Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Good question, how does Piccolo relate to base Goku and Gohan and Trunks and Frost?

Piccolo is weaker than everyone here. He could only challenge Goku as long as his ki is disordered.

[Bullza]

Good question, how does Piccolo relate to base Goku and Gohan and Trunks and Frost?

He was shown to be on par with Base Gohan who was on par with Tagoma.

I wouldn't put Tagoma near any of those you mentioned.

[namekiansaiyan]

Good question, how does Piccolo relate to base Goku and Gohan and Trunks and Frost?

Piccolo is weaker than everyone here. He could only challenge Goku as long as his ki is disordered.

I think he meant even if he went SSB, Goku would not be able to beat him as he could not control himself.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Tagoma was above both Base Gohan and Piccolo. Neither could do anything to him.

[Beyond]

This thread is hard to understand. Can someone compare Piccolo's current power with something from Z like cell? I have him at around ASSJ Vegeta by buu saga. I can't tell if he got weaker or stronger in super. Base Goku is all over the place as well. I know about the two base theory, but don't believe toei or Toriyama is that competent. Trying to figure out super's power levels is like trying to solve a millennium prize problem.

[Bullza]

Tagoma was above both Base Gohan and Piccolo. Neither could do anything to him.

That's because Gohan was tired. He did say he had power comparable to him when he was at 100%.

This thread is hard to understand. Can someone compare Piccolo's current power with something from Z like cell?

It's tricky to say. For simplicity I'd say Piccolo was slightly stronger than Tagoma and I'd guess he was perhaps Cell Jr ~ Perfect Cell level.

[HeroR]

Does the newest episode of Super imply that Gohan is weaker than his Cell Games self now?

Yes, it does.

It really doesn't. All Trunks said that he didn't feel the same level as ki as before, and he said this when Gohan is chilling and happily eating ice cream. What would he show the same level of ki compared to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who was going berserk on Cell? And we already saw that even a weakened Gohan is stronger than Piccolo without transforming into a Super Saiyan.

This thread is hard to understand. Can someone compare Piccolo's current power with something from Z like cell? I have him at around ASSJ Vegeta by buu saga. I can't tell if he got weaker or stronger in super. Base Goku is all over the place as well. I know about the two base theory, but don't believe toei or Toriyama is that competent. Trying to figure out super's power levels is like trying to solve a millennium prize problem.

Goku and Vegeta's bases are not hard to pin down or do they fluctuant.

After Goku absorbed godhood, his base became much stronger even without god energy. Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus, while base form and Super Saiyan Goku was able to take hits, give a good fight, and even punch a blaster buster. So by the end of the Battle of Gods Saga Goku's base form >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The main argument is if base form Goku is as stronger as Super Saiyan God or a little weaker, and it is Super Saiyan Goku who is as strong as Super Saiyan God.

As shown later, by the time of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku and Vegeta's base forms are much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. This is a combination of their training with Whis and the extra three years of training they did the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. So, anyone who can challenged Goku and Vegeta's base forms are stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (whether you like it or not).

As for Piccolo, there is no hard proof that he has gotten much stronger since the Buu Saga (who we have no idea how strong he was then either) since no one has commented on Piccolo's growth. We can assumed he has gotten stronger since Piccolo always trains and he trained Gohan for eight months to get him back in shape. However, it is safe to assume that he is much weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks since such a power jump would get some comment from someone, even if it is just a one word sentence. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks also didn't seem to regress in strength so Vegeta didn't say anything about Gotenks being weaker. Copy-Vegeta in fact praised Gotenks effects before trying to kill him.

[LowRyder2005]

I didn't see the episode, but it's clear that if he said that he was using his base as a measuring stick form back from the aftermath of the Cell Game. I don't think he'd imagine Base Gohan out of everyone to be stronger than his SS2 or his SS self.
As for the base weakened Gohan > Piccolo from ROF I think it's an interesting detail, but I'd be more inclined to theorize that Gohan was channeling some part of his Chou form and that he'd normally be weaker than Piccolo, at least at this point.

[Alee9977]

Well Piccolo was able to stop punches of Final Form Frost, although he was tired.
So we can say that Frost is slightly stronger than Piccolo but if we follow that way, then Piccolo is not even a match for SSJ Goku or SSJ Vegeta.
Base Goku, who is above old SSJ3 Goku, can fight hand to hand with Assault Mode Frost, we don't know although it is pretty sure that he needs the SSJ to defeat Final Form Frost.
And with this information we can say that Piccolo is stronger than old SSJ3 Goku but weaker than today SSJ Goku. In fact, we can say that he is stronger than Base Goku, but Goku with ki disorder saying he would definetily lost against Piccolo confuses me a little, he was saying that because he won't be able to transform or he is confirming that his base state is stronger than Piccolo?

[HeroR]

Well Piccolo was able to stop punches of Final Form Frost, although he was tired.
So we can say that Frost is slightly stronger than Piccolo but if we follow that way, then Piccolo is not even a match for SSJ Goku or SSJ Vegeta.
Base Goku, who is above old SSJ3 Goku, can fight hand to hand with Assault Mode Frost, we don't know although it is pretty sure that he needs the SSJ to defeat Final Form Frost.
And with this information we can say that Piccolo is stronger than old SSJ3 Goku but weaker than today SSJ Goku. In fact, we can say that he is stronger than Base Goku, but Goku with ki disorder saying he would definetily lost against Piccolo confuses me a little, he was saying that because he won't be able to transform or he is confirming that his base state is stronger than Piccolo?

Piccolo didn't stop any of Frost's punches. He blocked while backing away, which is something you are taught to do in martial arts to reduced the impact of an attack. That is how Frost nearly rung out Piccolo because he slowly pushed him towards the edge of the ring. Frost was also going easy on Piccolo, something Piccolo blast Frost on when he got him trapped.

Also, base form Goku was stronger than Freeza's true form after he trained for four months. Freeza in his first form killed Piccolo with a well placed Death Beam. Assault Form Frost was able to hit Goku when final form Freeza couldn't touch Goku without cheating. Meaning at the very least, Frost's third form is stronger than true form Freeza, and this is after Goku trained for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

So, for Piccolo to be anywhere near Goku's base form, he had to make the jump from being killed by first form Freeza to being stronger than him in just eight months. Since this is Dragon Ball, it isn't impossible, but to for Piccolo to have such a big power jump and no one says anything about it, I don't see it. Even Gohan got some acknowledgement that he had got stronger in eight months of training by how Goku reacted when he examined Gohan when he asked to be on the U7 team. There is also the fact that neither Goku and Vegeta really wanted Piccolo. Vegeta wanted Gohan, and Goku wanted the reborn Kid Buu. They literally took Piccolo because he was the next strongest after Gohan and Fat Buu.

[Hugo Boss]

Good question, how does Piccolo relate to base Goku and Gohan and Trunks and Frost?

Piccolo is weaker than everyone here. He could only challenge Goku as long as his ki is disordered.

I think he meant even if he went SSB, Goku would not be able to beat him as he could not control himself.

No, Goku couldn't even fly properly that time, let alone go SSB.

Does the newest episode of Super imply that Gohan is weaker than his Cell Games self now?

Yes, it does.

It really doesn't. All Trunks said that he didn't feel the same level as ki as before, and he said this when Gohan is chilling and happily eating ice cream. What would he show the same level of ki compared to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who was going berserk on Cell? And we already saw that even a weakened Gohan is stronger than Piccolo without transforming into a Super Saiyan.

Actually, Trunks doesn't refer to Gohan while he is normal, he simply doesn't feel like Gohan can output the same power he used against Cell.

In fact, we can say that he is stronger than Base Goku, but Goku with ki disorder saying he would definetily lost against Piccolo confuses me a little, he was saying that because he won't be able to transform or he is confirming that his base state is stronger than Piccolo?

Goku is implying Piccolo can beat him if he is in such a bad condition, otherwise he can't. Basically, Piccolo can keep up with Frost, while he is very tired, and probably defeat Goku while he is sick, so it would go like this: Very tired Frost > Base Goku > Piccolo > Sick Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

So what's up now, dragonbros? Gohan at the Cell Games is confirmed as stronger than the current Gohan?

[Lionel]

Piccolo's effectively in the same position as Krillin, Tenshinhan and Yamcha in the Android arc. We assume they've made gains but no one makes any note of it because it's immaterial to the plot. His power doesn't matter and neither does his character, period, because it's evident that Toriyama and the anime writers are only concerned with pedestaling the worn and haggard Saiyan seniors. Personally? I think it's telling that Frost needed to resort to a poison needle in incapacitating Piccolo rather than just forcibly break the Namekian appendage's grip on him à la Goku with Giran's Merry-Go-Round Gum. The implication is that he was incapable of doing so in spite of being stronger. After that, Vegeta apparently feels it's necessary to transform so he can dominate Frost. Is that because he doesn't feel like Base is enough to dominate or because Super Saiyan is more fitting in wiping Frost out?

[buutenks]

Ok i watched the episode with subs, but the idea that current gohan is weaker than his cell saga self never crossed my mind. I mere thought, trunks is comparing the savageness of kid gohan to his adult calm self.

Plus why would he compare base form to ssj2 lol .So, nope that was simply what trunks imagined gohan to be and what the real gohan is, a peaceful person who doesnt enjoy violance, and prefers a quiet life.

As for piccolo vs frost, goku thought buu is crazy strong once mad, but didnt mention anything for piccolo after he trained. So most likely frost was heavily weakened and proly wasnt taking the fight seriously vs piccolo.

Tho as for the rest of the fighters, base cabba showed he is as powerful as base vegeta, and so did frost.

So u6 team are very powerful by buu saga standards. But only hit is powerful by BOG/ROF standards.

[namekiansaiyan]

Ok i watched the episode with subs, but the idea that current gohan is weaker than his cell saga self never crossed my mind. I mere thought, trunks is comparing the savageness of kid gohan to his adult calm self.

Plus why would he compare base form to ssj2 lol .So, nope that was simply what trunks imagined gohan to be and what the real gohan is, a peaceful person who doesnt enjoy violance, and prefers a quiet life.

As for piccolo vs frost, goku thought buu is crazy strong once mad, but didnt mention anything for piccolo after he trained. So most likely frost was heavily weakened and proly wasnt taking the fight seriously vs piccolo.

Tho as for the rest of the fighters, base cabba showed he is as powerful as base vegeta, and so did frost.

So u6 team are very powerful by buu saga standards. But only hit is powerful by BOG/ROF standards.

Why would Frost not take the fight seriously if he is heavily weakened. What you are saying makes no sense.
He was definitely was taking it seriously but always knew he could cheat.

[buutenks]

Why would Frost not take the fight seriously if he is heavily weakened. What you are saying makes no sense.
He was definitely was taking it seriously but always knew he could cheat.

It's called being cocky, I guess.
Even while weakened, he knew he was still more powerful and he had his trump card. So he wasn't using all the strength he had left.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's called being cocky, I guess.
Even while weakened, he knew he was still more powerful and he had his trump card. So he wasn't using all the strength he had left.

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[Alee9977]

I see Gohan as strong as he was at the beggining of Buu arc, maybe stronger.
But what the hell is Trunks trying to sense? There is a world of difference between Gohan relaxed and Gohan angry. Of course he won't feel the same power he felt when Gohan was angry and SSJ2.
Are there any indications that Gohan got weaker or we only know that he stopped fighting?

[Bullza]

Well Trunks would know Gohan was relaxed so I'm sure he'd take that into account.

Goku was relaxed when Beerus was able to determine that he was weaker than Frieza but he didn't seem to be able to gauge how stronger he was as a Super Saiyan.

So perhaps Trunks is only comparing Gohan's base power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan? That way Base Gohan could be perhaps equivalent to SSJ Teen Gohan and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo.

[buutenks]

It's called being cocky, I guess.
Even while weakened, he knew he was still more powerful and he had his trump card. So he wasn't using all the strength he had left.

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