Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Where? in FnF? i dont recall this, i just checked it as well, would you mind posting said panel

I'm sorry. I don't know where this is from

http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/102/2749/061.png

They never made the distinction on the movie,

Well the manga has its own continuity.

the point was goku absorbed the SSG power into himself they never emphasized his base form

How else was he able to compete with Final Form Frieza in Base, without transforming into SSG though? Frieza trained and became incredibly strong. FIRST FORM Frieza turned Super Saiyan Gohan into swiss cheese in the anime, and I see no reason to think his power level was different in the manga. And Base Goku in BoG was still weaker than Final Form Frieza. Frieza had incredible gains and he was a bigger prodigy than Goku, so I don't see how Goku would have been able to keep up with Frieza without SSG power.

The only way to reconcile everything with the Super manga is if Goku transformed into SSG against Frieza.

Their base forms in the manga are probably stronger than Freeza by now, but I wouldn't put them above early Android Saga Saiyan's, post-fusion Kamiccolo at very best.

I'd consider that a huge boost given that Goku and Vegeta's bases would have had to get an at least x50 increase since Namek, which is equal to when they first got SS. But apart from that I agree.

[Hugo Boss]

Why did Goku not use SSG in RoF if he has SSG power in Base?

He didn't need to go SS. He probably wouldn't need to go SSG.

It seems that being trained by Whis, the master of the God of Destruction, is such a big deal that Goku doesn't need to go very far to handle the enhanced Final Form Freeza. In the end, it doesn't matter, because Golden Freeza was still stronger than SSB Goku when they fought.

I guess the divergence is in the "absorbed the power of SSG"-part. Why should it be in a specific form? Even if Goku isn't quite as strong as SSG (vs. Beerus) when he is normal or becomes a SS, it doesn't mean SSG isn't there if he needs to use it.

Also, I think it's plausible that Goku can get stronger as a SSG, since he aparently does so as a SSB. Then, SSG Goku (vs. Hit) could be more powerful than the one who fought Beerus.

[Cabba]

I doubt it, Piccolo's still stronger than them in Base Form given his performance against Frost in the manga, a continuity where he's treated like worthless fodder with no mention of any training with him and Gohan or any noticeable strength improvement. Gohan's whole development from the anime also isn't present in the manga where they talk about him twice and there's nothing on him training unlike the anime where Goku thinks he's slacking off but finds out he's not afterward. Not in the manga.

and you base this on what exactly?
Piccolo had no chance of winning against frost even on the manga against a worn out frost. Goku could just as well fight him in base form and win but he could not afford the luxury of wasting stamina this way when he had other fights next, the smartest thing would be to dominate him as SS which he did. Nothing at all implies Goku couldn't fight frost in his base form, he just pushed him to do his final form using his SS transformation

Their base forms in the manga are probably stronger than Freeza by now, but I wouldn't put them above early Android Saga Saiyan's, post-fusion Kamiccolo at very best.

This is preposterous, this will be proved wrong again and again in coming chapters.
about the rest, we´ll see what happens when Gohan is introduced in the Future Trunks arc

There is no real answer for that. The Daizenshuu are supplementary guide books which not only repeat what you see in the main source material but also expand on the world of Dragon Ball. It's oficially a product involved with almost every aspect there is to see about this story. So, it has the value you want it to have. Disregard it if you want, I will use them as back-up if I wish so. You probably don't think it's important to debate over it, because that information goes against your opinion.

I'm not saying it has not value, I'm glad you see there is no black and white here. I guess my point was to state they shouldn't be taken as gospel either, like if it says on the prop material there is no challenging
Akiras mind itself changes on important factors, whats to say something that was aproved for these magazines and guidebooks could not be forgotten/discarded

With Goten, Trunks builded his strength up similar to Gohan in the RoSaT. The difference is that they fought a lot while they were much younger than Trunks in the future and mastered Super Saiyan. Fighting as Super Saiyans must have increased their power very quickly, as it did with Gohan and Goku

Future Trunks had just as many years if not more to do this with Gohan. Future Trunks was definitely older than 10 when Gohan died vs 8 year old ss trunks
My point is Future Trunks had all the right circumstances or better to equal or surpass his present self at the same age, but he didn't because of the context/saga he was introduced in (when SS was still a bid deal)

[Chiki]

Why did Goku not use SSG in RoF if he has SSG power in Base?

He didn't need to go SS. He probably wouldn't need to go SSG.

It seems that being trained by Whis, the master of the God of Destruction, is such a big deal that Goku doesn't need to go very far to handle the enhanced Final Form Freeza. In the end, it doesn't matter, because Golden Freeza was still stronger than SSB Goku when they fought.

I guess the divergence is in the "absorbed the power of SSG"-part. Why should it be in a specific form? Even if Goku isn't quite as strong as SSG (vs. Beerus) when he is normal or becomes a SS, it doesn't mean SSG power isn't there if he needs to use it.

Also, I think it's plausible that Goku can get stronger as a SSG, since he aparently does so as a SSB. Then, SSG Goku (vs. Hit) could be more powerful than the one who fought Beerus.

If it's such a big deal to be trained by Whis, then why did Vegeta (equal to Goku) struggle with Cabba in Base, who didn't train with Vados?

[Cabba]

Where? in FnF? i dont recall this, i just checked it as well, would you mind posting said panel

I'm sorry. I don't know where this is from
http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/102/2749/061.png

You are right it does appear on the manga, but on the same manga Base goku fights and edges final form frieza
Another possibility I'm thinking is base the difference between base and SSG not being as drastic as in BoGs

Well the manga has its own continuity.

But I'm saying the manga does not contradict the movie, the movie never specified how goku would have to use this absorbed god power. Just that it was inside him

How else was he able to compete with Final Form Frieza in Base, without transforming into SSG though? Frieza trained and became incredibly strong. FIRST FORM Frieza turned Super Saiyan Gohan into swiss cheese in the anime, and I see no reason to think his power level was different in the manga. And Base Goku in BoG was still weaker than Final Form Frieza. Frieza had incredible gains and he was a bigger prodigy than Goku, so I don't see how Goku would have been able to keep up with Frieza without SSG power.
The only way to reconcile everything with the Super manga is if Goku transformed into SSG against Frieza.

There are three ways to go around it
1. The manga/anime of FnF got retconned in super manga which I'm not so confident it happened
2. Goku has God powers in his base form, he gets more powerful with SSG like a middle point between SS and SSB. So the difference between SSG and Base/SS is not as drastic as it was in BoG.
3. Middle Ground: Base Goku and Vegeta are bare minimum mystic gohan tier. They were trained in their base forms all this time by whis, he made an emphasis of this and akira as well about mastering base and SS forms

If it's such a big deal to be trained by Whis, then why did Vegeta (equal to Goku) struggle with Cabba in Base, who didn't train with Vados?

It is a big deal, a point was made that Vegeta needed whis training to equal post SSG absortion Goku. Whats to say however that cabba training and fights were not on the right track, i dont understand why some assume cabba is a weakling
Hit was not trained by Whis either

[Hugo Boss]

With Goten, Trunks builded his strength up similar to Gohan in the RoSaT. The difference is that they fought a lot while they were much younger than Trunks in the future and mastered Super Saiyan. Fighting as Super Saiyans must have increased their power very quickly, as it did with Gohan and Goku

Future Trunks had just as many years if not more to do this with Gohan. Future Trunks was definitely older than 10 when Gohan died vs 8 year old ss trunks
My point is Future Trunks had all the right circumstances or better to equal or surpass his present self at the same age, but he didn't because of the context/saga he was introduced in (when SS was still a bid deal)

It's not about how long he spent training, it's about what they accomplished. You are right, Trunks in the future was older when we see he training to become a Super Saiyan and it wasn't until Goku left RoSaT he realized Super Saiyan can get much much stronger if he eliminates the stress. Trunks in the main timeline started much soon and he had Goten as a rival. They realized together how to make Super Saiyan easy to attain. It was a such a big deal, that Gohan and Vegeta were very impressed.

[Chiki]

But I'm saying the manga does not contradict the movie

But the manga already contradicts the anime in multiple ways. I don't think them contradicting each other is a big deal anymore.

. Goku has God powers in his base form, he gets more powerful with SSG like a middle point between SS and SSB. So the difference between SSG and Base/SS is not as drastic as it was in BoG.

Vegeta is equal to you in Base, though, when he fought you (:P) in the tournament. Cabba is nowhere near SSG level.

Middle Ground: Base Goku and Vegeta are bare minimum mystic gohan tier. They were trained in their base forms all this time by whis, he made an emphasis of this and akira as well about mastering base and SS forms

How did Cabba even reach Mystic Gohan level without special training though? Vegeta even says he's surprised Cabba was able to even survive on the battlefield.

[Hugo Boss]

If it's such a big deal to be trained by Whis, then why did Vegeta (equal to Goku) struggle with Cabba in Base, who didn't train with Vados?

Vegeta was the strongest between the two. He didn't exactly struggle with Cabba, it was more that Cabba was able to keep up with him a bit, both in Base and as a SS. Vegeta actually struggled against Magetta.

[Cabba]

It's not about how long he spent training, it's about what they accomplished. You are right, Trunks in the future was older when we see he training to become a Super Saiyan and it wasn't until Goku left RoSaT he realized Super Saiyan can get much much stronger if he eliminates the stress. Trunks in the main timeline started much soon and he had Goten as a rival. They realized together how to make Super Saiyan easy to attain. It was a such a big deal, that Gohan and Vegeta were very impressed.

This is what I'm challenging, why do you assume Future Trunks did not start his training very early on, possibly even earlier than present trunks due to the critical situation of earth? and why would the kids discover this easy way to transform and future trunks and gohan wouldn't?

But the manga already contradicts the anime in multiple ways. I don't think them contradicting each other is a big deal anymore.

The main elements/concepts dont get contradited is what I'm saying, and it is still way too early to tell wether Goku/Vegeta have god powers on their base forms or not

Vegeta is equal to you in Base, though, when he fought you (:P) in the tournament. Cabba is nowhere near SSG level.

haha finally someone did it thanks for acknowledging me
On bold: Why not? whats the thought process to claim this? Cabba race evolution and cabba itself could be special (he was chosen as the saiyan representative of 6th universe after all)

How did Cabba even reach Mystic Gohan level without special training though? Vegeta even says he's surprised Cabba was able to even survive on the battlefield.

Again why not? how could Hit reach near SSB level without special training? and who is to say Cabba did not have proper training and impressive foes to fight?
Vegeta also says "In your current sate you should be able to hold your own against me the way i am now"- The later could be attributed to Vegeta acting evil on purpose to make him transfrom SS

[ekrolo2]

I doubt it, Piccolo's still stronger than them in Base Form given his performance against Frost in the manga, a continuity where he's treated like worthless fodder with no mention of any training with him and Gohan or any noticeable strength improvement. Gohan's whole development from the anime also isn't present in the manga where they talk about him twice and there's nothing on him training unlike the anime where Goku thinks he's slacking off but finds out he's not afterward. Not in the manga.

and you base this on what exactly?
Piccolo had no chance of winning against frost even on the manga against a worn out frost. Goku could just as well fight him in base form and win but he could not afford the luxury of wasting stamina this way when he had other fights next, the smartest thing would be to dominate him as SS which he did. Nothing at all implies Goku couldn't fight frost in his base form, he just pushed him to do his final form using his SS transformation

I base it on the fact Piccolo can take on a guy Goku needed to use Super Saiyan on, if Goku didn't need to use it, he would've reverted back to his base form but he didn't, in-spite of having a massive strength advantage he still needed it. There's also the fact Vegeta needed it to take out a heavily worn down Frost to finally beat him. And before you try to say this is Vegeta being cathartic, whats a bigger fuck you to "Freeza" in this case, being taken out by a Super Saiyan or not being worth even using Super Saiyan on?

Piccolo is stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta, the fact the latter still needed Super Saiyan to beat down a battered down Frost implies as much. And since Piccolo is treated like worthless fodder meant to merely soften Frost up but still ultimately fail, I'd say that says something about Goku & Vegeta's base powers when the worthless fodder is still stronger than them.

[Cabba]

I guess the divergence is in the "absorbed the power of SSG"-part. Why should it be in a specific form? Even if Goku isn't quite as strong as SSG (vs. Beerus) when he is normal or becomes a SS, it doesn't mean SSG isn't there if he needs to use it.
Also, I think it's plausible that Goku can get stronger as a SSG, since he apparently does so as a SSB. Then, SSG Goku (vs. Hit) could be more powerful than the one who fought Beerus.

This theory i like, not only because i like it, but also because it has the most sense and maintains continuity somewhat

I base it on the fact Piccolo can take on a guy Goku needed to use Super Saiyan on

and how do you know goku couldn't take on the guy?

if Goku didn't need to use it, he would've reverted back to his base form but he didn't, in-spite of having a massive strength advantage he still needed it.

1. Piccolo had no chance of winning against frost on the manga
2. Already explained why he would go SS. Goku was trying to save the most energy for the next fight especially for Hit this is empathized on one of the panels. It doesnt make sense to fight it out with frost in his base form wasting precious stamina when he could just one shot him as SS

There's also the fact Vegeta needed it to take out a heavily worn down Frost to finally beat him. And before you try to say this is Vegeta being cathartic, whats a bigger fuck you to "Freeza" in this case, being taken out by a Super Saiyan or not being worth even using Super Saiyan on?

Vegeta wanted to one shot him, he couldn't do this on his base form, he did not want to waste any time with the guy. He would need to give him a chance to fight in his base form which he clearly did not want to, he wanted to destroy him in combat

Piccolo is stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta, the fact the latter still needed Super Saiyan to beat down a battered down Frost implies as much.

Is not needed, needed would be them struggling as SS, they turn SS to take him down with ease and not waste any stamina

[ekrolo2]

I guess the divergence is in the "absorbed the power of SSG"-part. Why should it be in a specific form? Even if Goku isn't quite as strong as SSG (vs. Beerus) when he is normal or becomes a SS, it doesn't mean SSG isn't there if he needs to use it.
Also, I think it's plausible that Goku can get stronger as a SSG, since he apparently does so as a SSB. Then, SSG Goku (vs. Hit) could be more powerful than the one who fought Beerus.

This theory i like, not only because i like it, but also because it has the most sense and maintains continuity somewhat

I base it on the fact Piccolo can take on a guy Goku needed to use Super Saiyan on,and how do you know goku couldn't take on the guy?
if Goku didn't need to use it, he would've reverted back to his base form but he didn't, in-spite of having a massive strength advantage he still needed it.
1. Piccolo had no chance of winning against frost on the manga
2. Already explained why he would go SS. Goku was trying to save the most energy for the next fight especially for Hit this is empathized on one of the panels. It doesnt make sense to fight it out with frost in his base form wasting precious stamina when he could just one shot him

There's also the fact Vegeta needed it to take out a heavily worn down Frost to finally beat him. And before you try to say this is Vegeta being cathartic, whats a bigger fuck you to "Freeza" in this case, being taken out by a Super Saiyan or not being worth even using Super Saiyan on?

Vegeta wanted to one shot him, he couldn't do this on his base form, he did not want to waste any time with the guy. He would need to give him a chance to fight in his base form which he clearly did not want to, he wanted to destroy him in combat

Piccolo is stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta, the fact the latter still needed Super Saiyan to beat down a battered down Frost implies as much.

Is not needed, needed would be them struggling as SS, they turn SS to take him down with ease and not waste any stamina

It clearly is if he HAS to transform to beat an already heavily worn out Frost, if you want to use absolutely no stamina, use your base form. Frost is done at this point, beyond done, yet Vegeta still feels the need to use Super Saiyan to land the finishing blow. Its not even like the anime where Vegeta ACTUALLY one shots Frost, he messed around with him for a little bit then proceeds to finally beat him.

[Cabba]

It clearly is if he HAS to transform to beat an already heavily worn out Frost, if you want to use absolutely no stamina, use your base form. Frost is done at this point, beyond done, yet Vegeta still feels the need to use Super Saiyan to land the finishing blow. Its not even like the anime where Vegeta ACTUALLY one shots Frost, he messed around with him for a little bit then proceeds to finally beat him.

He could, but it would take more time to beat him in his base form than just take care of him in seconds, he finishes in 2 blows in the manga
The simple answer is he could not beat frost as fast as he could a SS

[Chiki]

Vegeta was the strongest between the two. He didn't exactly struggle with Cabba, it was more that Cabba was able to keep up with him a bit, both in Base and as a SS. Vegeta actually struggled against Magetta.

Yes, he definitely has some advantage over Cabba, but as Vegeta said, Cabba can hold his own against Vegeta:

http://img.mymanga.me/5043479691121569724409815006.png

This implies that the gap in power is small. You said training with Whis is a huge deal. So I repeat, how did Cabba get so strong without Vados's help? And if he is so strong, why did Vegeta say "how did you survive in a battlefield?"

The main elements/concepts dont get contradited is what I'm saying, and it is still way too early to tell wether Goku/Vegeta have god powers on their base forms or not

But Kaioken x10 is a major element right? If that's not a major element, then neither is Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.

On bold: Why not? whats the thought process to claim this? Cabba race evolution and cabba itself could be special (he was chosen as the saiyan representative of 6th universe after all)

Vegeta says "how could you have survived on the battlefield?!"

http://img.mymanga.me/7435700515531022751411259299.png

[ekrolo2]

It clearly is if he HAS to transform to beat an already heavily worn out Frost, if you want to use absolutely no stamina, use your base form. Frost is done at this point, beyond done, yet Vegeta still feels the need to use Super Saiyan to land the finishing blow. Its not even like the anime where Vegeta ACTUALLY one shots Frost, he messed around with him for a little bit then proceeds to finally beat him.

He could, but it would take more time to beat him in his base form than just take care of him in seconds, he finishes in 2 blows in the manga
The simple answer is he could not beat frost as fast as he could a SS

Which adds to what I said before: Piccolo is stronger than Base Saiyan's, how much is up for debate but since Vegeta still needs SS to beat down a guy who's on the verge of keeling over if you so much as tap him the right way, that says something about their base strength. Especially since Piccolo in the manga takes on Frost fairly evenly and tires him out to the point where Frost had to resort to poison to definitively win the match.

[Cabba]

But Kaioken x10 is a major element right? If that's not a major element, then neither is Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.

Good point, i will rephrase that to main plot concepts then instead

http://img.mymanga.me/7435700515531022751411259299.png

I covered this on my previous post. This was just vegeta being evil on purpose to draw his SS transformation
Vegeta also said he could stand his own against him on his base form, Vegetas pride wouldn't allow him to small talk his own base form like that

Which adds to what I said before: Piccolo is stronger than Base Saiyan's, how much is up for debate but since Vegeta still needs SS to beat down a guy who's on the verge of keeling over if you so much as tap him the right way, that says something about their base strength. Especially since Piccolo in the manga takes on Frost fairly evenly and tires him out to the point where Frost had to resort to poison to definitively win the match.

How does it add to that? did you read it correctly?
1. Piccolo has zero chance of beating frost [spoiler][/spoiler]
2. Base Goku and Vegeta would have to take more time to beat frost in their base form

Its like you made this conjecture in your mind that they could not take frost in their base form, just because they decided to end things quickly as SS

[Chiki]

But Kaioken x10 is a major element right? If that's not a major element, then neither is Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.

Good point, i would rephrase that to main plot concepts then instead

http://img.mymanga.me/7435700515531022751411259299.png

I covered this on my previous post. This was just vegeta being evil on purpose to draw his SS transformation
Vegeta also said he could stand his own against him on his base form, Vegetas pride wouldn't allow him to small talk his own base form like that

I'd still say that Kaioken x10 is a major plot element, heck I think it's much more important than Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.

It's not evil to say "I can't believe you survived on the battlefield." Not at all. I see no reason for him to lie there.

[Cabba]

I'd still say that Kaioken x10 is a major plot element, heck I think it's much more important than Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.
It's not evil to say "I can't believe you survived on the battlefield." Not at all. I see no reason for him to lie there.

What i mean by that is the plot story, the villains and the pyramid of power. Who fights who and such
About the other one, yes is pushing him on edge with all the bad talk, like he is nothing, he is surprised a weakling like him survive. Maybe i phrase it wrong but the idea is for Vegeta to say false things to him so that he transforms

[ekrolo2]

But Kaioken x10 is a major element right? If that's not a major element, then neither is Goku using SSG instead of Base in RoF.

Good point, i will rephrase that to main plot concepts then instead

http://img.mymanga.me/7435700515531022751411259299.png

I covered this on my previous post. This was just vegeta being evil on purpose to draw his SS transformation
Vegeta also said he could stand his own against him on his base form, Vegetas pride wouldn't allow him to small talk his own base form like that

Which adds to what I said before: Piccolo is stronger than Base Saiyan's, how much is up for debate but since Vegeta still needs SS to beat down a guy who's on the verge of keeling over if you so much as tap him the right way, that says something about their base strength. Especially since Piccolo in the manga takes on Frost fairly evenly and tires him out to the point where Frost had to resort to poison to definitively win the match.

How does it add to that? did you read it correctly?
1. Piccolo has zero chance of beating frost [spoiler][/spoiler]
2. Base Goku and Vegeta would have to take more time to beat frost in their base form

Its like you made this conjecture in your mind that they could not take frost in their base form, just because they decided to end things quickly as SS

And then Piccolo proceeds to prove them wrong by taking Frost on fairly evenly, he's still losing as they comment that Piccolo's getting tired first but its nowhere near the massive chasm of a difference as everyone is making it out to be from dialogue. Piccolo proves to be a fairly tough match for Frost as he only got done in by his poison. Hell, Piccolo fares better against Frost in the manga than in the anime, in the anime he's totally screwed from the start, here? He's almost on par with Frost. If he wasn't around Frosts level, he'd have gotten one shotted.

As for the conjecture thing, well yeah. Its the same reason why I don't think Vegetto can rape Bootenks in base, the fact he immediately turned Super Saiyan to curb stomp Boohan (who isn't much stronger than Bootenks with the boys fusion gone) says as much. Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat Frost, how much of SSs power he needed is probably not much but to outright ignore the fact he still needed any power increase at all to beat Frost who's beaten to shit clearly tells us something about his Base power.

So yeah, Piccolo takes on Frost fairly evenly while the Freeza rehash is still in pretty good condition yet Vegeta needs SS to beat him after he's gone through two matches and is tired as hell. If that doesn't say something, then I'm clearly nuts.

[Lord Beerus]

According to Herms:

Black: "I want to know more about Goku. That way, I'll become even stronger."

So it would seem that Goku's Black strength is determined by how much he knows about how strong Present Goku is.