Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

going by this logic Base Goku is able to hold a fight against beerus

You don't have to take the parts that contradict it, duh.

This is what i would like to avoid, making absolute claims based on absolute opinions

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Beerus says that Goku cannot beat Frieza without transforming, King Kai says that's correct. So there is no opinion here, it's just a fact. Sorry.

Becuase maybe Cabba did not experience the rage required until that point in his life, because the SS transformation is not everything (elders words)

But you don't need rage to transform into SS if you're a prodigy like Goten and Trunks.

Besides transforming SS early on, the kids have not shown any prodigy behavior or progress for that matter

Yes they have. The author (did he say it or did a guidebook say it? whatever) said himself that Saiyans born without a tail were the greatest prodigies. If Cabba is in the same vein as Goten and Trunks, then why can't he go Super Saiyan too?

Why is Hit so powerful? because thats the way it is right, why is it reasonable to expect SSB level from Hit and SS3+ level cabba is unthinkable?

Hit is a super-ultra-mega-prodigy just like Frieza, that's why.

[HeroR]

I think part of it is because the levels in the Buu Saga was the official peak for the characters for almost thirty years. Basically, Gohan was the strongest unfused character, Super Buu with all the people he absorbed was the strongest villain, and Vegetto was the he strongest character, period. So, to have what was considered the peak be render so last season by new material after all this time is something some fans can't deal with, since a certain level of bias and favoritism has been build. If Super's storylines happened within the continuity of the original manga run, I certain we wouldn't have so much resistance.

It was ill adviced to assume those were the peaks in the first place,if there's been a recurring theme in DBZ is that there are no limits, that saiyans have unlimited power
EoZ at the time was open ended with base goku being on bu tier level and he went on to train with ub, to define or expect some hard defined limits was asinine from the get go, the creator made a point at the time of goku continuing training to prepare for future threats and left it open ended on purpose

Before BOG, you couldn't say that any character was stronger than Ultimate Gohan, or Goku got much stronger in ten years. And anyone stronger than Vegetto, blasphemy!

[ekrolo2]

Hit has a good reason for being so strong: he's a thousand years old and he's physically active still. He's probably the only member of the U6 team who's level of strength makes sense.

[LightBing]

Hit has a good reason for being so strong: he's a thousand years old and he's physically active still. He's probably the only member of the U6 team who's level of strength makes sense.

That's interesting to think about. I agree with you regarding Hit, add to that the Assassin job. My following thoughts are all based on the manga continuity.

Botamo: He's kinda of "weak". Being completely dominated by Base Goku. Maybe Android tier? We have no backstory on him, assuming he's a prodigy it's very reasonable that he got there.

Frost: A freak like Freeza. Stronger than his Universe 7 counterpart because he actually does something, instead of hovering around in a chair.

Magetta: I might be the only one thinking this; he isn't that strong. I have him as the second weakest, only above Botamo. He's just the tank! Vegeta started fighting him in base, compare that to Hit where he went to SSJB from the get go. During the fight he only went SSJ when trying to lift him.
His ability to survive much stronger opponents doesn't equal power.
Again, he's a weird alien. Is it that unlikely to get to SSJ level? We don't have much backstory...

Cabba: This one is interesting, a Saiyan who never went SSJ. I'll start by his lack of tail. I see that as an evolution, which Trunks and Goten already display. My theory, because they have the SSJ gene. So I'll assume from the get go, that Universe 6 Saiyans are already more than 10 times stronger than Universe 7 Saiyans, not SSJ gene but a different route which trumps the Oozaru. Add to that Cabba being one of the prodigy's, constantly fighting and going to places. Even if he's opponents are much weaker and it's not that unreasonable.
It's as if Gohan never discovered SSJ and only trained base, without any mastering SSJ and stuff like that.

I disagree that their level of strength doesn't make sense. If you can have prodigy's like Piccolo and Goku, or freaks like Freeza in our Universe. Why can't it exist in Universe 6? It's five guys, who are supposed to be the best of the best. Vados didn't pick the first guys she saw on the street.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Cabba being unable to have power above Freeza's is just a limit created by certain fans. Most of the U6 being pathetically weak is because people just hate the idea of some random guys being so powerful. I really don't see why this is an issue in a series with Androids.

Define "weak". All of the U6 fighters seem to be above 1 million, which is really extraordinary for U7.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

[HeroR]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

Pretty much. Also, what is considered 'strong' or 'extraordinary' in U7, doesn't mean it's those things in U6. From the little we have seen, someone of Namek Saga Freeza's level would be considered a joke in U6, yet Freeza remained the strongest mortal and natural fighting in U7 until Super Saiyan Goku came out of nowhere. Cell was created in a test tube and Buu is an ancient evil as old as the universe.

[Bullza]

Frieza believed Captain Ginyu to be one of the strongest beings in the universe and he only had a power level of 120,000.

[ssbgoku]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare. Here is my thought out proof of my counter argument:

Making it as easy and short as possible, let's gather what we know first:

1) Master Roshi mentioned vegeta finally suprassing goku
2) Heavily supressed beerus called enraged mutation vegeta more fun then with other Saiyan(reference to his fight with ssj3 goku)
3) Goku who was watching vegeta's rage against beerus was impressed and praised him for suprassing him.

So, what we know Enraged vegeta was at least above ssj3 goku, which means above post rosat ss gotenks buu arc. Now taking in consideration how goku is straight forward and easy going person he always say what he has on his mind/head, so eariler after encountering and having short duel with beerus, goku was not just impressed by glimpse of beerus's power but even mentioned fusion wouldn't work on him.(buu arc ss vegetto), wether he meant ss vegetto as we have seen him or full power is up to speculation, but more shows to fp. Now we know that goku only claimed enraged vegeta suprassed him, but nothing he said about fusion, which means fusion as potara fusion would still beat enraged vegeta.

10% beerus > ss vegetto bog arc > ss vegetto buu arc > enraged vegeta > bog ss3 goku
10% beerus > combined ki failed ritual ss goku

combined ki failed ritual ss goku =? ss vegetto

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

so: buu arc ss vegetto > enraged vegeta > base goku/vegeta/Cabba or Frost or magenta(not full powered).

Of course ss vegetto is not by any degree weak opponent. To be honset I see ss goku/vegeta being less or more equal to full power ss vegetto(buu arc or bog arc)

[Chiki]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

That's a completely ridiculous claim. GINYU of all people was considered one of the strongest people in the universe by Frieza.

U6 has incredibly impressive power levels even if they're all around SPC level.

[Cabba]

You don't have to take the parts that contradict it, duh.

You just said we should take them as the same, you are seeing the contradictions you want to see i.e over complicating things
So far the contradiction you presented was Cabba having to be weak just because, thats not a contradiction, thats not a fundament, thats just an opinion

Cherry picking a line exclusive to the movie which emphasized gokus base power being able to hold a fight with beerus is asinine. I suggest caution, lets not get ahead of our self, the next manga chapters will clear up a lot of things
As far as the anime is concerned Goku and Vegeta beyond doubt can carelessly take out a SS3 gotenks

Beerus says that Goku cannot beat Frieza without transforming, King Kai says that's correct. So there is no opinion here, it's just a fact. Sorry.

You dont need to be sorry, no offense was taken
Bold: Is your opinion, you interpretation
Beerus just told him: In your current state i dont think you could. His current state being a non powered up form
Beerus knew about his SS transformation Whis showed him early on, so he asked about that because he knows SS>Base. There is no point for beerus to ask him about his powered up base form for 2 reasons
1. Gokus power is worthless to him, so he better jump to his strongest form, in fact he wanted to see his god form which he did not have
2. As far as what beerus is concerned, he had to turn SS to beat fireza in the flash back whis showed him, he didnt know anything else about goku besides that

But you don't need rage to transform into SS if you're a prodigy like Goten and Trunks.

There is different types of prodigies, Goten and Trunks have not shown any besides having a higher base power early on
Goku has shown far more talent than them and natural genious in combat (was called one by beerus) and he reached SS later in life
Cabbas natural potential could very well be him getting this far on his base form alone, the saiyans from U6 are different after all. So in that sense he is very much special, his natural fight instincts were emphasized on the manga
A saiyan strength is dependent on the strength of his foes and battles, he was involved in many battles in his universe which made him so strong
You are forgetting the key part: Vegeta told him if he kept training hard he would reach SSB someday, and to surpass him even though he wont fall behind
If he was Android Saga fodder, he would not have received such words from Vegeta

Yes they have. The author (did he say it or did a guidebook say it? whatever) said himself that Saiyans born without a tail were the greatest prodigies. If Cabba is in the same vein as Goten and Trunks, then why can't he go Super Saiyan too?

He didnt say that, he said that allows them to turn SS faster/easier. Ever since Androd Saga SS alone is the bare minimum you need to be relevant, is nearly worthless on Majin saga and fodder material on super. Being a SS alone doesn't make you a prodigy, having higher base power without needing to go SS makes you one, being a genius in combat makes you one. There are many ways in which a warrior can show talent

SS is not the be all end all, SS is just a boost. Elder kaoishin said ss transformation is not everything

Hit is a super-ultra-mega-prodigy just like Frieza, that's why.

So Cabba is a super ultra prodigy then, case closed. If its that easy for you accept it then Cabbas level should be a non issue for you
You also, conveniently ignored the fact that Whis trained goku and vegeta to master their base forms and they then again trained on the rosat using yheir base form for 3 years

So in essence: Correct me if I'm wrong? The only contradiction you see on the manga is the U6 arc because you dont accept Cabba being strong
If that all it is, this confusion should clear pretty fast once the next chapters arrive, if the arc left you any doubt in the anime the anime already shown us what base goku and vegeta are capable of in vs a SS3 gotenks

That's a completely ridiculous claim. GINYU of all people was considered one of the strongest people in the universe by Frieza.
U6 has incredibly impressive power levels even if they're all around SPC level.

You are being facetious here, the context of the saga is what is at stake
During Frieza saga beerus didn't exist, he was a new invention that was added to frieza plot.
Whenever a new saga develops, a new power scale is seen. You will see this more clearly whenever we see the all universe tournament arc

Bold: opinion not a fact

[Cabba]

Hit has a good reason for being so strong: he's a thousand years old and he's physically active still. He's probably the only member of the U6 team who's level of strength makes sense.

The strength of a saiyan is dependent of the battles his takes place and the strength of his enemies, plus they had a different evolution process
It makes sense for cabba to be SS3+ tier, since he fought powerful foes all over the universe

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

That's a completely ridiculous claim. GINYU of all people was considered one of the strongest people in the universe by Frieza.

U6 has incredibly impressive power levels even if they're all around SPC level.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. The Ginyu example has nothing to do with the point I'm making. You're taking a standard from way back and trying to apply it to the newer canon. Also, Freeza said he had no idea anyone in the universe were above Ginyu. I guess Ginyu was also above King Cold, too.... That's not even considering the fact that the U6 fighters are in an entirely different universe in the first place. Things change. Freeza was considered the most powerful being in the universe that the Z-warriors fought....only for Androids created on Earth to be far stronger than that. Why is this an issue with beings in another universe?

DB/Z/Super is a story where progression is the main factor. Goku made it clear when talking about Dabra that someone on Cell's level would've been an issue many yrs back. What does that tell us? The equivalent of Cell is a weakling by the Boo saga because they've gotten much stronger. An endless effort to create reasons on why the newer opponents are piss weak goes against everything this series has been about since the beginning.

Good points, Cabba.

[ekrolo2]

Hit has a good reason for being so strong: he's a thousand years old and he's physically active still. He's probably the only member of the U6 team who's level of strength makes sense.

The strength of a saiyan is dependent of the battles his takes place and the strength of his enemies, plus they had a different evolution process
It makes sense for cabba to be SS3+ tier, since he fought powerful foes all over the universe

Him fighting powerful warriors and getting that strong is fine, just don't expect me to believe he'd reach that level and NEVER get into an emotionally unstable enough place where he could've transformed into a Super Saiyan. Not just him, but any Saiyan before him either. That's why they should've just made U6s Saiyan's different from the main ones by simply having their base forms be their strongest ones while "ours" need transformations.

Expecting me to believe that no Saiyan, in the HISTORY of the ENTIRE species NEVER got angry enough to transform into a Super Saiyan is not going to happen any time this century. Especially since Cabba's outburst isn't anything special really, all he does is get threatened by some random asshole he's fighting. Because y'know, no other random asshole he's ever fought has threatened to kill him, his family and his planet. Evil people don't do that. And yes, I'm being sarcastic in these last two sentences.

[brett wheeler]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare. Here is my thought out proof of my counter argument:

Making it as easy and short as possible, let's gather what we know first:

1) Master Roshi mentioned vegeta finally suprassing goku
2) Heavily supressed beerus called enraged mutation vegeta more fun then with other Saiyan(reference to his fight with ssj3 goku)
3) Goku who was watching vegeta's rage against beerus was impressed and praised him for suprassing him.

So, what we know Enraged vegeta was at least above ssj3 goku, which means above post rosat ss gotenks buu arc. Now taking in consideration how goku is straight forward and easy going person he always say what he has on his mind/head, so eariler after encountering and having short duel with beerus, goku was not just impressed by glimpse of beerus's power but even mentioned fusion wouldn't work on him.(buu arc ss vegetto), wether he meant ss vegetto as we have seen him or full power is up to speculation, but more shows to fp. Now we know that goku only claimed enraged vegeta suprassed him, but nothing he said about fusion, which means fusion as potara fusion would still beat enraged vegeta.

10% beerus > ss vegetto bog arc > ss vegetto buu arc > enraged vegeta > bog ss3 goku
10% beerus > combined ki failed ritual ss goku

combined ki failed ritual ss goku =? ss vegetto

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

so: buu arc ss vegetto > enraged vegeta > base goku/vegeta/Cabba or Frost or magenta(not full powered).

Of course ss vegetto is not by any degree weak opponent. To be honset I see ss goku/vegeta being less or more equal to full power ss vegetto(buu arc or bog arc)

thats not exactly acurate I agree that ssj vegito is still a strong character but judging by how the anime and manga interpret beerus strength compared to base goku/vegeta we can say base goku/vegeta is way stronger than ssj3 gotenks even ultimate gohan so you would have to at the leat place tham on buuhan lvl and since super goes off the manga in witch vegetto couldnt beat buuhan in base and had to go ssj to do so ssj goku/vegeta are a good bit stronger than ssj vegetto and from whats been happening so far even as a ssj3 goku isnt on a godly lvl meaning even 400 times buuhan isnt on a god lvl so we can assume that the list is

10%beerus>rage vegeta>ssj3 goku u6 arc>ssj3 vegetto buu arc >ssj2 goku/vegeta u6 arc>ssj goku/vegeta u6 arc>ssj2 vegetto buu arc>ssj vegetto buu arc>base goku/vegeta U6 arc>base vegetto buu arc

thats what we can gather from the pile of shit the power scaling is in super but thats the best way that can make sense to me and keep to the original power scaling too

[Cabba]

Him fighting powerful warriors and getting that strong is fine, just don't expect me to believe he'd reach that level and NEVER get into an emotionally unstable enough place where he could've transformed into a Super Saiyan. Not just him, but any Saiyan before him either. That's why they should've just made U6s Saiyan's different from the main ones by simply having their base forms be their strongest ones while "ours" need transformations.

There is a perfectly good explanation for cabba not knowing the SS transformation, it was a plot element for Vegeta to teach it to him and have a student/master moment
Besides that we already know their evolutionary process is different, he always fought outside his home for others so his loved ones were never in immediate danger which is was triggered Gokus, Gohan and FT trunks SS trnaformation: The death of a loved one
Cabba seems like a calm and calculating fellow he wont get his emotions get in the way of battle, he never had his loved ones in the trenches probably and probably never had an enemy leagues above him without his other saiyan fellows as backup

Expecting me to believe that no Saiyan, in the HISTORY of the ENTIRE species NEVER got angry enough to transform into a Super Saiyan is not going to happen any time this century. Especially since Cabba's outburst isn't anything special really, all he does is get threatened by some random asshole he's fighting. Because y'know, no other random asshole he's ever fought has threatened to kill him, his family and his planet. Evil people don't do that. And yes, I'm being sarcastic in these last two sentences.

Thats exactly it, good point. This goes to show you, him not being a SS was merely a plot element for the master/student troop

[Chiki]

There's nothing ridiculous about it. The Ginyu example has nothing to do with the point I'm making. You're taking a standard from way back and trying to apply it to the newer canon.

You said anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak. This is a universal tournament. Ginyu was one of the strongest people in U7. Therefore, Ginyu is strong and to say "anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak" is false. That's why it is ridiculous.

Also, Freeza said he had no idea anyone in the universe were above Ginyu. I guess Ginyu was also above King Cold, too.... That's not even considering the fact that the U6 fighters are in an entirely different universe in the first place. Things change. Freeza was considered the most powerful being in the universe that the Z-warriors fought....only for Androids created on Earth to be far stronger than that. Why is this an issue with beings in another universe?

[/quote]

This doesn't change the fact that Ginyu is still one of the strongest people in U7.

It's not an entirely different universe. They're TWIN universes. They're meant to be incredibly similar with even counterparts for many important figures in U7. There's no reason for the power levels to be wildly different in U6 compared to U7. The guys in U6 are already extremely impressive; thinking they're SSG level or above is just silly and completely unnecessary with the two base theory in the manga that was already confirmed anyway. I don't know why you guys are so interested in cheapening the idea of SSG and Gods and universal threats like Buu.

[ekrolo2]

Him fighting powerful warriors and getting that strong is fine, just don't expect me to believe he'd reach that level and NEVER get into an emotionally unstable enough place where he could've transformed into a Super Saiyan. Not just him, but any Saiyan before him either. That's why they should've just made U6s Saiyan's different from the main ones by simply having their base forms be their strongest ones while "ours" need transformations.

There is a perfectly good explanation for cabba not knowing the SS transformation, it was a plot element for Vegeta to teach it to him and have a student/master moment
Besides that we already know their evolutionary process is different, he always fought outside his home for others so his loved ones were never in immediate danger which is was triggered Gokus, Gohan and FT trunks SS trnaformation: The death of a loved one
Cabba seems like a calm and calculating fellow he wont get his emotions get in the way of battle, he never had his loved ones in the trenches probably and probably never had an enemy leagues above him without his other saiyan fellows as backup

Expecting me to believe that no Saiyan, in the HISTORY of the ENTIRE species NEVER got angry enough to transform into a Super Saiyan is not going to happen any time this century. Especially since Cabba's outburst isn't anything special really, all he does is get threatened by some random asshole he's fighting. Because y'know, no other random asshole he's ever fought has threatened to kill him, his family and his planet. Evil people don't do that. And yes, I'm being sarcastic in these last two sentences.

Thats exactly it, good point. This goes to show you, him not being a SS was merely a plot element for the master/student troop

So what if its a plot point? That doesn't make it good by default. Cabba is a warrior, who goes out and fights in wars, with other warriors he knows, you cannot, you CANNOT expect me to believe that in such circumstances he'd never be put in a situation where he's being emotionally tested by the difficulties of combat or that he was never in a situation where a friend or even relative was in danger of dying or worse.

So, in the entire history of the U6 Saiyan race, a species comprised of fighters who knowingly train and go out to fight wars, some of the most physically and emotionally experiences you can have, none of them EEEEVVVVEERRRR got into a situation similar to Goku's on Namek or Trunks in the future timeline where their level of power and emotional stress got them to become Super Saiyan's? Never? Not once? For a warrior species? Who fight in wars? Where people die all the time and you're pushed to your absolute limits? Nope, that's contrived to the nth degree. The equivalent to writing a book about a hardened ex-military badass who fought in WW1, WW2, Korea, Nam and NEVER saw anyone die and has no concept of what death is!

You know how this could be fixed? Don't give the U6 Saiyan's transformations, actually make them evolve differently so their only forms are their base states: no transformations. Or if you want to give them some, give them different pre-requisites. I mean, how the fuck have these guys never gotten a Super Saiyan God? They never pooled their energy into one fighter in a desparate situation ala GT? Really? They're all nice guys, Super Saiyan regular seems to function pretty much the same so why aren't all of these guys Gods?

[HeroR]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

That's a completely ridiculous claim. GINYU of all people was considered one of the strongest people in the universe by Frieza.

U6 has incredibly impressive power levels even if they're all around SPC level.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. The Ginyu example has nothing to do with the point I'm making. You're taking a standard from way back and trying to apply it to the newer canon. Also, Freeza said he had no idea anyone in the universe were above Ginyu. I guess Ginyu was also above King Cold, too.... That's not even considering the fact that the U6 fighters are in an entirely different universe in the first place. Things change. Freeza was considered the most powerful being in the universe that the Z-warriors fought....only for Androids created on Earth to be far stronger than that. Why is this an issue with beings in another universe?

DB/Z/Super is a story where progression is the main factor. Goku made it clear when talking about Dabra that someone on Cell's level would've been an issue many yrs back. What does that tell us? The equivalent of Cell is a weakling by the Boo saga because they've gotten much stronger. An endless effort to create reasons on why the newer opponents are piss weak goes against everything this series has been about since the beginning.

Good points, Cabba.

Very true, Goku and Vegeta scoffed at someone who was as strong as Perfect Cell, who was considered invincible just seven years ago. Why would Goku and Vegeta consider the fighters of U6 powerful if they were only as strong as Perfect Cell, who they rolled their eyes at before?

This attempt to make the U6 fighters weak because fans hate that Cabba can kick Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks' ass even before he became a Super Saiyan is just sad at this point. Just because Freeza was considered the peak of U7 before Gero cooked Cell in his basement and Majin Buu was awakening, doesn't mean another universe with its own history and people has to follow the same standards.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You said anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak. This is a universal tournament. Ginyu was one of the strongest people in U7. Therefore, Ginyu is strong and to say "anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak" is false. That's why it is ridiculous.

Because it is. If Ginyu joined the U6 tournament, his status as one of the strongest in the universe would've been rendered irrelevant. Why? He would've been knocked out too fast for it to even matter. The fact that you have to go as far back as the Namek saga to use Ginyu as an example proves my point.

This doesn't change the fact that Ginyu is still one of the strongest people in U7.

Back when 120k was considered impressive. That's a laughable level to the fake Androids of all characters.

It's not an entirely different universe. They're TWIN universes. They're meant to be incredibly similar with even counterparts for many important figures in U7. There's no reason for the power levels to be wildly different in U6 compared to U7. The guys in U6 are already extremely impressive; thinking they're SSG level or above is just silly and completely unnecessary with the two base theory in the manga that was already confirmed anyway. I don't know why you guys are so interested in cheapening the idea of SSG and Gods and universal threats like Buu.

And yet they're much different. Is there someone in U7 that can send attacks to another dimension? Is there someone in U7 that can improve throughout the battle? Is there a Metal Man in U7? Therefore, they differ enough where the typical power-scale of U7 will doesn't need to transfer to U6. Where was the theory confirmed?

@HeroR. I agree. I don't really see why the U6 being above Boo saga beings is an issue. Everyone else is strong, so making the competition stronger is a natural thing to do. The series has been doing this from the very beginning, anyway.