Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Beyond]

Well Trunks would know Gohan was relaxed so I'm sure he'd take that into account.

Goku was relaxed when Beerus was able to determine that he was weaker than Frieza but he didn't seem to be able to gauge how stronger he was as a Super Saiyan.

So perhaps Trunks is only comparing Gohan's base power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan? That way Base Gohan could be perhaps equivalent to SSJ Teen Gohan and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo.

If that's the case, Trunks should assume Gohan is very strong and be amazed. It only makes sense if base Gohan is weaker than base Gohan from the cell arc. If that's the case, Gohan either got nerfed even more since RoF or Piccolo was nerfed like Gohan in RoF. I'm assuming it's the former. It looks like current base Gohan is weaker than RoF base Gohan who was around Piccolo.

[namekiansaiyan]

Do people even use Gohan to compare power levels as he is decreasing all the time and no knows exactly where he is right now.

[Bullza]

Well Trunks would know Gohan was relaxed so I'm sure he'd take that into account.

Goku was relaxed when Beerus was able to determine that he was weaker than Frieza but he didn't seem to be able to gauge how stronger he was as a Super Saiyan.

So perhaps Trunks is only comparing Gohan's base power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan? That way Base Gohan could be perhaps equivalent to SSJ Teen Gohan and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo.

If that's the case, Trunks should assume Gohan is very strong and be amazed. It only makes sense if base Gohan is weaker than base Gohan from the cell arc. If that's the case, Gohan either got nerfed even more since RoF or Piccolo was nerfed like Gohan in RoF. I'm assuming it's the former. It looks like current base Gohan is weaker than RoF base Gohan who was around Piccolo.

If you ignored the scene with Gohan being retrained as just being non canon or that was simply the first and last time he trained with Piccolo then it'd make sense he'd be even weaker still. Is this supposed to be a year or more since Resurrection F?

Perhaps it could be something like

Base Gohan (RoF) =/= SSJ Teen Gohan > Piccolo = Base Gohan (U6) > Base Teen Gohan > Base Gohan (now)

Piccolo didn't get a strenght boost to match Gohan in the Champa saga afterall but more so that Gohan further deteriorated down to his level.

[Beyond]

Well Trunks would know Gohan was relaxed so I'm sure he'd take that into account.

Goku was relaxed when Beerus was able to determine that he was weaker than Frieza but he didn't seem to be able to gauge how stronger he was as a Super Saiyan.

So perhaps Trunks is only comparing Gohan's base power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan? That way Base Gohan could be perhaps equivalent to SSJ Teen Gohan and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo.

If that's the case, Trunks should assume Gohan is very strong and be amazed. It only makes sense if base Gohan is weaker than base Gohan from the cell arc. If that's the case, Gohan either got nerfed even more since RoF or Piccolo was nerfed like Gohan in RoF. I'm assuming it's the former. It looks like current base Gohan is weaker than RoF base Gohan who was around Piccolo.

If you ignored the scene with Gohan being retrained as just being non canon or that was simply the first and last time he trained with Piccolo then it'd make sense he'd be even weaker still. Is this supposed to be a year or more since Resurrection F?

Perhaps it could be something like

Base Gohan (RoF) =/= SSJ Teen Gohan > Piccolo = Base Gohan (U6) > Base Teen Gohan > Base Gohan (now)

Piccolo didn't get a strenght boost to match Gohan in the Champa saga afterall but more so that Gohan further deteriorated down to his level.

Sounds pretty good (well, not for Gohan and Piccolo) . It's been one hell of a roller coaster ride but things are starting to come together somewhat.

[Kishido]

So starting training again after RoF made him weaker? LOL what... But well this TOEI and Toriyama giving no fucks

[Bullza]

So starting training again after RoF made him weaker? LOL what... But well this TOEI and Toriyama giving no fucks

The way the series is adapted makes it a little complicated not knowing what ideas came from Toriyama or Toei.

It was surely Toei's idea to have Gohan retrain but that likely wasn't intended as far as Toriyama was concerned because that was never mentioned in the manga. If Toriyama also doesn't intend for him to fight anytime soon then this could just be Toei's way of doing a 180 and implying that he really has given up fighting and grew even weaker.

So I think maybe Toei messed up big time there by including that.

From an in universe perspective maybe Gohan had only just started training. I don't know how much time was supposed to have passed since the end of the RoF arc and him fighting Piccolo.

[HeroR]

Well Trunks would know Gohan was relaxed so I'm sure he'd take that into account.

Goku was relaxed when Beerus was able to determine that he was weaker than Frieza but he didn't seem to be able to gauge how stronger he was as a Super Saiyan.

So perhaps Trunks is only comparing Gohan's base power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan? That way Base Gohan could be perhaps equivalent to SSJ Teen Gohan and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo.

From the translation I saw, he only saw he doesn't fell the fierce energy from before, which can easily mean that Gohan is extremely calm, and not like the angry Super Saiyan 2 he remembers. Gohan is also relaxed even compared to Future Gohan since Trunks notes that he has never seen Gohan so happy.

[TheMikado]

Why would Frost not take the fight seriously if he is heavily weakened. What you are saying makes no sense.
He was definitely was taking it seriously but always knew he could cheat.

It's called being cocky, I guess.
Even while weakened, he knew he was still more powerful and he had his trump card. So he wasn't using all the strength he had left.

? That doesn't make much sense. If I'm already tired why would a drag out the fight longer against a weaker but fresh opponent?

[Kishido]

So starting training again after RoF made him weaker? LOL what... But well this TOEI and Toriyama giving no fucks

The way the series is adapted makes it a little complicated not knowing what ideas came from Toriyama or Toei.

It was surely Toei's idea to have Gohan retrain but that likely wasn't intended as far as Toriyama was concerned because that was never mentioned in the manga. If Toriyama also doesn't intend for him to fight anytime soon then this could just be Toei's way of doing a 180 and implying that he really has given up fighting and grew even weaker.

So I think maybe Toei messed up big time there by including that.

From an in universe perspective maybe Gohan had only just started training. I don't know how much time was supposed to have passed since the end of the RoF arc and him fighting Piccolo.

I'm sorry but I doubt this theory Toriyama hasn't written the story just some weeks ago for sure so TOEI should know the future story long before the statement about Gohan training again.

So him being even weaker as in RoF makes no sense... But well the power levels are all over the place after all

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's because Gohan was tired. He did say he had power comparable to him when he was at 100%.

Eating a senzu doesn't restore all of your energy now?

[Bullza]

That's because Gohan was tired. He did say he had power comparable to him when he was at 100%.

Eating a senzu doesn't restore all of your energy now?

I can't remember the order things played out now. All I remember was Gohan saying something about Tagoma having power comparable to his peak and Herms said that in this scenario his "peak" was referring to if he were 100% healthy and fresh.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan said it right before any of them fought Tagoma. This was immediately after Tagoma powered-up. Since Gohan had just eaten a senzu, I assumed he would've had all of his power available. This was before Gohan realized he could no longer become Ultimate, though.

[Bullza]

Looks like Black is going to have a Super Saiyan form probably of no surprise to anybody.

I wonder if it's either Blacks version of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or if it's the next level up from Blue.

It'll probably put Black on a level strong enough to fight Super Saiyan Blue Goku though.

[brett wheeler]

That's because Gohan was tired. He did say he had power comparable to him when he was at 100%.

Eating a senzu doesn't restore all of your energy now?

I can't remember the order things played out now. All I remember was Gohan saying something about Tagoma having power comparable to his peak and Herms said that in this scenario his "peak" was referring to if he were 100% healthy and fresh.

while this is very possible you have to remember after word gohan then attacked tagoma ( if I remember correctly ) and was surprised that he couldn't use his mystic power, and than tagoma said he was unimpressed by gohan. So the way I see it gohan thought tagoma was nearing his peak at 100% witch could be interpreted as he thought he could still use mystic but then later figured out he couldn't atleast not without ssj.

[supercat]

Tagoma hovering around Ultimate Gohan tier seems quite fitting in my opinion. This is Dragon Ball; new arcs usually entail characters setting new benchmarks. There have been plenty of instances where even side villains have at the very least rivaled the previous arc's top villain.

Raditz > Piccolo (Dragon Ball's top villain)

Nappa (side villain) > Raditz (main villain)

Vegeta (main villain) > Raditz (main villain)

Zarbon / Dodoria (side villains) > Vegeta (main villain) - this one could go either way, as the duo was weaker than Vegeta's Great Ape incarnation; that said, they were at least stronger than anything short of said transformation. Even Cui was stated to be on par with Saiyan Arc Vegeta, a force that was unfathomable by the previous arc's standards.

Ginyu (side villain) > Vegeta (main villain) - same situation as Zarbon and Dodoria.

First Form Frieza (weakest incarnation of the arc's main villain) > Vegeta (main villain) - even in his weakest form, the main villain was leagues above anything the previous main villain was able to muster.

Androids 19 / 20 (side villains) > / = or < / = Full Power Frieza (main villain) - Either way, both Gero and 19 were at the very least comparable to some top-tier power of Frieza's; another instance where side villains were depicted to be in a similar realm of power as a force that was deemed practically unstoppable just one arc prior.

Androids 17 and 18 (side villains) >> Full Power Frieza (main villain) - A perfect example of two side villains towering over their predecessor's pinnacle of strength.

In my opinion, these last two examples make far less sense than Tagoma and First Form Frieza surpassing Super Buu and Buuhan respectively. I mean, even if Gero didn't quite reach Full Power Frieza (Namek) tier, it's still a huge jump overall. A human scientist technologically enhancing his very existence to the point he could be somewhat comparable to some universal tyrant who was feared throughout the galaxy in my opinion makes far less sense than two aliens with preexisting reserves of power suddenly towering over another alien. And for those of you who believe Full Power Frieza (Namek) was leagues beyond Gero, we still have the Androids 17 and 18 comparison; two teenagers, technologically gaining the ability to beat down legendary warriors who were able to dethrone a being that ruled a large portion of the universe with strength alone.

Imperfect Cell (main villain's weakest form) > Full Power Frieza (main villain's full power)

Even though I could go on, I'll stop here, as I think I've more than proven my point.

First Form Frieza (RoF) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ginyu-Tagoma > / = Ultimate Gohan = Tagoma > Super Buu > Kid Buu

In my opinion, the power scale above is really no different than the following:

Imperfect Cell > Androids 17 and 18 > Full Power Frieza > / = Androids 19 and 20

or

Imperfect Cell > Androids 17 and 18 > Androids 19 and 20 > / = Full Power Frieza

[Chiki]

Ep 54 spoilers says:

[spoiler]Trunks is shocked at the huge gap in power between himself and Goku[/spoiler]

Seems like something happens in Ep 54. A lot of things should be clarified in a couple eps.

[TheMikado]

Tagoma hovering around Ultimate Gohan tier seems quite fitting in my opinion. This is Dragon Ball; new arcs usually entail characters setting new benchmarks. There have been plenty of instances where even side villains have at the very least rivaled the previous arc's top villain.

Raditz > Piccolo (Dragon Ball's top villain)

Nappa (side villain) > Raditz (main villain)

Vegeta (main villain) > Raditz (main villain)

Zarbon / Dodoria (side villains) > Vegeta (main villain) - this one could go either way, as the duo was weaker than Vegeta's Great Ape incarnation; that said, they were at least stronger than anything short of said transformation. Even Cui was stated to be on par with Saiyan Arc Vegeta, a force that was unfathomable by the previous arc's standards.

Ginyu (side villain) > Vegeta (main villain) - same situation as Zarbon and Dodoria.

First Form Frieza (weakest incarnation of the arc's main villain) > Vegeta (main villain) - even in his weakest form, the main villain was leagues above anything the previous main villain was able to muster.

Androids 19 / 20 (side villains) > / = or < / = Full Power Frieza (main villain) - Either way, both Gero and 19 were at the very least comparable to some top-tier power of Frieza's; another instance where side villains were depicted to be in a similar realm of power as a force that was deemed practically unstoppable just one arc prior.

Androids 17 and 18 (side villains) >> Full Power Frieza (main villain) - A perfect example of two side villains towering over their predecessor's pinnacle of strength.

In my opinion, these last two examples make far less sense than Tagoma and First Form Frieza surpassing Super Buu and Buuhan respectively. I mean, even if Gero didn't quite reach Full Power Frieza (Namek) tier, it's still a huge jump overall. A human scientist technologically enhancing his very existence to the point he could be somewhat comparable to some universal tyrant who was feared throughout the galaxy in my opinion makes far less sense than two aliens with preexisting reserves of power suddenly towering over another alien. And for those of you who believe Full Power Frieza (Namek) was leagues beyond Gero, we still have the Androids 17 and 18 comparison; two teenagers, technologically gaining the ability to beat down legendary warriors who were able to dethrone a being that ruled a large portion of the universe with strength alone.

Imperfect Cell (main villain's weakest form) > Full Power Frieza (main villain's full power)

Even though I could go on, I'll stop here, as I think I've more than proven my point.

First Form Frieza (RoF) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ginyu-Tagoma > / = Ultimate Gohan = Tagoma > Super Buu > Kid Buu

In my opinion, the power scale above is really no different than the following:

Imperfect Cell > Androids 17 and 18 > Full Power Frieza > / = Androids 19 and 20

or

Imperfect Cell > Androids 17 and 18 > Androids 19 and 20 > / = Full Power Frieza

They problem with this is that at this point the fish bowl was MUCH smaller. Similar to saying it's unbelievable that the US army couldn't stand against the intergalactic space armada that we just found out existed. The reason Super is different is because we know the God of Destruction is top tier of the universe and the VERY first thing Goku did is fight him. If the first thing Goku did was take on Buu it would make everything weaker than that not a real threat. More importantly it throws off the scaling. Even in the original Dragonball they didn't start out with Piccolo there was a progression of more and more power enemies.

Furthenmore after this last arc we now know the only thing about the gods and their attendants is the omniking and his guards so there's little left to discover powerswise. To our knowledge all people across all universes have to be BELOW the universe Gods power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So what's up now, dragonbros? Gohan at the Cell Games is confirmed as stronger than the current Gohan?

No, Trunks was comparing Gohan from then & now in terms of personality, not power. Currently, Gohan should be as strong as he was in the end of Boo arc.

In BoG arc, he was still at that level since he was obviously Ultimate Gohan & Super Saiyan didn't make him any stronger, but in FnF arc, he power had fallen to around Boo arc SS Gohan level at least in his base form, since FnF base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, and his Super Saiyan form makes him stronger, but still weaker than Ultimate Gohan. In U6 arc, we see him training with Piccolo again with his Ultimate traits slowly coming back (his hairstyle returned, but his eyes were still not outlined), and by the time Future Trunks arc started, Gohan looks like Ultimate Gohan once again & has stopped his training, so it appears that after he regained his power & skills, his training was complete.

In the 28th TB arc, we know from the guidebooks that he is still in the same level as he was in Boo arc, so it seems like Toei had the Gohan training with Piccolo sub-plot in the anime in order to fix that plot-hole which was created with FnF, since it doesn't appear that Gohan will have any fighting role from now on in the story.

[Bullza]

Right I'm so late to this but the newest episode had some interesting things.

Goku turns Super Saiyan against Zamasu and there's some comment how he'd fought Beerus like that and from what Herms has said

Zamasu says going Super Saiyan increases Goku's ki "several times over...no, several dozen times over!" Thereby proving things about stuff.

That fits with the form still making them 50x more powerful and with the Vegeta and Cabba fight but it does not fit with some other things possibly.

So either

1. Super Saiyan is roughly as strong as Super Saiyan God as was shown during the fight with Beerus and Base is 1/50th of that or...

2. Base is roughly as strong as Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan is 50 times stronger than that.

I'd say #1 is much more likely and with how strong SSJG is supposed to be, even more powerful than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito even, then even at 1/50th of that he could still be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Goku said Zamasu was much stronger than his Supreme Kai but clearly wasn't as strong as SSJG Goku but would seemingly be stronger than him in Base.

[apex_pretador]

Notable from recent episode :

- SS2 goku > Zamasu
- Black >= SS2 goku
- Zamasu has room for improvement
- His fighting style resembles beerus
- Zamasu > U7 kaioshins (possibly including kibitoshin) , which is obviuos because current goku >>> Buu arc goku, who as a SS1 was > Kaioshin.