoU

A few episodes ago Toei animated Vegeta getting beaten silly by Jiren to mimic the whole Cell beating. Now, that being said, I don`t disagree that Yamcha`s death pose is one of the biggest meme out of the work. It`s also older than most things Vegeta have done since then but certainly expect more to come around.

2. Yamcha saves them from Pilaf.......are you kidding me? Team rocket has a better track record And of course he was the one actively trying, he was the only one with a sword. Yajirobe does the exact same thing and he is not a fighter. That was Oolong, all Oolong. No, he fucking doesn't. Goku was hungry and later kicked his ass

More history revisions in order.

Goku and Yamcha ends up in a stalemate. Goku kicks one of Yamcha`s teeth out but the bandid is more concerned about his looks than he is hurt (yes, it`s gag element in a fight a Toryama standard - Goku bitting opponents anyone?) The same fight in Path of Power, the 10th year movie anniversary even has the hungry line taken out and the first fight ends the same way, with Goku being alive because Yamcha sees Bulma and leaves. Also, nice that you "shit" on Yajirobe but then mention Mr Satan who is described as an actual meta joke in context and whose friendship with Buu didn`t served anyone but himself until the very finale when Vegeta couldn`t buy time against Majin Buu on his own. But I guess, he`s a figther? You then talk about Kuririn and how he used to outsmart Goku well..same way he defeated Chiatzu, throught trickery and exploiting the naivety of the opponnent. Yamcha fought Goku and Tenshinhan head-on. Now sure, if the point is Kururin being one of the best tactic driven figthers of the cast, that`s true. But guess what, so was Yamcha at the time and you can`t defend Kuririn with never letting his cockiness get the better of him because, guess what, it also happened. So, that would make Kurirn a shit figther too.

By the by, Yamcha had no sword when he went at Big Ape Goku like a bull and grabbed his tail with his bare hands. Why, that almost makes an arc Finale where he saves pretty much everyone! I tought there was none! The hatred is chilling here.

Alright, I am going to give Yamcha praise for learning the kamehameha, that move Goku, Krillin and Tenshinhan learned after seeing it once. NO, Tenshinhan was playing with him and that was made perfectly clear. Which is not a problem because like I said, he is quick on his feet. Again not a problem, he is weaker and slower. No, he lost because he underestimated his opponent. That thing he always did since the beginning. No, Tenshinhan wasn't. First of all, he won his two fights before this. Second, he and Goku were mostly even until Goku took off his weights and even then he lost because of two weaknesses. That was one joke and you know it was a joke and the only one at his expense not to mention in that arc, he saves everyone against Piccolo. also in that arc krillin learns how to fly. Tell me what did Yamcha do

It`s learning and mastering it. Goku never mastered the Kamehameha first try and neither did Kuririn. Kuririn`s Kamehameha was especifically noted by Roshi to be weak and not fully realized thus it didn`t knocked out Chiatzu off the ring. What more, he did only because Yamcha had done it and believe he could pull the same gambit - and it`s shown comparitivaly that he didn`t. When Yamcha pulled it, he pulled it with assurety because he had mastered it in the course in those three years. In the 21rst Bodukai when he sees Goku and Kuririn in the prems he`s quick to assert how third place would be a given because he knows the training they took under Roshi would be on a higher level. And it was. At the 22nd Bodukai, Yamcha`s cockiness was half assured because of mastering the kamehameha and this time he wasn`t selling himself shorter. This is substained by Kuririn himself who claimed they were equals, so let`s take that note. Someone with nearly a decade of so called "non MA training" called a guy who only did it in three years his own equal.

Yamcha`s use of the Kamehameha was sold in the Manga as something big in the fight. Read the narration and stupid awe on Roshi`s lines. Read how the description marks the scene as terrifying. With Kuririn it was more like "awwwwww, close but no cigar". Goku in fact, solds it as a mere annoyance in their semi.

Ah and yes, Kururin "only" underestimated his opponents. Where have I seen that before. Against Fangs. Against Blue. Against Raditz.

Yes, it was a joke, hence the point. Toryama never made Yamcha exclusive gag material which begs the question: how can you tell whether he was hated from the beginning? logic conclusion, you can`t. You say that NOW but in the span course of the original manga you wouldn`t tell. He hated Vegeta, presumely. What you can say is how he sort of switched Kuririn for Yamcha in certain segments but appearantly that`s a no no for you because Yamcha has to be exclusive in your thesis.

Kuririn learned Air Dance. Yamcha brought a novelty in the Manga, he gave readers the first ever controllable Ki projectile. If you notice (this is me praising both, btw) they both came up with something that would shortcircuit what they lacked in the previous Tournament).

You are missing the point entirely. Yamcha is a shitty fighter because he doesn't win meaningful fights or tournaments. Stuff shitty fighters don't do. Krillin made it to the semi finals and Tenshinhan won one and made it to the semi finals. Details in all honesty do not matter when the main point remains the same. What are his real victories? Don't scrap the bottom of the barrel. Because you are picking stuff that you know are jokes. Thats the disrespect, I'm talking about. His accomplishments are literally jokes.

I`m not missing the point, I am disagreeing with your fanom logic. What are his "real victories" spell it enough for me. You`re already trying to paint his accomplishments as mere jokes when you don`t do the same for others.

The only thing you mention that I agree entirely is that Yamcha lacks a cool insert Namek scene or Cell Kikoho moment post Saiyan Arc. Where I disagree is the notion he was never awarded so up until then.

The cell jr took him out fastest. The fuck? The cell jrs were the same strength and purposely torturing them, who cares who went down first? Goku even went down. If they wanted to, they could have killed them all. Krillin being the first to go down, is no different than Freeza killing dende before he kills Vegeta. None of you are safe and I chose who gets to live.

Goku went down easy because he was hurt and exausted having fought Cell moments before. Annnnd another example you don`t care to actually debate. Cool.

I just said, it doesn't matter what Krillin said.

It was written by Toryama. Have you written any Dragonball material you want share with us?

This is a crux of the topic, if you notice. Let me disregard anything that comes with the pretty fights because it doesn`t matter and then you`re one of Goku`s fans who come in all upset how fandom generally perceives Goku as both villa-ny and a shit of a father. Guess what, that`s what you get when you fanom context out of the window. That`s how it is born.

Again, does Toryama fail to show-don`t tell with characters? Yes, that`s his biggest hit on Yamcha in the years he wrote him post Saiyan-arc. But context and backdrop are there. He told but showed little (and then when he showed something like the Cell Jrs thing, you just disregard it anyway").

Also, I know Bulma left him because he was cheating and I now its a complete nonsensical heelturn but here is the thing, Bulma and Yamcha are on and off, then when they were off, Vegeta came into picture and they never became on again. Now, what does common sense tell us. What does Yamcha's jealous ass when he talks about her baby tell us? The man who killed him kept it off.

You`re doing your own reading. According to the Cell finale Yamcha was in a new relationship by then and he was just replying when asked if that was his own kid.

Anyhow, since you`re so eager to call him a "jealous ass" I am eagarly waiting for your consideration about his maturity at being civil with vegeta, being friends with Bulma post breakup and having the balls Vegeta left behind when giving the reassuring peep talk to Future Trunks before he left.

Also, tell me how much of a "jelaous ass" he is compared to Vegeta all these years afterwards.

Toei gave him filler fights? Great, I have never spotted such obvious use of filler in my life because Yamcha was doing so well and no one even really cares. I bring those scenes up all the time when people complain about super's power scale and they say it doesn't matter.

In your own words: "Toei never cared for him". It`s not about powerscalling since Toryama used that trope plenty of times in his Manga. It`s a Shonen trope. It`s not a Toryama, Toei or Dragonall trope. I am talking of giving the character cool moments.

Maybe I should be more respectful to his fans but at some point, someone has to say what we all know.

The dude is a joke.

All you got to be is a tad objective. Give how you spent the entire debate making excuses for elementary gag elements presented in other characters and only chose to highlight one and use in detritment of said character, it shows that`s never been your concern.

You like the meme obviously a great deal more than the actual character in display but don`t espect to have a serious conversation about it when you cherrypick wat to use. That`s what fanom does.

[Olympian]

Well you sure are happy about being wrong and content with bad writing, but good for you I suppose.

Super and modern DBZ have many cases of bad writing, but Yamcha's treatment isn't one of them. He's so much more entertaining now that they acknowledge him as a joke. Yamcha was always at his best as a joke character, such as when he was a bandit who got his eyes poked and tooth knocked out by Goku, his nuts headbutted by Kami, and froze whenever he saw pretty girls.

I don't even want a balance. Full comic relief is Yamcha at his best, imo

At least you`re honest about there having been a balance in gag elements into fights that were part of almost every character`s coreography (Kuririn/Chiatzu, Kuririn/Roshi, Buu/Goku, Goku/Tenshinhan, Yamcha/Shen) and just chose not to care about it.

Kudos

[Ki Breaker]

With Jiren in the picture, Freeza finally found someone else he wants dead at all costs, good going, keep working towards that goal, as long as you don't get on Goku's bad side nobody can harm ya..

[perucho1990]

With 17 dead now Jirens chances of winning are pretty much 0 unless he somehow changes when he fights MUI Goku.

I see episode 128 ending with Goku awakening UI(like episode 115).

[Totamo]

1. But Vegeta isn't famous for crying and most shonen it parody it, can you name one time the games parody it? Yamcha has a move called playing dead in Xenoverse both games.Let that sink in

In Bodukai 2 (stage 6) if you lure Vegeta and Fat buu to the stage (supposely the same they fight in the Manga) Vegeta will just blow himself up without having o fight and Super Buu can just fly to the next stage. Pretty sure his 9000 meme has been in games before. Recently, the reassurgence of more Vegeta memes have been a thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... vibration/

This was just on Youtube`s recomendations list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xihF4J1VGQA and the "Shooting Star meme" has been a thing for some time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkibgI7BxoU

A few episodes ago Toei animated Vegeta getting beaten silly by Jiren to mimic the whole Cell beating. Now, that being said, I don`t disagree that Yamcha`s death pose is one of the biggest meme out of the work. It`s also older than most things Vegeta have done since then but certainly expect more to come around.

2. Yamcha saves them from Pilaf.......are you kidding me? Team rocket has a better track record And of course he was the one actively trying, he was the only one with a sword. Yajirobe does the exact same thing and he is not a fighter. That was Oolong, all Oolong. No, he fucking doesn't. Goku was hungry and later kicked his ass

More history revisions in order.

Goku and Yamcha ends up in a stalemate. Goku kicks one of Yamcha`s teeth out but the bandid is more concerned about his looks than he is hurt (yes, it`s gag element in a fight a Toryama standard - Goku bitting opponents anyone?) The same fight in Path of Power, the 10th year movie anniversary even has the hungry line taken out and the first fight ends the same way, with Goku being alive because Yamcha sees Bulma and leaves. Also, nice that you "shit" on Yajirobe but then mention Mr Satan who is described as an actual meta joke in context and whose friendship with Buu didn`t served anyone but himself until the very finale when Vegeta couldn`t buy time against Majin Buu on his own. But I guess, he`s a figther? You then talk about Kuririn and how he used to outsmart Goku well..same way he defeated Chiatzu, throught trickery and exploiting the naivety of the opponnent. Yamcha fought Goku and Tenshinhan head-on. Now sure, if the point is Kururin being one of the best tactic driven figthers of the cast, that`s true. But guess what, so was Yamcha at the time and you can`t defend Kuririn with never letting his cockiness get the better of him because, guess what, it also happened. So, that would make Kurirn a shit figther too.

By the by, Yamcha had no sword when he went at Big Ape Goku like a bull and grabbed his tail with his bare hands. Why, that almost makes an arc Finale where he saves pretty much everyone! I tought there was none! The hatred is chilling here.

Alright, I am going to give Yamcha praise for learning the kamehameha, that move Goku, Krillin and Tenshinhan learned after seeing it once. NO, Tenshinhan was playing with him and that was made perfectly clear. Which is not a problem because like I said, he is quick on his feet. Again not a problem, he is weaker and slower. No, he lost because he underestimated his opponent. That thing he always did since the beginning. No, Tenshinhan wasn't. First of all, he won his two fights before this. Second, he and Goku were mostly even until Goku took off his weights and even then he lost because of two weaknesses. That was one joke and you know it was a joke and the only one at his expense not to mention in that arc, he saves everyone against Piccolo. also in that arc krillin learns how to fly. Tell me what did Yamcha do

It`s learning and mastering it. Goku never mastered the Kamehameha first try and neither did Kuririn. Kuririn`s Kamehameha was especifically noted by Roshi to be weak and not fully realized thus it didn`t knocked out Chiatzu off the ring. What more, he did only because Yamcha had done it and believe he could pull the same gambit - and it`s shown comparitivaly that he didn`t. When Yamcha pulled it, he pulled it with assurety because he had mastered it in the course in those three years. In the 21rst Bodukai when he sees Goku and Kuririn in the prems he`s quick to assert how third place would be a given because he knows the training they took under Roshi would be on a higher level. And it was. At the 22nd Bodukai, Yamcha`s cockiness was half assured because of mastering the kamehameha and this time he wasn`t selling himself shorter. This is substained by Kuririn himself who claimed they were equals, so let`s take that note. Someone with nearly a decade of so called "non MA training" called a guy who only did it in three years his own equal.

Yamcha`s use of the Kamehameha was sold in the Manga as something big in the fight. Read the narration and stupid awe on Roshi`s lines. Read how the description marks the scene as terrifying. With Kuririn it was more like "awwwwww, close but no cigar". Goku in fact, solds it as a mere annoyance in their semi.

Ah and yes, Kururin "only" underestimated his opponents. Where have I seen that before. Against Fangs. Against Blue. Against Raditz.

Yes, it was a joke, hence the point. Toryama never made Yamcha exclusive gag material which begs the question: how can you tell whether he was hated from the beginning? logic conclusion, you can`t. You say that NOW but in the span course of the original manga you wouldn`t tell. He hated Vegeta, presumely. What you can say is how he sort of switched Kuririn for Yamcha in certain segments but appearantly that`s a no no for you because Yamcha has to be exclusive in your thesis.

Kuririn learned Air Dance. Yamcha brought a novelty in the Manga, he gave readers the first ever controllable Ki projectile. If you notice (this is me praising both, btw) they both came up with something that would shortcircuit what they lacked in the previous Tournament).

You are missing the point entirely. Yamcha is a shitty fighter because he doesn't win meaningful fights or tournaments. Stuff shitty fighters don't do. Krillin made it to the semi finals and Tenshinhan won one and made it to the semi finals. Details in all honesty do not matter when the main point remains the same. What are his real victories? Don't scrap the bottom of the barrel. Because you are picking stuff that you know are jokes. Thats the disrespect, I'm talking about. His accomplishments are literally jokes.

I`m not missing the point, I am disagreeing with your fanom logic. What are his "real victories" spell it enough for me. You`re already trying to paint his accomplishments as mere jokes when you don`t do the same for others.

The only thing you mention that I agree entirely is that Yamcha lacks a cool insert Namek scene or Cell Kikoho moment post Saiyan Arc. Where I disagree is the notion he was never awarded so up until then.

The cell jr took him out fastest. The fuck? The cell jrs were the same strength and purposely torturing them, who cares who went down first? Goku even went down. If they wanted to, they could have killed them all. Krillin being the first to go down, is no different than Freeza killing dende before he kills Vegeta. None of you are safe and I chose who gets to live.

Goku went down easy because he was hurt and exausted having fought Cell moments before. Annnnd another example you don`t care to actually debate. Cool.

I just said, it doesn't matter what Krillin said.

It was written by Toryama. Have you written any Dragonball material you want share with us?

This is a crux of the topic, if you notice. Let me disregard anything that comes with the pretty fights because it doesn`t matter and then you`re one of Goku`s fans who come in all upset how fandom generally perceives Goku as both villa-ny and a shit of a father. Guess what, that`s what you get when you fanom context out of the window. That`s how it is born.

Again, does Toryama fail to show-don`t tell with characters? Yes, that`s his biggest hit on Yamcha in the years he wrote him post Saiyan-arc. But context and backdrop are there. He told but showed little (and then when he showed something like the Cell Jrs thing, you just disregard it anyway").

Also, I know Bulma left him because he was cheating and I now its a complete nonsensical heelturn but here is the thing, Bulma and Yamcha are on and off, then when they were off, Vegeta came into picture and they never became on again. Now, what does common sense tell us. What does Yamcha's jealous ass when he talks about her baby tell us? The man who killed him kept it off.

You`re doing your own reading. According to the Cell finale Yamcha was in a new relationship by then and he was just replying when asked if that was his own kid.

Anyhow, since you`re so eager to call him a "jealous ass" I am eagarly waiting for your consideration about his maturity at being civil with vegeta, being friends with Bulma post breakup and having the balls Vegeta left behind when giving the reassuring peep talk to Future Trunks before he left.

Also, tell me how much of a "jelaous ass" he is compared to Vegeta all these years afterwards.

Toei gave him filler fights? Great, I have never spotted such obvious use of filler in my life because Yamcha was doing so well and no one even really cares. I bring those scenes up all the time when people complain about super's power scale and they say it doesn't matter.

In your own words: "Toei never cared for him". It`s not about powerscalling since Toryama used that trope plenty of times in his Manga. It`s a Shonen trope. It`s not a Toryama, Toei or Dragonall trope. I am talking of giving the character cool moments.

Maybe I should be more respectful to his fans but at some point, someone has to say what we all know.

The dude is a joke.

All you got to be is a tad objective. Give how you spent the entire debate making excuses for elementary gag elements presented in other characters and only chose to highlight one and use in detritment of said character, it shows that`s never been your concern.

You like the meme obviously a great deal more than the actual character in display but don`t espect to have a serious conversation about it when you cherrypick wat to use. That`s what fanom does.

1. I thought you said Vegeta crying was the meme. You know because it makes him look like a fool.

2.How was that a stalemate? Goku was the only one who got a hit in and Yamcha was on the ground. Plus He ran away. That movie is noncanon and You know it so why the hell are you using that as proof?

3. Hercule isn't a fighter and I never said he was but the fact remains that he did save the world not just with Buu but by encouraging the world to give energy to Goku. What did Yamcha do in the Buu saga?

4. Yamcha fought them head on and he lost fights, Krillin used his intelligence and he won fights. Who is the better fighter? The won who wins. And its funny how you say I let Krillin's cockiness go but you also have seem to let Yamcha's cockiness go. I didn't even bring those up

5. What the.... Tien tanked it like it was nothing and Goku's kamehameha was on par with Roshi so how did Goku not master the kamehameha before Yamcha did when his actually did something? Krillin's also hurt Chaiotzu and he was insulting Yamcha by performing it basically saying if Yamcha can do it so can I and he does and his actually harmed his opponent. Sure Chaiozu is way way weaker than Tien but the point stands, Krillin pulled it off once as did Goku while Yamcha had to learn it over time.

You can't use dialogue that contradicts the visuals of what is being told. Thats not how manga reading works and its not how anime watching works either. Dragon ball is not a book, its a manga.

6. I just told you its hindsight I'm using. We can do this for all of the characters if you like but this will only make Yamcha look worse than before.

7. I have never been angry at the Goku is a villain or a shitty father trope because it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the character. I have even straight up said Goku isn't a hero and hindsight on dragon ball can prove that.

8. Context only matters when it doesn't contradict what is being shown. No one in the fandom can say Vegeta was smart in the Cell saga even with context because it all gets blast to the wall when you realize what it all leads to.

9. He wasn't civil with Vegeta, he barely spoke to Vegeta because Yamcha took Goku back to his house and stayed their for most of the saga. I don't see how that was courageous, Vegeta was an asshole back then and probably would have insulted the boy. Also Post friends with Bulma....I know several of my friends who are jealous of their past flings that are friends with them and even then the interactions are so miniscule. What girlfriend? We never see her!!!

10. I never once said Toei never cared for him, I said Toei has maximize on the Yamcha meme and thats not something you can deny.

11. I made no excuse for gags of other characters when it comes to joke fights. The problem is, Yamcha's victories come form Joke fights. I don't even count any of Goku's victories in the Fortune teller Baba arc up until Grandpa Gohan because of them. Dragon ball was a gag manga for a good bit and a lot of the fights can't be taken seriously.


12. how about we agree to disagree, ok?

[fadeddreams5]

Why are they all even fighting Jiren? Some of them should be running away until the time runs out...

[Ki Breaker]

Why are they all even fighting Jiren? Some of them should be running away until the time runs out...

If you can, then you must!

[HeroR]

Why are they all even fighting Jiren? Some of them should be running away until the time runs out...

If you can, then you must!

Run where? There isn't much of the stage left to run and hide and Jiren can just nuked them off the stage if they do try to run.

[Ki Breaker]

Why are they all even fighting Jiren? Some of them should be running away until the time runs out...

If you can, then you must!

Run where? There isn't much of the stage left to run and hide and Jiren can just nuked them off the stage if they do try to run.

17 was running all over the place the entire time he was on stage, so why not?

Not that I support running away, would much rather have Goku IT him outta the ring with himself, it's not like Goku has any problems touching Jiren right now..

[HeroR]

If you can, then you must!

Run where? There isn't much of the stage left to run and hide and Jiren can just nuked them off the stage if they do try to run.

17 was running all over the place the entire time he was on stage, so why not?

Not that I support running away, would much rather have Goku IT him outta the ring with himself, it's not like Goku has any problems touching Jiren right now..

And he only survived because Goku and Vegeta were helping him, and that was less than a minute.